Debates of October 18, 2006 (day 10)

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to recognize a new constituent, a new regional director, Mr. Andrew Johnston, as well as former constituents Jim and Terry Villeneuve. Mahsi cho.

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Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to recognize and congratulate Mr. Andy Short for being the new regional director in the Sahtu region. He is the man. Thank you.

---Laughter

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Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the person's not my constituent but he's my brother, so I thought I better recognize my brother, Bob McLeod.

Hey!

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to recognize a constituent from Fort Smith, one of the new regional directors, Mr. Bob Sanderson who a way back in 1963 was also one of the supervisors at Breynat Hall when I was there in the junior boys' side.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, and I know it comes as no surprise to the Minister that I have issues about his issues and affordable housing initiative is the next big one on the block. It's rolling out now as we speak. Then, of course, there's also the Novel housing, which may roll out as well. These are big initiatives. We need good planning. As a former Member on this side of the House used to say, we need "blue chip information." We need good, recent information that's accurate and current.

Mr. Speaker, I had a chance previously to question the Minister about the rollout of the affordable housing initiative. I would like to ask the Minister here today, for the public record, what information is he using when he is assigning or allocating housing units to the various communities in the Northwest Territories? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as all government departments usually use the stats Bureau of Statistics that we do collect every four years. It was collected two years ago, along with Stats Canada and the NWT Bureau of Statistics. That is the basis of the information that we have used in determining exactly where the core needs are. But also internally we have done core needs surveys in all the communities in the Northwest Territories, as we had a long debate in this House where a motion was passed to increase our core needs in some 20 communities throughout the Northwest Territories where our core needs exceed 30 percent in the majority of our communities in the Northwest Territories. So through the core needs surveys and the Statistics Bureau's information that's been provided, that's the basis of us making our decision.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I also mentioned in my Member's statement, when touring the communities we see boarded up houses, we see great numbers of pallets of building materials parked in people's front yards dated back three and four years. How can the Minister explain that? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Mr. Speaker, I do admit we do have housing packages in our communities, we do have boarded up units, but the fundamental reason in the majority of the cases is we are having a challenge by way of land allocation, getting the appropriate leases to acquire land to build on. The other situation is that we are presently in the process of replacing the majority of our public housing units in regards to the boarded up housing units that we are presently…Through the Affordable Housing Strategy, 50 percent of those units will be replacing existing public housing units by way of making more energy-efficient units available to communities by way of multi-configured housing. I think it is a challenge we are facing, but, through the affordable housing money that we do have, we are able to deal with a lot of these issues. I have been working with the community leaders, the aboriginal groups, to try to resolve some of these land issues in their communities and also trying to get these houses built within the timelines that we've set. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Krutko says that they have developed land availability issues in these communities, but he has a lot of boarded up, dilapidated units that are scheduled for replacement. Doesn't it make sense that land will be made available when you demolish the units that are being replaced? Is that the plan, or what do you plan to do with those? In conjunction with that, is it true -- I've heard this rumour, I don't know if it's true -- is it true that the Housing Corporation is collecting some kind of a grant or contribution from the federal government towards utilities on these dilapidated units? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, Mr. Speaker, like I said earlier, we are having some land approval issues, especially where areas of unsettled claims are. There are presently lease-only policies in place, and there's also the question about having the capacity to build. We do have a number of public housing units that are boarded up. Because of the cost it's going to take to renovate or replace these units, we are better off building new units, acquiring the land that they're on so that we are able to deliver the 530 units that we are going to build in those communities and take advantage of the lands that are presently available in those communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Well, to the supplementary I tried to sneak in on the last question, let me ask that question again. Currently, today, does the NWT Housing Corporation have boarded up, unoccupied units in the Northwest Territories for which they are collecting operations, maintenance and utilities subsidy from the federal government? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 112-15(5): Public Housing Allocations And Replacement Strategies

Mr. Speaker, as we know, a majority of the houses were constructed under federal aboriginal housing or, basically, federal housing programs in the past. The criteria for those housing dollars are that we do receive a subsidy for housing by way of $30 million. The $30 million are for the 2,300 units that we have in place to pay for the O and M costs of those units. So the Member is correct; those units are presently being funded under the federal social housing subsidy that we presently received. But I think the Members also have to realize that the subsidy is now presently declining. In the next 30 years the $30 million will be zero. So we are having to find new ways of having to offset the cost of operating the new units, but also realizing we do have to replace those units. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask questions to the Minister of Health and Social Services with regard to the statement I made and conversations I had with the Minister. Mr. Speaker, I am fully aware of the fact that as much as possible, we do not want to be sitting here talking about management and operations issues. That is not my intention to do micro-managing or anything like that. I am asking questions in the interest of maintaining the level of health care services that we do have and we cannot deliver the programs in health care without an acute care facility like the Stanton Territorial Hospital or all the employees who work within that.

It’s very important for me to raise these issues with the hope that the Minister and the management will listen and pay attention to these issues and address them. The Minister is well aware of these issues. Could the Minister indicate to us what he has done since our conversations with him yesterday? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what I have done, as Members are aware, as the honourable Member is aware, as is the Member for Kam Lake, I took notes on the issues that were raised to me. Some of them are labour relations, some of them are health and safety issues, about a page. I went from their office down to my office and I got on the speaker phone with the deputy minister. I went through the issues with him and talked about those issues and get together the information that we have to, to be able to speak to those issues. We are starting to look at the response. Some of the issues will probably require more detail, some of the labour relations ones. But, very clearly, we are very concerned and interested about the quality of care at Stanton and want to work with the Members and the general public, as well, to make sure we maintain the high levels of services that exist there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, the deputy minister of Health just recently came from there. There must be issues he’s aware of. I would think that the Minister would be well aware of this. My belief in this regard is that the regular reporting channel may not be the way to find out and address some of these issues. We are talking about very long-term employees, nurses, maintenance workers, front-line workers, leaving in droves because they feel very frustrated about the working conditions and lack of their ability to have input into the process. I would like to ask the Minister, aside from having the deputy minister and CEO looking at these issues, would he be willing to send an independent person to go in there? I don’t want a long-term strategy or consultant’s report, but would somebody look at the toxic working situation and see if we could come up with a set of workable short list of recommendations that we could address right away?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member makes some very sweeping statements. She indicated in her Member’s statement she met with six people at her constituency meeting. Stanton has over 500 employees. While I recognize there are employee concerns out there, very clearly we also have, for the most part, a facility that is running very well. What I am prepared to offer the Member is if the Member is interested as a chair of the Social Programs committee, I would be happy to set up a full briefing for the committee and bring in the deputy minister, we could bring in the folks from Stanton. We can work through the issues that have been raised, some of which are very sweeping. There is reference to some very specific labour issues which need more detail on to be able to address through those appropriate processes. Very clearly, we are more than willing to do that. I am not prepared at this point to bring in outside individuals to do something. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you I can pick up the phone anytime and talk to the deputy or CEO or the Minister. That’s not the level of response I am looking for when we are dealing with issues like this in the House. Mr. Speaker, I think he shouldn’t be taking lightly when at least 23 people between Mr. Ramsay and I, and there are other Members…We have had dozens and dozens of employees at Stanton Hospital raising the same issues. I do not jump at one person calling me until I verify the information. I am telling you, the Minister has got to be aware. There is a serious condition happening and I believe it can only be done by an independent look at what is going on. Could I ask the Minister, when is the last time -- and I am really surprised that he doesn’t have an answer in 24 hours because I think if he wanted to, he could have it -- he looked at how many people are leaving the hospital, what was the length of their stay and what are the reasons why they are leaving? When is the last time he looked at that, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have four pages of some of the responses of some of the issues we talked about in terms of the chemotherapy, the staffing concerns, the job evaluation appeals, the strategic plans. I haven’t been sitting idly by and I just didn’t make a general request to the deputy. Yes, the deputy used to be the CEO of Stanton. Yes, he is aware of a lot of the issues. However, the Members talked to me and made a number of sweeping statements about labour relations issues. There is a whole number of appeal processes. If they want me to pursue specific cases, then I can do that, but I would need more detail. If they are just opposed to the process or the classification, then we can have that debate. We monitor on a regular basis and I would be more than happy to give the whole raft of information we have on staffing, vacancies, exit interviews, length of service to look at. There are different vacancy rates depending on the type of profession, but very clearly we have a very full team monitoring all the time the work that’s being done. If the Member is also implying that somehow I shouldn’t be believing what the deputy is telling me or what the CEO is telling me and there are some other real facts out there, then I would have to disagree because I have every confidence, clearly, in the management of the CEO and the deputy and the work they do. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I might remind the government that this is exactly what we were told when we had issues with the correctional centre. I am telling you right now that I am not suggesting that the Minister should not accept what the deputy ministers are saying. What I am saying is I don’t believe they are getting all the information they need to get from the front-line workers. I would like to ask a very specific question because there are a lot more questions here that I am prepared to pursue over the next two and a half weeks. I would like to ask the Minister, not just looking at the vacancy numbers, when is the last time he inquired as to who is leaving the hospital, what was their length of stay and why? Is there any mechanism in place for the Minister, deputy minister or CEO to know who is leaving and why? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 113-15(5): Operational Issues At The Stanton Territorial Hospital

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that information is available and collected through the HR system. We monitor that on a regular basis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to stand on a point of order. I think I clearly heard the Minister of Health and Social Services threaten my wife. She’s an employee at Stanton Territorial Hospital. She wasn’t one of the 17 health care professionals that showed up at my constituency meeting with these concerns nor was she one of the seven that showed up at my colleague Ms. Lee’s constituency meeting, Mr. Speaker. I take great exception to the Minister threatening me and I think I heard him say my brother, who used to work at North Slave Correctional Centre. Mr. Speaker, I will go back and I will say this for the record, if the Minister doesn’t want to take the word of his deputy, that’s his business. What I am saying and I want to point out, for the record, is the former Minister of Justice didn’t want to listen to the rank and file staff at North Slave Correctional Centre. He listened to the senior bureaucrats. What happened there, Mr. Speaker? We went through a long, protracted human resource review of that facility. You know what? They came up with 63 recommendations. How have those recommendations been acted upon?

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay, for your point of order. I am going to allow a little debate on this because I don’t recall exactly the words that…Mr. Ramsay. I will allow some debate on the point of order. To the point of order. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, clearly, it’s a matter of fact that the Member’s brother did work at the North Slave Correctional Institute during that time period that he referenced. Clearly, his wife is an employee at Stanton Hospital currently. However, my intention is not to threaten the Member; it’s to make a point just to reflect those facts. If I have caused him discomfort or caused him any unhappiness, then I would be very happy to withdraw that particular comment as it may be recorded in Hansard. My intention is not to drag his spouse into this, but just to point out that there is a clear connection. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. To the point of order. Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, before the Minister got up and spoke on the point of order, I was thinking to myself I did not hear what was said, but if what the Member from Kam Lake is saying is true, that would cause me a great deal of concern, Mr. Speaker. We are well aware that every Member in this House has spouses, families, children. This is a small community. There are 40,000 people in 33 communities. I bet you there are not many degrees of separation between all of us. Two or three connections will connect us to everybody. It is paramount to our privilege as a Member that we are free of no intimidation or any limitation in discussing issues here. We should not be threatened in any way. If the Minister, if he said anything like what he said like I am understanding, if he made any mention of the fact, I would take great exception to that and I think that should be withdrawn and apologize and the significance of that sort of action should be taken note of.

It’s so important for the work that we do that we are totally free from any sense of limitations that could come from statements like that, Mr. Speaker. I await your ruling on this very important point. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Ramsay, could you clarify under what rule you are raising your point of order?