Debates of October 24, 2006 (day 14)

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I guess, first of all, like everyone else, I should commend the commission for going out and taking the time to visit the communities and hear what the community concerns are. I am not totally convinced that all the factors were looked at when the report was compiled, the final report. However, we’ve had five commissions on electoral boundaries since 1978. The smaller communities, especially the smaller communities such as I have in my riding, have been very clear in terms of what they need to see, the concerns. It’s always seen as a case that the commission doesn’t seem to hear what they are saying. They put in the report that they heard the communities voice their concerns, but it doesn’t seem to be factored into what the final analysis of what should be done. That concerns me.

The smaller communities have been saying consistently that they sometimes feel neglected because of their size, that the larger centres such as Yellowknife has easy access and a lot of the smaller communities are also saying that major changes within this government should not take place until all land claims are settled. That’s something we don’t seem to be factoring into our report. When we look at electoral boundaries and representation, I certainly take the view that is has to be fair and it has to be balanced. I can’t say honestly that I feel I have the same voice as the city of Yellowknife when they have six more Members than I do. I have one crack at what I am going to say, whereas a larger centre such as Yellowknife can say it seven times in a row.

I would never convince anyone in my riding that Yellowknife needs another seat. I would be laughed at. My career would be over in politics, I am sure.

---Laughter

You also have to consider in the smaller ridings where we have a number of communities represented by one MLA, if that Member becomes a Minister, there is no one to cover for him or her. We also have to look at maybe one of the flaws in this commission was that we looked at strictly representation. I am concerned, of course, as I said before, that this report focuses too much on per capita and maybe not as much on what an MLA with more than one community has to go through. Maybe we should have packaged this up with the MLA compensation and benefits where we look at constituency budgets. There is really a difficulty when, I am sure the population factor is something that has to be taken into consideration. Forty-eight percent of the population in one community, of course, we need to recognize that.

We also have to recognize there’s a cost. It’s $450,000 for another seat, times two. That’s a lot of money. A couple of other people have said that surely 19 MLAs can represent 43,000 people. I have to agree with that. It’s really unfair not to take in all the concerns from the communities. If the report is focussed so much, the emphasis is so much on per capita, then why bother with commissions? Why bother having these people go out there? This is the fifth time now to look at what the boundaries should be. The only other time in recent history that we saw a change is when the courts forced us to make a change in the 13th Assembly. So in that sense, it is a waste of money. If we are going to look at strictly numbers, let’s not go back out there and start getting everybody’s hopes up that we are going to listen to everything because we aren’t. We are only listening to numbers, as far as I am concerned.

I keep hearing around the room let’s not feel threatened. I have heard, every time I have stated that I supported one side or the other, people say well, then, somebody in Yellowknife is going to take you to court. If it’s the other way around, they say the Tlicho is going to take you to court. So how could I not feel threatened when the threat is hanging out there that we are going to end up in court?

Hear! Hear!

Our history has shown that court has resolved these issues for us. My position is that we look at redrafting the boundaries rather than adding new Members. I don’t know how stable that is going to be. I am sure it will be a challenge. I would also look at making a recommendation if you have to do this, that we certainly provide some kind of guidance, some kind of criteria for our commission members to look at. If the concern was the number of Members increasing, then we should look at giving them strict direction and criteria. So those are my comments. I would like to see it next time around come to with some clear direction, some direction as to capping the numbers is where we want to stay. We don’t really want to go any more than 19. We should also package the commission’s responsibilities that include looking at boundaries or rejigging the boundaries and also how the constituencies are supported.

I have tried so many different ways to have good representation in my riding. I have tried having a CA here; I have tried having a constituency assistant in one community and it doesn’t work because the other communities feel that they are neglected. Right now, I am trying to have two part-time constituency assistants in two different communities and the other two communities are saying we have to have somebody there too. Our budgets don’t support that. Those things have to be looked at. Maybe its not all about votes in the House, but rather being able to have easy access to the MLAs or at least easy access through some of the staff from the MLAs so that communities are heard. Our responsibilities are different in the communities. My job is completely different from an MLA in a larger centre. We process income tax returns. We deal with old age pensions. We deal with child apprehension. You name it. If somebody is in corrections, they want to contact the MLA for referral letters. I think there is really no boundaries that we can set. I don’t see how we can say that’s outside the territorial government responsibilities. We just have to accept that it’s our job to help them, because there is no other service. If somebody can’t get a lawyer, they come to the MLA. Even if there is a lawyer and they don’t know the lawyer, they come to the MLA. So our responsibilities are very heavy in the small communities where there is not the same level of services and not the same access. So I will be supporting Bill 14 even though I think at some point it’s going to be challenged, but I think that’s our best attempt to try to keep the numbers at 19. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Next I have Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I wasn’t going to really speak on this because I went through this in the 13th Assembly. I will tell you back then is exactly what we see today happening with our rural and remote communities with programs and services, the have and have-not communities. It’s exactly what we were afraid was going to happen when they had the court case.

I don’t think you can say there is a difference between the larger centres and small communities. The little things the large centres take for granted like being able to get access to medical care, policing services, basic infrastructure and whatnot, most communities today cannot even get the basic services in a lot of our communities. We talk about policing a place like Sachs Harbour. We can have increased budgets for highway patrols, we can have police dogs that we budget for, yet we can’t even find the fundamental basic services for people who are at a point where they are leaving our communities because the services they have there are secondary to what is going on in the larger centres.

Families are leaving our communities because of the quality of programs and services being delivered because of the adjustment of what was done in the 13th Assembly. You can talk about representation by population, but you also have to realize when you talk about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that you are talking about a quality of life issue here that no one seems to want to touch but it is the reality of the North. The whole demographics of what happened in the Northwest Territories from the 13th Assembly where a majority of people in this House were from small isolated communities from Nunavut and the Northwest Territories. We were able to help people from Grise Fiord and ensure that they had the equipment to run their municipal services and programs. We were able to deal with the services that were being delivered.

Since this court decision, in which we gave seven seats to the larger centres, we have seen a decline in the services that we can deliver in a lot of our smaller communities because of capacity issues. Everyone is moving to where the opportunities are. The quality of education is better in the larger communities. The services are better in the larger communities. I know my colleague from Inuvik Boot Lake touched on the thing about medical services. In most of our communities, the only service you get is to be medevaced to Yellowknife or Inuvik. That’s about as close to the medical services we are getting. To see a doctor, you might be lucky to get your name on a list to see a doctor once a month.

Hear! Hear!

Yet we are spending major dollars with regard to larger centres by way of institutions to institutionalize the majority of clients who come from the smaller communities; our jail facilities. There is talk about putting more facilities in place. If you want to talk about distribution of wealth, you should also talk about the possibility of distribution of governments. There are 5,000 employees in the government that are in the larger, regional centres which has an effect on the larger population base.

Mr. Lafferty touched on the representation of the number of aboriginal people that he represents that live here in Yellowknife. I have the same dilemma where we have over 200 enrolled members living in Yellowknife from the Gwich’in claim and the Inuvialuit people. They do come to me when they have issues. At the end of the day, it comes down to the cost of doing government. By having a bigger government, does that improve the quality of services and programs to the residents of the Northwest Territories? From what we have seen, no, it doesn’t. What we have are have and have-not communities, since the court decision was made. For me, that’s probably the most visual aspect of what has happened since we divided from Nunavut. The challenge to us is how can we turn this tidal wave around and find a system that works for all the people in the Northwest Territories, ensures that everybody has the same programs and services, ensures the lives of our residents are being upheld, it doesn’t matter where you live.

Hear! Hear!

That was an issue we raised during the last time this court case went forward and it was raised in the context that small communities will become minorities in this Legislature and they will be losing the voice we had prior to division. It has lost the texture of exactly what this territory is supposed to be. The Northwest Territories has been known for its kindness and commitment to all people who come north. Yet the focus of governments and institutions seems to be focussing on the industries and the tourists that come from the South, but not really taking care of the people who really live here. The demographics of how that decision has affected us to govern in the context of representation and has deteriorated in the North from what it was.

I think we also have to realize that as northerners, real northerners, we do care for the little people in the North. If we have to make a choice between a sniffer dog and a highway patrol and putting in a police officer in Sachs Harbour or Tsiigehtchic or the smaller communities, that should be an automatic decision.

You talk about police services, the security and the well-being of our people. The fundamental right of every person should be the quality of life issue. Has it really improved the quality of life of all residents of the Northwest Territories since we had the last court decision? I would have to say no. It might have improved the quality of life for people in the smaller centres. You can definitely see that by looking at the economics.

With that, I will be supporting Bill 14. I think that we do have to go back and revisit the social and economics of what decisions have been made by your courts, the effects it has had on the people of the Northwest Territories, and see what it’s done to improve the quality of life of all residents of the Northwest Territories when we have these court decisions.

Knowing we do have a decline in the population of the Northwest Territories is an aspect that has to be seriously considered before we make a decision unless we have some real numbers that we can make that decision with. We are having an outward migration from the Northwest Territories with all the economic development that is presently being seen by the information that is being provided. More people aren’t coming here; more people are leaving. That alone should tell us that there is a decline in our population.

I do believe that we are beating the courts on their grounds of the 25 percent guidelines, which is 25 percent plus or minus. That was the basis of our last court decision. That is not good enough. I think we should seriously look at how we have representation in Canada and other places in the world. We have representatives in Ottawa in a Senator for Nunavut, a Senator for the Northwest Territories and Yukon, basically 23,000 people out of 30-odd million people in Canada. At this point, we do have to realize that we do have to look at the cost of government and the services of government and that the majority of the capital investment this government makes is to run a government. It’s not to provide programs and services for the people.

With that…

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Order!

Ooh!

Don’t…Anyway, I don’t have anybody else on my list right now for general comments.

Detail.

Okay. I’m sorry. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Member that introduced to the Assembly today or a couple of days ago, it was very interesting to hear what the Members here have to say with regard to the bill itself. Like I said earlier, I would like to thank the Electoral Boundaries Commission for coming out with the report on an important bill like this. I respect the Member for Monfwi with regard to his people wanting another seat in Behchoko and also with the recommendation for one in Yellowknife.

However, having said that, Madam Chair, I would just like to let the Members know that I will support the bill as amended. At this present time, I don’t think it’s necessary to increase the numbers to 21. I think we should leave it at 19. I think we can go down in the next four or five years and we can look at it again. All the comments raised by our Members here, they brought up some of the issues I would have been raising, so I don’t want to mention all the stuff that’s been raised. I respect, like I said, the Member for Monfwi and the Members from Yellowknife with regard to the recommendations out of the report, but I will support this bill, Madam Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill 14 be amended by striking out items 12 to 19 of the appendix and substituting items 12 to 21 as set out in the schedule to this motion.

Madam Chair, I seek unanimous consent to have the schedule to this motion deemed read and printed in Hansard in its entirety. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The Member is seeking unanimous consent to have the schedule to the motion be read and printed in Hansard in its entirety. Are there any nays? There are no nays.

12. Behchoko

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11605 meridian of longitude and the 6253 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6253 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11555 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11555 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6249 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 6249 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11605 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11605 meridian of longitude to the point of commencement.

13. Monfwi

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 65th parallel of latitude and the 120th meridian of longitude; thence south along the 120th meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6215 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6215 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11420 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11420 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 622430 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11431 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11431 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6230 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11426 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11426 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6255 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6255 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11230 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11230 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the Nunavut-Northwest Territories boundary (Lat. 6530 N; Long. 11230 W); thence northwesterly along that boundary to its intersection with the 11600 meridian of longitude at the 6640 parallel of latitude, approximately; thence south along the 11600 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 65th parallel of latitude; thence west along the 65th parallel of latitude to the point of commencement.

Excluding the electoral district of Behchokö.

14. Weledeh

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 6255 parallel of latitude and the 11426 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11426 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6230 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4; thence southerly along the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4 to its intersection with the westerly production of the northern boundary of Lot 40, Block 308, Plan 3953; thence easterly along that production and continuing along the northern boundary of Lot 40, the easterly boundary of Lot 10, Block 307, Plan 3953, and the easterly boundary of Lot 1090, Plan 2732, to the northwestern corner of a utility rightofway, Plan 621; thence southerly along the western boundary of the utility rightofway to its intersection with the centreline of 44th Street; thence southeasterly along the centreline of 44th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 52nd Avenue; thence southerly along the centreline of 52nd Avenue to its intersection with the northwesterly production of the southwestern boundary of Lot 3, Block 167, Plan 3767; thence southeasterly along that production, the southwestern boundary of Lot 3, the western and southern boundary of Lot 1, Block 91, Plan 3506, the southern boundary of Block 91 remainder, Plan 484, and its easterly production to its intersection with the centreline of School Draw Avenue; thence northerly along the centreline of School Draw Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 44th Street; thence westerly along the centreline of 44th Street to its intersection with the southerly production of the western boundary of Lot 1, Block 93, Plan 482; thence northerly along that production, the western boundary of Lots 1 to 6 and southerly along the eastern boundary of Lot 6 to the northeastern corner of Lot 6; thence northeast in a straight line to the northern corner of Lot 1, Block 94, Plan 482; thence easterly in a straight line to the intersection of that line and the western shore of Great Slave Lake at the 622720 parallel of latitude and the 1142118 meridian of longitude, approximately; thence east along the 622720 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11420 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11420 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6215 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6215 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11230 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11230 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6255 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 6255 parallel of latitude to the point of commencement.

15. Frame Lake

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11426 meridian of longitude and the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence south along the 11426 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the centreline of Yellowknife Highway No. 3; thence easterly along the centreline of Yellowknife Highway No. 3 to its intersection with the centreline of Old Airport Road; thence southerly to the northwestern corner of Lot 927, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence southerly along the eastern boundary of Old Airport Road to the southwest corner of Lot 919, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence easterly along the northern boundary of Cemetery Road to its intersection with the western corner of Lot 906, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence southeasterly along the southwestern boundary of Lot 906, Group 964 to the southern corner of Lot 906, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence westerly in a straight line to the southeast corner of Lot 40, Plan 2043; thence westerly along the southern boundary of Lot 40, Plan 2043 to the southeast corner of Lot 4, Plan 515; thence southerly along the eastern boundary of Lots 5, 6 and 7, Plan 515, Lots 8 and 9, Plan 1223, Lots 35 and 36, Plan 1340, Lots 11, 12 and 13, Plan 515, Lots 141 and 142, Plan 1191, Lots 15, 16 and 17, Plan 515 and Lot 42, a limit of Old Airport Road and Lot 1, Block 371, Plan 2249 to the eastern corner of Lot 1, Block 371; thence continuing southeasterly on a production of the eastern limit of Lot 1, Block 371 to its intersection with the shore of Frame Lake; thence southerly, easterly and northerly along the shore of Frame Lake to the northern corner of Lot 2, Block 122, Plan 2015; thence southerly along the eastern boundary of Lot 2, Block 122 to the easterly corner of Lot 2, Block 122; thence southeasterly in a straight line to the intersection of the centreline of 50th Avenue and the centreline of Reservoir Road; thence south along the centreline of Reservoir Road to its intersection with the centreline of Forrest Drive; thence southerly in a straight line to the northwestern corner of Unit 1, Lot 21, Block 133, Plan C2277; thence southerly along the western boundary of Units 1 to 12 and easterly along the south boundary of Lot 21, Block 133, Plan C2277 to the southeastern corner of Lot 21; thence southeasterly in a straight line to the northwestern corner of Lot 24, Block 133, Plan 3850; thence southerly and easterly along the western and southern boundary of Lot 24 and southern boundary of Lots 1, 2 and 26, Block 146, Plan 863 to the southern corner of Lot 26, Block 146, Plan 863; thence easterly in a straight line to the southwestern corner of Lot 27, Block 146, Plan 863; thence easterly along the southern boundary of Lots 27 and 25, Block 146, Plan 863, and the northeasterly production of the southeastern boundary of Lot 25 to the intersection of that production and the centreline of Con Road; thence northwesterly and northerly along the centreline of Con Road to its intersection with the centreline of 55th Street; thence northwesterly along the centreline of 55th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 51st Avenue; thence northeasterly along the centreline of 51st Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 54th Street; thence northwesterly along the centreline of 54th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 50th Avenue; thence northeasterly along the centreline of 50th Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 53rd Street; thence northwesterly along the centreline of 53rd Street to its intersection with the easterly production of the north boundary of Lots 28 and 29, Block 27, Plan 1388; thence westerly along that production, the northern boundary of Lots 28 and 29, Block 27, Plan 1388, and the northern boundary of Lots 24, 25, and 26, Block 27, Plan 217, to the western corner of Lot 26; thence northwesterly along the northeastern boundary of Lot 1, Block 118, Plan 634 and the northeastern limit of a road rightofway, Plan 634 to the northern corner of that rightofway; thence northeasterly to the western corner of Lot 11, Block 49, Plan 1940; thence along the northern boundary of Lots 11 and 12, Block 49, Plan 1940 and the easterly production of Lot 12, Block 49, Plan 1940, to the intersection of that production and the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4; thence northerly along the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4 to its intersection with the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 6230 parallel of latitude to the point of commencement.

16. Range Lake

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11426 meridian of longitude and the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence south along the 11426 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the centreline of Yellowknife Highway No. 3; thence easterly along the centreline of Yellowknife Highway No. 3 to its intersection with the centreline of Old Airport Road; thence southerly to the northwestern corner of Lot 927, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence southerly along the eastern boundary of Old Airport Road to the southwest corner of Lot 919, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence easterly along the northern boundary of Cemetery Road to its intersection with the western corner of Lot 906, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence southeasterly along the southwestern boundary of Lot 906, Group 964 to the southern corner of Lot 906, Group 964, Plan 1005; thence westerly in a straight line to the southeast corner of Lot 40, Plan 2043; thence westerly along the southern boundary of Lot 40, Plan 2043 to the southeast corner of Lot 4, Plan 515; thence southerly along the eastern boundary of Lots 5, 6 and 7, Plan 515, Lots 8 and 9, Plan 1223, Lots 35 and 36, Plan 1340, Lots 11, 12 and 13, Plan 515, Lots 141 and 142, Plan 1191, Lots 15, 16 and 17, Plan 515 and Lot 42 and the northern limit of a short portion of Old Airport Road to the midpoint, said midpoint being the centreline of Old Airport Road; thence southwesterly along the centreline of Old Airport Road to its intersection with the centreline of Range Lake Road; thence southwesterly along the centreline of Range Lake Road to its intersection with the southeasterly production of the northeastern boundary of Lot 6, Block 560, Plan 2108; thence northwesterly along that production and the northeastern boundary of Lot 6 to the northern corner of Lot 6, said point also being on the southern boundary of Lot 971, Plan 1069; thence southwesterly and northwesterly along the southwestern boundary of Lot 971 to the western corner of Lot 971, said point also being the northern point of Lot 6, Block 550, Plan 1971; thence southwesterly and southerly along the northern and western boundary of Lot 6 to the southern corner of Lot 2, Plan 4052; thence westerly and northerly along the boundary of Lot 2 to its intersection with Lot 1048, Plan 2148; thence westerly, northerly, and easterly along the boundary of Lot 1048 to its intersection with Lot 1, Plan 3720; thence northerly, northwesterly, and along a northwesterly production of the western boundary of Lot 1 to its intersection with the centreline of Highway No. 3; thence westerly along the centerline of Highway No. 3 to its intersection with the 11431 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11431 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6230 parallel of latitude to the point of commencement.

17. Trappers Lake

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11431 meridian of longitude and the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence northeasterly in a straight line to the northern corner of Lot 48, Block 553, Plan 3870, said point also being on the southwestern boundary of Lot 6, Block 550, Plan 1971; thence southeasterly along the southwestern boundary of Lot 6, and the southwestern boundary of Lot 31, Block 546, Plan 1799 and northeasterly along the southeastern boundary of Lot 31 to the eastern corner of Lot 31; thence northeasterly to its intersection of the centrelines of each of Balsillie Court and Bagon Drive; thence northerly along the centreline of Bagon Drive to its intersection with the centreline of Hordal Road; thence northeasterly along the centreline of Hordal Road to its intersection with the centreline of Range Lake Road; thence northerly along the centreline of Range Lake Road to its intersection with the southeasterly production of the northeastern boundary of Lot 6, Block 560, Plan 2108; thence northwesterly along that production and the northeastern boundary of Lot 6 to the northern corner of Lot 6, said point also being on the southern boundary of Lot 971, Plan 1069; thence southwesterly and northwesterly along the southwestern boundary of Lot 971 to the western corner of Lot 971, said point also being the northern point of Lot 6, Block 550, Plan 1971; thence southwesterly and southerly along the northern and western boundary of Lot 6 to the southern corner of Lot 2, Plan 4052; thence westerly and northerly along the east boundary of Lot 2 to its intersection with Lot 1048, Plan 2148; thence westerly, northerly and easterly along the boundary of Lot 1048 to its intersection with Lot 1, Plan 3720; thence northerly, northwesterly, and along a northwesterly production of the western boundary of Lot 1 to its intersection with the centreline of Yellowknife Highway No. 3; thence westerly along the centerline of Yellowknife Highway No. 3 to its intersection with the 11431 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11431 meridian of longitude to the point of commencement.

18. Kam Lake

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11431 meridian of longitude with the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence northeasterly along a straight line to the northern corner of Lot 48, Block 553, Plan 3870, said point also being on the southwestern boundary of Lot 6, Block 550, Plan 1971; thence southeasterly along the southwestern boundary of Lot 6, and the southwestern boundary of Lot 31, Block 546, Plan 1799 and northeasterly along the southeastern boundary of Lot 31 to the eastern corner of Lot 31; thence northeasterly to the intersection of the centrelines of each of Balsillie Court and Bagon Drive; thence northerly along the centreline of Bagon Drive to its intersection with the centreline of Hordal Road; thence northeasterly along the centreline of Hordal Road to its intersection with the centreline of Range Lake Road; thence northerly along the centreline of Range Lake Road to its intersection with the centreline of Woolgar Avenue; thence southeasterly along the centreline of Woolgar Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of Kam Lake Road; thence southwesterly along the centreline of Kam Lake Road to its intersection with the westerly production of the southern boundary of Lot 2, Block 500, Plan 2144; thence easterly along that production, the southern boundary of Lot 2, the northern boundary of Lot 922, Plan 727, and the southern boundary of Lot 1002, Plan 1296, to a deflection point on the south boundary of Lot 1002; thence southeasterly in a straight line to the intersection of the 1142330 meridian of longitude and the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence westerly in a straight line to the point of commencement.

19. Pud Lake

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11420 meridian of longitude and the 622638 parallel of latitude; thence westerly in a straight line to the intersection of the centreline of Con Road and the northeasterly production of the southeastern boundary of Lot 25, Block 146, Plan 863; thence westerly along that production, the southern boundary of Lots 25 and 27, Block 146, Plan 863, to the southwestern corner of Lot 27; thence westerly in a straight line to the southern corner of Lot 26, Block 146, Plan 863; thence westerly and northerly along the southern boundary of Lots 26, 2 and 1, and the western boundary of Lot 24, Block 133, Plan 3850 to the northwestern corner of Lot 24; thence northwesterly in a straight line to the southeastern corner of Lot 21, Block 133, Plan C2277; thence westerly along the southern boundary of Lot 21 and northerly along the western boundary of Units 12 to 1, Lot 21, Block 133, Plan C2277 to the northwestern corner of Unit 1, Lot 21; thence northerly in a straight line to the intersection of the centreline of Forrest Drive and the centreline of Reservoir Road; thence north along the centreline of Reservoir Road to its intersection with 50th Avenue; thence northwesterly in a straight line to the easterly corner of Lot 2, Block 122, Plan 2015; thence northerly along the eastern boundary of Lot 2 to the northern corner of Lot 2; thence southerly, westerly, and northerly along the shore of Frame Lake to its intersection with a southeasterly production of the eastern limit of Lot 1, Block 371, Plan 2249; thence northwesterly along that production, the north boundary of Lot 1 to the midpoint of the northern limit of a short portion of Old Airport Road, said midpoint being the centreline of Old Airport Road; thence southwesterly along the centreline of Old Airport Road to its intersection with the centreline of Range Lake Road; thence southwesterly along the centreline of Range Lake Road to its intersection with the centreline of Woolgar Avenue; thence southeasterly along the centreline of Woolgar Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of Kam Lake Road; thence southwesterly along the centreline of Kam Lake Road to its intersection with the westerly production of the southern boundary of Lot 2, Block 500, Plan 2144; thence easterly along that production, the southern boundary of Lot 2, the northern boundary of Lot 922, Plan 727, and the southern boundary of Lot 1002, Plan 1296, to a deflection point on the south boundary of Lot 1002; thence southeasterly in a straight line to the intersection of the 1142330 meridian of longitude and the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 622430 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11420 meridian of longitude; thence north in a straight line to the point of commencement.

20. Great Slave

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11420 meridian of longitude and the 622638 parallel of latitude; thence westerly in a straight line to the intersection of the centreline of Con Road with a straight line between the most eastern corner of Lot 25, Block 146, Plan 863 and the most southern corner of Lot 1, Block 149, Plan 863; thence northerly and northeasterly along the centreline of Con Road and 53rd Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 54th Street; thence northerly along the centreline of 54th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 52nd Avenue; thence northeasterly along the centreline of 52nd Avenue to its intersection with the northwesterly production of the southwestern boundary of Lot 3, Block 167, Plan 3767; thence southeasterly along that production, the southwestern boundary of Lot 3, the western and southern boundary of Lot 1, Block 91, Plan 3506, the southern boundary of Block 91 remainder, Plan 484, and its easterly production to the intersection of that production and the centreline of School Draw Avenue; thence northerly along the centreline of School Draw Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 44th Street; thence westerly along the centreline of 44th Street to its intersection with the southerly production of the western boundary of Lot 1, Block 93, Plan 482; thence northerly along that production, the western boundary of Lots 1 to 6 and southerly along the eastern boundary of Lot 6 to the northeastern corner of Lot 6; thence northeast in a straight line to the northern corner of Lot 1, Block 94, Plan 482; thence easterly in a straight line to the western shore of Great Slave Lake at the 622720 parallel of latitude and the 1142118 meridian of longitude, approximately; thence east along the 622720 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11420 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11420 meridian of longitude to the point of commencement.

21. Niven Lake

All plans referred to in this description are deposited in the Land Titles Office for the Northwest Territories Land Registration District in Yellowknife.

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the westerly production of the northern boundary of Lot 40, Block 308, Plan 3953 and the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4; thence easterly along that production and continuing along the northern boundary of Lot 40, the easterly boundary of Lot 10, Block 307, Plan 3953, and the easterly boundary of Lot 1090, Plan 2732, to the northwestern corner of a utility rightofway, Plan 621; thence southerly along the western boundary of that rightofway to its intersection with the centreline of 44th Street; thence southeasterly along the centreline of 44th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 52nd Avenue; thence southerly along the centreline of 52nd Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 54th Street; thence southeasterly along the centreline of 54th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 53rd Avenue; thence southwesterly along the centreline of 53rd Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 55th Street; thence northwesterly along the centreline of 55th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 51st Avenue; thence northeasterly along the centreline of 51st Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 54th Street; thence northwesterly along the centreline of 54th Street to its intersection with the centreline of 50th Avenue; thence northeasterly along the centreline of 50th Avenue to its intersection with the centreline of 53rd Street; thence northwesterly along the centreline of 53rd Street to its intersection with the easterly production of the northern boundary of Lots 28 and 29, Block 27, Plan 1388; thence westerly along that production, the northern boundary of Lots 28 and 29, Block 27, Plan 1388, the northern boundary of Lots 24, 25 and 26, Block 27, Plan 217, to the western corner of Lot 26; thence northwesterly along the northeastern boundary of Lot 1, Block 118, Plan 634 and the northeastern limit of a road rightofway, Plan 634, to the northern corner of that rightofway; thence northeasterly to the western corner of Lot 11, Block 49, Plan 1940; thence along the northern boundary of Lots 11 and 12, Block 49, Plan 1940 and the easterly production of Lot 12, Block 49, Plan 1940, to the intersection of that production and the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4; thence northerly along the centreline of Ingraham Trail Highway No. 4 to the point of commencement.

Mr. Hawkins.

Firstly, Madam Chair, let me thank my colleagues for not naying that one. That would have meant I would have had to read 10 pages in of fine print.

Madam Chair, in plain language, this motion that I've put on the floor is suggesting to go back to the recommendation made by the commission, which is suggesting 21 seats in total. Again, Madam Chair, is says one additional seat to Yellowknife and one additional seat to the Monfwi region. That's what this motion means, like I say, in plain language. I'll be supporting this motion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the motion. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Of course, I too will be voting in favour of this amendment. Madam Chair, I will not repeat my comments earlier, but to reiterate what I believe was a good recommendation made to this Assembly by the boundaries commission. It reflects that there are changes going on within our society and our communities and our demographics, and that it is incumbent on us to recognize those and strive to do the best we can to ensure that the idea of proportional representation is done to the best of our ability with the obvious considerations that we have, which we already gave to the commission, of language, of geography, of culture, of distance. These are valid things.

Madam Chair, a resident of Yellowknife recently wrote to Members of the Assembly and has given us a very strong endorsement of the principle of proportional representation. I'm going to quote very briefly from his letter, Madam Chair. He says that, "opponents of a more populously proportional distribution assert that seven Assembly Members are adequate to serve the needs of the Yellowknife's constituents. This is not the issue. The issue is that when the most basic expression of the democratic will is called, and that is a vote by a Member in the Assembly, that people are foremost represented according to a distribution of votes justly reflecting their proportion of numbers in the total population." That is the issue that we're here to defend and that is why I'm going to support the amendment, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be very brief, but I'm thinking that I was not very clear on one aspect, which was that the feedback that I'm getting from my constituents are that there is no need for new Members and I understand that position. It's just that if there is any addition in another area, that the voting parity for the Yellowknife residents have to be increased comparably. So for that reason, I am supporting this motion, as I've said already.

Also, I really believe strongly that this is not an argument about whether or not 19 people represent 42,000 people well, or whether Yellowknife needs seven Members or anything like that. It's not about us here. It's about the voting residents and their relative voting parity, so I just want to clarify that. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to state that we are leaders and I will not support this motion. We have 19 people. We spoke. For the people I represent, my people in the Sahtu, each time we get on the plane to fly to our small communities we put our life on the line, for our family, for our children and for our people. That's the issue here; providing services and programs for our people. So, Madam Chair, I will not support this motion. The Sahtu region does not see the need for increasing politicians in the Northwest Territories. They want to see an increase in programs and services in the communities. I would ask that you do a recorded vote on this. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion.

Agreed.

Mr. Handley, Mr. Dent, Mr. Bell, Mr. Ramsay, Mr. Lafferty, Ms. Lee, Mr. Braden, Mr. Hawkins.

All those opposed to the motion.

Mr. Menicoche; Mr. Krutko; Mr. Roland; Mr. McLeod, Deh Cho; Mr. Pokiak; Mr. Villeneuve; Mr. Miltenberger; Mr Yakeleya; Mr. McLeod, Inuvik Twin Lakes.

Thank you, Mr. Mercer. Anyone abstaining, please stand. Colleagues, the motion is defeated.

---Defeated

Madam Chair, I move that this House sit beyond the daily hour of adjournment for the purpose of continuing consideration of Bill 14. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The motion is in order. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed. The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I move that Bill 14 be amended by striking out item 12 of the appendix and substituting items 11.1 and 12 as set out in the schedule to this motion.

Madam Chair, I seek unanimous consent to have the schedule to this motion deemed read and printed in Hansard in its entirety. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The Member is seeking unanimous consent to have the schedule to his motion deemed read and printed in Hansard in its entirety. Are there any nays? There are no nays so that is accomplished and we will distribute the motion here for the benefit of Members.

Schedule

11.1 Behchoko

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11605 meridian of longitude and the 6253 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6253 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11555 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11555 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6249 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 6249 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11605 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11605 meridian of longitude to the point of commencement.

12. Monfwi

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 65th parallel of latitude and the 120th meridian of longitude; thence south along the 120th meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6215 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6215 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11420 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11420 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 622430 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11431 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11431 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6230 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11426 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11426 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6255 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6255 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11230 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11230 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the Nunavut-Northwest Territories boundary (Lat. 6530 N; Long. 11230 W); thence northwesterly along that boundary to its intersection with the 11600 meridian of longitude at the 6640 parallel of latitude, approximately; thence south along the 11600 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 65th parallel of latitude; thence west along the 65th parallel of latitude to the point of commencement.

Excluding the electoral district of Behchokö.

The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair…(English not provided)

Madam Chair, I'd just to rephrase what I've said in my language about the importance of having an additional seat for Tlicho, as I presented here in motion format.

Madam Chair, with respect to what Members are saying around the table here and the vote that came into play, I understand the status quo position, especially from the outlying communities and the stress for the funding going to the communities. But at the same time, we, as the Tlicho Government and I representing Monfwi, try to work around the status quo of 19 Members. We met with the Akaitcho leadership back in September. We made some progress in that area, and the next level was another meeting with Akaitcho and the Tlicho, the chiefs and the grand chiefs, and we did meet in that area just a couple weeks back, discussing further how we can approach this issue. We presented to the Akaitcho leadership and the Yellowknife chiefs, both chiefs, were fully supportive of our initiative, and the same with Fort Res. Fort Res was somewhat being supportive, but he had to consult with his constituents and another chief from Lutselk'e.

So at that time, we left the table feeling that there was confidence in the room. But at the same time, Madam Chair, when we came back there was some discussion that took place and this issue was before us. It was a pressing issue and I had to get some confirmation from the chiefs in Yellowknife, but, unfortunately, there wasn't any agreement between the Akaitcho leadership.

So that left us with an option of going on our own to present this motion for a Tlicho seat. I stress in my language the importance of having a seat for the Tlicho riding, because I speak for the elders, I speak for members, the youth; it's not my words. Those words are the guidance and direction I'm given from my constituents. The leadership are currently in a Tlicho Government assembly in Behchoko and they'll be hearing stories tomorrow how this turns out with the motion.

But like I said, the status quo, like I've told some Members, we really need to focus in the smaller communities that we're representing. I've already stated my opinion in an earlier statement. I've touched on various issues. So I'd just like to leave it at that, just finalizing that this important motion is before the Members and I hope the Members will consider it. I'll leave it at that. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Next I have Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This whole process has been very interesting. I'm sure that anyone who is watching us perhaps via some of the communication, or will take the time to look at Hansard and the record of the debate this afternoon, will tell that there has been a lot of strategy and a lot of different options looked at to arrive at where we are going today. Part of that for me, Madam Chair, was working with Mr. Lafferty to see where potentially our two communities could work together or support each other in achieving the recommendation from the boundaries commission. As Mr. Lafferty indicated to the Assembly or to committee earlier, there was, indeed, support from his leaders to do that, and I know that from my communities this is reciprocated. However, the amendment that was just defeated here shows that there was not enough support across the Legislative Assembly for that, and I respect the decision of my colleagues and their communities in taking that position.

Madam Chair, I further respect Mr. Lafferty's move now to go forward and attain the single new seat for his riding that his people have asked him to work for. But it is with deep regret that I would say that I have to vote against that amendment, and the regret truly is that we cannot see our mutual concerns, mutual interests, satisfied here. In sort of straightforward terms, Madam Chair, the signals that I've got from my colleagues here in the Legislative Assembly this afternoon mean that even if Mr. Lafferty's amendment passes, I am prepared to make another amendment to seek a new seat for Yellowknife and I really don't think that will pass. So what I'm doing, Madam Chair, is reverting to the status quo, to the bill as presented, and that will be my position. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to say to the Member for Monfwi, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the job that he's done in the last while, trying to get an additional seat for his riding in Behchoko, and I have a great deal of respect, as well, for the leadership in the Monfwi riding and the Tlicho people. However, Madam Chair, I regret that I will not be able to support this amendment because I, too, have a constituency to represent in the city of Yellowknife and without another seat for Yellowknife, I cannot support any additional seats outside of Yellowknife, Madam Chair. That will be my stance on this.

I don't know if I have too much more to add. I think the discussion we're having here today is a good one. It seems a little bit backward to me, though, Madam Chair, in that I believe we probably could have saved ourselves some time and energy if we had just went to the bill as presented to us here today. But again, we're dealing with the amendment and, sorry, Mr. Lafferty, I can't support the amendment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for the record, I just want to state my position on this motion. I would also like to thank the Member for Monfwi, and I'd also like to thank the Member for Great Slave. I know they have been working very closely to get a consensus in this regard. I mean we all worked on it, but I'd like to especially mention them.

I think we're having very good discussions here and I have to tell you that given the will of the House that just has been shown where the motion to accept the commission's recommendation has been defeated, I think that the picture is quite clear, that the will of the House is that we will stay status quo, which is what is reflected in Bill 14. So having seen that outcome, I think now my position has to be that I will stay with the status quo and agree with Bill 14.

I'd like to state, once again, that my instruction and guiding principle here on this bill is instruction I've received from my constituents and the general will of Yellowknifers. I think most Yellowknifers agree that they do not want to see government grow or that Yellowknife needs another seat. However, if there is any increase outside of Yellowknife, there has to be a comparable increase to secure voting parity.

This motion I cannot support and I regret that I cannot support that. I would support it if the motion included an amendment to change the seating for Yellowknife and make voting parity possible for a Yellowknife riding, but that's not the case. So as it is written, I cannot support it and I would like to personally send my appreciation to Grand Chief George Mackenzie, Chiefs Lafferty, Nitsiza, Football and Gon, for having really done their job of letting the commission know that. Tlicho are known for their advocacy and I think it's a good thing. It makes their positions known on every issue wherever they go. They've done the same here and I regret that we were not able to entertain that, but I'm going to go with the will of the House and I will be voting down any motion that's not in support of this. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Next on the list I've got Mr. Dent to the amendment. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It has been an interesting discussion this afternoon and I know that there's been a lot of weight on the cost of more Members in this House. I know my constituents have told me that they agree that they're not anxious to see the cost of representation go up. I know somebody today said more Members won't bring in more money. I think that was probably the Minister of Finance…

---Laughter

…but he's absolutely right; they won't. But what we're talking about here is not just about representation. My colleague Mr. McLeod made some very strong arguments about how people in the smaller communities, representatives from the smaller communities have a much tougher time talking to their constituents and representing them. They have a different function in many ways than MLAs from Yellowknife do. I appreciate that; I respect that; and I agree with him that if that isn't being addressed through the MLA Compensation Commission, we need to find some way to address that, whether it's improved travel expenses, or improved constituency assistant expenses for other Members. I'm sympathetic, because I agree that we all need to be able to have reasonable access to our constituents. We need to be able to do our jobs.

But what we're talking about here today is not about representation. I know that's tough to think about, but the Constitution of Canada doesn't say that we're supposed to have representation based on how easily we can get hold of our constituents, or how easily they can get hold of us, or on how we do our jobs. It's not about people's voices being heard even, or access. What it really is, is the Supreme Court has said that the first issue around representation is around relative parity of voting power. That means that my vote in this House is supposed to be relatively equal to that of every other Member, and if it's not the courts have said that there's a problem.

Now, this House has made very clear today that there is no interest in increasing the numbers in our next Legislative Assembly as we go forward. I think that we probably should have accepted the recommendations of the commission, but given that that has been rejected, I know that it would be very, very risky for us to agree to increase in a constituency outside of Yellowknife and not increase within Yellowknife, because then you would be really affecting the relative parity of the votes. Therefore, even though I, too, have travelled in the Tlicho region and I have been lobbied by people in the communities of Whati and Gameti to support an extra seat for the Monfwi region, because of the importance of the relative parity, I have to apologize to the Member for Monfwi, but I, too, will have to vote against this amendment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list I've got Mr. Hawkins. To the amendment, Mr. Hawkins.