Debates of October 22, 2004 (day 26)

Agreed.

Total department, not previously authorized, $1.08 million.

Agreed.

Page 17, Department of Health and Social Services, capital investment expenditure, health services program, not previously authorized, $855,000.

Agreed.

Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I get some information on the $355,000 for Inuvik and $350,000 for Yellowknife? Are any of these offices for Inuvik services being housed in the new hospital by any chance, or is it in a completely different building? Is it just for renovation? It just says improvements. Could I get more detail on that? Where is this office space for medical and support staff being renovated in Yellowknife? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the Yellowknife office space for medical staff support, that’s to do with the Frame Lake Medical Clinic expansion to make room for more doctors that have been hired here in the capital. So it’s to make room for them.

The one for Inuvik is not with the existing hospital. Right now, those services are held outside in a different facility and they are doing renovations to fit in the 17 positions that have been there, but they’ve used other office space that they are now trying to upgrade to match the needs of the work being done. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are the 17 new positions for this year? What has caused the need? Why is it coming up as not previously authorized? If they were old positions, why wasn’t office space for them considered in the previous budget? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. They are not new positions. They were providing services for the community of Inuvik, so they moved from the regional hospital. That’s my understanding. They were fit into an office space that was not designed for the program that’s being offered. This has been in the works for awhile but did not make the cut initially as the plans went forward, so they have come forward on this basis.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am ignorant in this new area here. Is this a new approach to the delivery of programs? It must be the integrated service model that Minister Miltenberger has been talking about for the last five years or the last three years. He’s been the Minister for the last three years. Is that a move to bring all these providers under the same umbrella incorporating what they are doing and they have to be in the same building? Is that the need for improvements, or is it that the separate offices where they are housed need separate renovations? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe I will have the Minister of Health and Social Services provide a response to that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the renovation in Inuvik is to make the office space more habitable. If memory serves me correctly, the offices are in the Semmler Building. They are very crowded. They are trying to renovate to better accommodate the staff. I know they’ve had at least two major sewage backups that have caused a lot of damage. So this is to deal with that particular issue in terms of accommodating the staff. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Roland.

I have nothing further to that, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That’s all of my questions.

Thank you. Health services programs, not previously authorized, $855,000.

Agreed.

Total department, not previously authorized, $855,000.

Agreed.

Page 18, Department of Justice, capital investment expenditures, public legal services, special warrant, $115,000.

Agreed.

Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a number of questions in this area. I will try to be as quick as possible here. First of all, I would like to know why this is being approved or the government is bringing this under a special warrant. I can see a tank farm that’s deteriorating that has potential environmental consequences or a school collapsing. I could see those things brought forward for expenditure under a special warrant, but why is a second Legal Aid clinic and renovation of that coming under a special warrant? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the reason that it’s come forward in this manner is that there is a large backlog of work that needs to be done to get this facility up and running. This avenue was chosen to try to meet those needs and the timing of it. It was felt that this needed to be done to meet the needs of the public interest in this area. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With all due respect to all the people who are waiting in line for Legal Aid lawyers, we know this has been an ongoing thing for many years. We know the current practice is anything the Legal Aid clinic cannot handle, they get farmed off to private lawyers. That’s how this gets done. It’s quite troubling that something like this is done by way of a special warrant which really ties the hands of the members here because once this has been allocated, there is nothing we can do about it and $115,000 is gone. I have a problem with that and I believe the use of special warrants should be revisited.

Secondly, Mr. Chairman, I have a question on some of the timing of this. The information the Minister has give us is that the tender for the office space for a second Legal Aid clinic went out on August 9th. It was closed on August 27th. On August 31st, it was determined that there were no successful bidders, but the information we have here is that on August 22nd, five days before the proposal closed, the special warrant was approved by FMB to spend $115,000 for leasehold improvements. That’s just to renovate what turned out to be a shoe store into an office. How was it determined, five days before the deal was determined, how much money had to be spent? As of today, there has been no renovation that has taken place with this money. That space is still a shoe store and there is not one cent of the money spent. Why was it determined that on August 22nd, even before the lease was let, that money had to be allocated for improvements? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The process that’s used and this government has taken a proactive approach, that we have moved as soon as taking office to address the issue of Legal Aid services and a family law clinic, so they can go ahead and hire the lawyers necessary and get that ready. Once we knew the size of the facility, what was going to be required, there is going to be a refit cost that we are aware of. It was brought forward on the basis that this was going to be needed when you look at the type of space that’s required, the changes that would be made, this estimate was brought forward. It’s based on the whole process kicking off October 1st. That’s when we originally anticipated having the clinic open its doors. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my understanding, from the information the Minister has provided to us, is that the Legal Services Board had toured the facility and saw that there might be some concerns about the privacy of the clients. They’ve asked for the window, for example, that is there right now -- because it’s a storefront location -- that those windows be frosted, so that privacy could be guaranteed. I am sure there are extra costs that are going to be incurred as a result of this space being a shoe store at the moment and having to be turned into an office space. The public can see right now that that premise is occupied. Can I ask the Minister whether either DPW or the Legal Services Board people had any idea that this was in use and it was not possible for a Legal Aid office to be opened as of October 1st? In fact, it is October 22nd today and there have been no renovation that have taken place there. What was the government’s knowledge of this?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, when the plan came forward, there was no identified office space. It was a plan that we knew would go into gear. We had approved the money for the O and M side to hire the lawyers, to have the other staff in place, that we would be needing office space. Based on the design of what would be required, there was an estimate made of the needed alterations to any office space out there, and based on that we had approved it because it was needed to get it in place, to have the doors open potentially by October 1st. We know now that that's not what happened, because when the RFP was initially put out there was no suitable space found. So that put a delay in things, and that process of trying to find suitable space went on much longer than was initially anticipated. So when the plan was put together, there was no location, there was a system of space that was needed that we planned on and the estimates were based on.

So, number one, an RFP was issued to get the O and M in place, that's hiring of staff; two, based on that number of staff required, an estimate was made of what space requirements would be needed, and, based on that, an estimate for refitting had come forward; again, all on the plan that the doors would be open by October 1st. As a result and as we know now, that plan didn't come out as we had anticipated. So a decision was made based on a plan of events that we thought would occur. When the original timing of the completion of the RFP had come back and there was no suitable space, that threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing in that we were not able to complete what was planned. So there was a feeling that we had a plan in process, we were moving along with that plan, and, as many members are aware, office space here in Yellowknife is very tight, and the original RFP didn't work out. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. I think it's open to debate whether or not there were any other spaces, but for now, Mr. Chairman, I just want to concentrate on this item in front of us, $115,000 for a lease improvement that was approved on August 22nd. What I'm gathering from what the Minister is saying is that this amount was approved in advance without knowing the details. It's an approximation of what it would cost to do lease improvements to make the space suitable for the office. Would the Minister say that there's a very good possibility that we may need more money to improve, especially given that there were extra things being thrown in here that were not anticipated and we are in a prime retail store? Also, I just want to confirm before today is over, the information I have is that the cost of the lease is $379 per square metre. Is that yearly or is that monthly? Yearly it's working out to about $36,000 a year. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the government operates on estimates. An estimate was made based on the requirements that would be needed for that space. We know what the type of requirements are, so we went ahead on that basis as we do with other things. What we could potentially find here is we could go either way. There might not be the requirement for the full amount, or there might be a requirement for more, but I highly doubt that, as we're aware of the type of space that's required and the estimates put in place with the space requirements. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.

Thank you. There is a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will now rise and report progress. I would like to thank the Honourable Floyd Roland, Minister responsible for FMBS; and also Lew Voytilla.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2004-2005, and would like to report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with.