Debates of October 21, 2004 (day 25)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The report, for example on page 5, has a whole section on community wellness. This is not just a women’s issue, but it is done by the Status of Women Council. It is coming from a woman’s perspective, which I believe also is always a better and enlightened perspective.

---Laughter

Mr. Speaker, if you read through this community wellness section, it really provides the government with concrete steps that the government could take to get the people ready for the megaprojects. It talks about child and homecare services, improve the information services like a helpline or legal line, assisting to manage financial pressures from friends and family. It sounds to me, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister has not reviewed this step by step. I would like to know if the Minister could commit to having his staff look at this report and look at all of the recommendations and report back to this House as to how they can be incorporated into the readiness for the projects. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 278-15(3): Action Plan To Address Social Impacts Of Resource Development

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of the report and have reviewed it myself. Part of the response is to the social framework that this government is working in partnership with other agencies. That issue is discussed regularly at the social Ministers' envelope meetings and it is something that this government is working to bring forward. In terms of what we are doing specifically for oil and gas, it is no different than what we would do in all of our communities. We are working to improve the ability of communities to deal with social problems that are a result of development. We work to support them. I would say that we are aware of the report. The report is not something that is new to this government. Through the work of the social Ministers’ envelope, we are working to try and advance issues of gender concern as much as we can. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 278-15(3): Action Plan To Address Social Impacts Of Resource Development

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do believe we must come up with a more concrete and more focused response and preparedness for what is going to befall upon us socially and with this megaproject. I think we have to do more than just business as usual, Mr. Speaker, because there are some specific issues and specific fallouts that we are going to have from this mega resource development from transient workers. We are already seeing increased use of crack cocaine and more prostitution, promiscuity. This report is talking about things like that. People use easy money frivolously on gambling. We are dealing with really serious social issues that the government has to get ready. I believe that it has to be precise, Mr. Speaker. A socioeconomic impact agreement is totally separate from dealing with social issues. It is about how is the government ready to deal with what is coming before us. Would the Minister commit to doing something more specific to prepare for the resource development? Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 278-15(3): Action Plan To Address Social Impacts Of Resource Development

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that I would agree that this is totally separate. A company that is responsible for making a large amount of money from our resources in the Northwest Territories has a responsibility to help us deal with the social issues that arise from that money coming into the Territories. Therefore, one of the things that we are trying to do is to bring social issues into socioeconomic agreements with the company. We believe that we have to work with companies to support gender issues when we talk to them about the socioeconomic agreements as well. It is something that isn’t just right socially. It makes good business sense in the long run. Maybe we have to help them understand that, so this government is committed to helping communities deal with the social issues, and the social envelope Ministers are talking about these issues and are formulating plans to try and deal with social issues that we face across the Territories right now. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 278-15(3): Action Plan To Address Social Impacts Of Resource Development

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe what is happening with this pipeline is so huge, we are spending a lot of energy and time talking about how we get the most financial benefit, how we get resource revenue sharing. All of that is important. We have many people spending lots of resources working on those to get the best deal possible. I think there should be the same effort, energy, and resources put on by this government. You get the money from the company, but is the government working with the partners that could work out a specific plan to get ready for the pipeline development? Are Ministers talking about it in the social envelope committee? Why can’t he put together step-by-step programs that they are going to do in specific response to what they see as a potential problem? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 278-15(3): Action Plan To Address Social Impacts Of Resource Development

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think what I have been saying is that is a natural course of what we are doing. It is something that this government is doing on a continual basis. We are, as social Ministers, working together to make sure that we are formulating the plans that will best serve our constituents. As we develop them, yes, they will be rolled out. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is to the Premier of Northwest Territories. In researching and looking at some of the past Hansards with regard to resource revenue sharing, in light of the complexity of dealing with revenue resource sharing and the issues that are on the table, can the Premier tell me when can we, as the Northwest Territories, as a northern aboriginal people, get our act together, go down to Ottawa and sit down once and for all and ask them what are the clear rules and guidelines of getting a deal done? We have been dealing with this a long time. The Premier knows it. Let’s get our act together. Let’s go down to Ottawa with everybody who is involved in the resource sharing scheme of things and tell Ottawa, once and for all, we need to do it. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Return To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Mr. Speaker, in my discussions with the aboriginal leaders a few weeks ago, I did propose to them that we need to have representatives from here and aboriginal leaders meet in Ottawa together with some of the key Ministers. I had hoped we would be able to do that by the end of October, but things have slipped. I still hope that we can do it this fall. I am not sure what everybody’s schedules are, but, I agree, we need to be there. We need to be there in enough numbers that the message is clear that we stand together on this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Premier. This issue is burning. It needs to get done. It is like we are negotiating. For example, if we were to negotiate a highway to the Sahtu, why negotiate a highway to Sahtu if we don’t have the money to pay for it? Things like this really bug me as a Member here. To see the amount of wealth that is coming out of this Northwest Territories and is going to Ottawa, we can see the amount of dollars that is coming back to us. Our aboriginal communities are also saying we need these programs and services. Again, Mr. Speaker, I will ask the Premier, does he have a plan to sit down with the aboriginal governments, work out a strategy, and clear the agendas if we have to on behalf of the government and get the other MLAs involved, go down to Ottawa, step it up and say we made a deal? Like you said, Mr. Premier, the diamond mine has been here and a lot of dollars have gone out. Still, we haven’t seen a deal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Mr. Speaker, yes, I have talked to the aboriginal leaders. They were going to look at their own strategy and then sit down with myself and the Minister of Finance, and we would then formulate a more comprehensive strategy for getting down to Ottawa. The involvement of MLAs is something that I had not talked to them about, but I will certainly raise it with them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Premier because this is a very sensitive issue to all of the people involved. It is very complex. Mr. Speaker, I understand that the federal government negotiator doesn’t yet have the mandate in terms of devolution. He only has the mandate for programs and services, and Finance Canada has the mandate to negotiate the net fiscal benefits such as resource revenue sharing. I would really like to see any type of movement that the Premier can give our federal MP some leverage or some coaxing to Finance Canada to sit down with us. I would like to ask the Minister if he would raise that with our Member and really table a response in the future with regard to this discussion with our compadre in Ottawa. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Mr. Speaker, when I go to Ottawa this week, I will definitely raise that with our MP, the Minister of Northern Development. I will also raise it with the Prime Minister and the other federal Ministers that we meet with. Further, I will certainly clarify the unanimous words of support that we heard today from the MLAs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Premier. I understand, reading through the Hansards of previous sittings here, that the federal government really was not too sure of or may have a problem with sitting with the aboriginal organizations or aboriginal governments in terms of negotiating resource revenue sharing or devolution. Has the federal government changed its views on that? I understand they just want to deal with the GNWT. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 279-15(3): Aboriginal Representation In Negotiating Resource Revenue Sharing

Mr. Speaker, generally, and I would have to say at the officials or bureaucrat level, the message that has come from Finance Canada is that Finance Canada negotiates arrangements that work with provincial and territorial governments. It does not enter into agreements with municipal governments or aboriginal governments and so on. To my knowledge, they have not changed their view on that. I have not heard that same sentiment from the political leaders, Mr. Speaker. I have heard it, though, clearly from the officials in the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions this afternoon are for the Premier, the Honourable Joe Handley. They centre on the devolution framework and negotiations that I guess are underway. This is where I am seeking some clarification. March 18th of this year, the Premier, in his capacity of Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, and the Minister of Indian Affairs, and a number of other aboriginal leaders signed the NWT Lands and Resources Devolution Framework Agreement. In that agreement, it sets out a timeline that suggests that an effective target date for this agreement shall be April of 2006. That is only about a-year-and-a-half from now, Mr. Speaker, but today and last week, the Minister told us that they are looking at an interim resource revenue sharing process because -- and I am quoting from Hansard of last Wednesday, Mr. Speaker -- “because I am not 100 percent confident that we are moving fast enough on devolution.” The question that I would like to ask, Mr. Speaker, is which deal are we negotiating, the one that was signed just seven months ago, or now some new process that we still seem to be feeling around for conceptual agreement? Which deal is the one that is on the table? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Return To Question 280-15(3): Status Of Devolution Agreement

Mr. Speaker, we only have a formal negotiating table for the main devolution agreement. The concept, the idea, the proposal of interim resource revenue sharing is not at a table right now. We continue to negotiate devolution. The next meeting is October 26th to 28th, so we are still talking devolution. Mr. Speaker, I have been discouraged by this slow pace since when the Aboriginal Summit wanted to get a new negotiator. We did. We had an election and change of Ministers of DIAND since then, a change of Ministers of Finance. Things have slowed us down to the point where I am not confident that we can have a quick devolution deal because, even in the North, some of the aboriginal organizations have not negotiated their final agreements. The Akaitcho, Deh Cho and NWT Metis are saying we want to negotiate our own deal before we get serious about devolution. There are so many things working against a longer-term devolution deal that my feeling is, at the same time that is happening, we are seeing resources going out of here. We have to get something in the interim, something that comes into effect now, not 18 years from now.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 280-15(3): Status Of Devolution Agreement

Mr. Speaker, I couldn’t agree more that as the wealth of the territory is pumped and flown and driven out of the NWT, then we have to act as soon as we can to get a share of it. This is where Ottawa seems to be so good at the game. They have been very good at this for years. Process, divide and conquer are the tactics that keep us off balance and hurt us when we try to do this. The preamble to this deal of the signing, Mr. Speaker, on March 18th, refers quite clearly to the realization of resource revenue. It is not just a management deal, it is a money deal, too. Is this agreement worth the paper that it is written on, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 280-15(3): Status Of Devolution Agreement

Mr. Speaker, that agreement, in my view, is worth the integrity of everybody who signed it. That is what is going to determine how we treat that agreement. When we signed it, we took it very seriously. I am sure the aboriginal leaders who signed it took it seriously. So that is a serious deal. Mr. Speaker, I will say that we are not going to be rushed into signing or entering into some kind of devolution deal that is not a good deal. I would sooner have no deal than a bad deal. We are going to take our time. We are going to make sure that we have a good devolution deal. In the meantime, if we can get an interim resource revenue sharing, to get the money flowing here, the money staying here, I want to do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 280-15(3): Status Of Devolution Agreement

Mr. Speaker, the answer that the Premier gave is one that I was hoping he would. There are a lot of people standing behind this. The signature of the previous Minister of Northern Affairs is on here too, and yet this seems to be where the bottleneck is. Why is it that, as we all seem to agree, on March 18th, that we can’t say, okay, we agreed to live up to a deadline here of April 2006 to make this deal work? Why is it that we can’t do it? Just do it. All this stuff about interim this, and sort of that, and maybe this, I am just so tired of it, Mr. Speaker. We make an agreement to get somewhere, and yet somewhere along the line it falls apart. Why can’t we stick to the plan and work the plan? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 280-15(3): Status Of Devolution Agreement

Mr. Speaker, as one party to the plan, we have been working hard to stick to the plan and move ahead with it, but I cannot speak for the other two parties on this one, the aboriginal leaders and the federal government. We want to move ahead as quickly as we can on this and will do everything we can. Mr. Speaker, we have to understand that we are not in control of it ourselves. We have two other parties we have to work with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise again today to bring forward some of my concerns to a shepherd of our Assembly. I raised many questions in my Member’s statement today. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier if he knows whether or not the federal government will deduct from our grants the resources and revenues that the territory may collect in the future -- I stress may -- from the pipeline even if we do get a resource revenue agreement and deal. What does he have to demonstrate certainty; not his gut feeling, certainty? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Return To Question 281-15(3): Reduction Of Federal Grants Due To Resource Revenues

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we will not sign a deal that is not a good deal, so I can have that as a piece of certainty. Mr. Speaker, I fully expect that as a territory we are going to someday have much less of a grant from the federal government and be more self-reliant on our own resource revenue. So I expect the federal government will take some money out of our grant, but I think we’ve got a lot of wealth in this territory and we need to keep it here for our people. We can live someday on our own resource revenues and be a have jurisdiction in Canada. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 281-15(3): Reduction Of Federal Grants Due To Resource Revenues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I hope and I pray our Premier is right, that some day…However, the way I read the agreement now or I see us proceeding, I should say, not reading the agreement, is, yes, our resource benefit will increase, but our grant will decrease and still it will be a level playing field, there will be no change. So I can’t see that we are proceeding in a direction right now that is what I want as concrete.

Mr. Speaker, the Pembina Institute released a report that was on the radio in August, saying that the federal government who sets the royalties is giving away the territory's oil and gas resources at a low cost. Between 1995 and 2002, on average, only $2.20 per barrel of oil was collected for production in the NWT. Now compare that to $14 per barrel in Norway, $11.50 in Alaska per barrel. I would like to ask the Premier if he could address this issue or has he addressed this issue on the federal government. Are we giving away our resource revenues for nothing? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 281-15(3): Reduction Of Federal Grants Due To Resource Revenues

Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say that when we balance our grants and our own resource revenues, we expect to have what we have always referred to as a net fiscal benefit. We never want to see a dollar for dollar, otherwise why are we doing this. Mr. Speaker, on the other one, on the report, yes, I believe the federal government is not getting the fiscal resources out of our natural resource development. We are not getting what we should and I saw the same report, I know we are getting much, much less than some of the Scandinavian countries, for example. Mr. Speaker, that’s the federal government. We don’t have any say on that right now, and, of course, that's why devolution is important. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 281-15(3): Reduction Of Federal Grants Due To Resource Revenues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. Mr. Speaker, the way I see it right now is we could be spending money better and how could that be happening? I bet we could get further by spending $1 million on a television commercial that could air all across Canada for people in Canada, and maybe even we could wake up some of those parliamentarians down in Ottawa to see what is really happening up here. I think our resource money is being stolen. There is no Robin Hood stealing from the Northwest Territories and giving it back to the people, Mr. Premier. I think our Prime Minister should be going to jail, the way he is stealing from us.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier tell us today, how much money is…

Mr. Hawkins, the Chair cannot accept that statement from you. Would you retract that statement, Mr. Hawkins?