Debates of October 26, 2004 (day 28)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, yesterday I think I told this committee that, for the foreseeable future, the passenger terminal building would stay where it is, that’s why the money is being spent. We have to confirm to CATSA that their investment is good for at least 10 years. We believe that it’s good for more than that, at least 10 to 15. But it’s pretty hard to get accurate traffic volume forecasts that go that far out. Based on best knowledge, the best estimate that we have right now, the Department of Transportation believes that that facility will still be in use in 10 to 15 years. It may be still in use in 25 years. If volumes don’t go up, it could be in use even longer. But based on current growth patterns and what the expectation is for the economy, this is a long-term solution and one that you know the government is looking at. Even if it were a 10-year investment, it’s only $666,000 a year. So it is not something that we are spending $50 million on.

It is also not the construction management process, which is the one that I think the Member was actually referring to rather than design/build. The government has a fairly good track record with design/build. It doesn’t with construction management. That’s my opinion. I guess I should be careful about saying that. The design/build process has done fairly well for the government, so I don’t think we should be afraid to take a look at that process.

To the best of our knowledge, the building is going to be there for a while and the process that we are looking at for construction has been utilized successfully in the past by this government.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I guess the Minister and his definition of foreseeable future and my definition of foreseeable future are two different things. I can’t see us spending that type of money on a terminal building that is only going to be in its current location for 10 to 12 years. To me, that is not the foreseeable future, Mr. Chair.

I have a question. I am not sure if Minister Dent can answer this question, or perhaps Minister McLeod might be better equipped to answer this question, but this master plan for the Yellowknife terminal building or the airport property, the government has spent a tremendous amount of money on getting this master plan developed. They are setting forth on implementing some of the things that are included in that master plan, Mr. Chair. What happens to this master plan now that the government is going to invest this money into the current terminal building? Does it go on a shelf, or five or six years down the road are we going to have the Department of Transportation come back and say we need this new terminal building? The current location isn’t big enough. It doesn’t address the needs of the airport and we are going to have to look at moving that terminal building again, sooner rather than later. I would like to know what is going to happen to that master plan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think this question can more appropriately be answered by the Minister of Transportation.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the airport plan is in its final phase of coming towards completion. Be expected to have a completed document for review right shortly. We are planning to still do a number of things: to consult with the city, for example, and also other carriers and stakeholders of intentions. We still will be moving forward. It was our intention to look at relocating the facility to the west side of the airport. That initiative would cost $50 million. It was part of our long-term plan. It is not something that we can realistically expect to do in this case. We looked at it as an option, of course, but it is not realistic. However, we still would like to follow the details of that plan once it is approved and accepted. This airport, this facility, as the Minister has stated, has a 10 to 15-year life forecast. Our traffic is growing at three percent a year. However, that changes and this facility may have a longer lifespan. As to the question that was raised by the Member; yes, we expect to follow the airport plan for the long term in terms of development.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Dent, would you like to add anything?

No, I don’t have anything to add, Mr. Chair. The Minister has outlined the situation. On this issue, I don’t think we can take too lightly the issue of terrorism. That is what this is all in response to. We have been ordered to take certain actions at this airport in order to protect the Canadian air transport system from terrorist attacks. The responsible course of action is to follow through and do what is required. The experts have looked at our airport and said this is what you require, have them placed there in order to tie into the national airport system. It is unfortunate that we have had to come forward because of the timing with a special warrant. I think if the negotiations had been concluded more quickly, it would have been better if we had been able to get the money in for a supp in the June session. Unfortunately, because of the timing, that wasn’t possible. The government would always prefer that we could do things by supp rather than by special warrant simply to avoid the issue that we seem to always wind up with in the House here. But, this is a Canadian security issue. It is one that we have to take seriously: the threats. We have to make sure that we are moving to do what is the responsible thing in keeping the air transport system safe. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I am really glad that Minister Dent just gave that little litany that he did about how we have to be concerned about terrorism and how we have to do what the federal government tells us to do with respect to protecting our airports and traveling public against terrorist threats. Mr. Chair, I would like to know that the Minister conveyed this to the federal government. I think this entire suggestion of X-ray equipment for explosives at the Yellowknife Airport is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard of in my life. Maybe in southern Canada, other small airports feeding to a main airport, where you have the sophisticated and very expensive equipment, but it is a very different situation when you are going north and south. This is like the gun registry. This is a boondoggle. This is a federal government imposed farce because there is a 737 jet that takes off from Inuvik with no security. There is a 737 jet takes off from Hay River en route to Edmonton International Airport with no security. So to put an X-ray machine to see if there are explosives getting on an aircraft in Yellowknife would hardly address the threat of terrorism in the Northwest Territories or any imposition of a threat on the traveling public in the Northwest Territories.

Why doesn’t somebody just call this for what it is? This is ridiculous. It is the federal government imposing on our government a multi-million dollar expenditure for something we don’t need and it is not going to help. In fact, if somebody actually wanted to do something, they wouldn’t get on the plane in Yellowknife. They would get on a plane someplace else with a direct connection to an international airport in the South. Why doesn’t somebody call this for what it is? This is ridiculous. I hope somebody conveyed that to the federal government. If not, it is now on the record. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. If I could just say the language that was used earlier, on parliamentary stuff, can Members be careful? Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You may have to ask the Minister of Transportation to confirm this, but my understanding is that after January 1, 2006, a 737 will not be allowed to take off from an airport where this kind of security system is in place and land at another one like Edmonton. So as of that date, this will be a system that is enforced all across Canada. It will not be possible to fly that size of airplane to an airport like Edmonton from anywhere except an airport that has this kind of screening process in place. Perhaps, Mr. Chair, we can confirm that with the Minister of Transportation.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Chair, as of the January deadline that was imposed on us, there will be five levels of explosive detective systems in place at 87 different airports across Canada. Yellowknife has been rated at the highest level. Because of its high volume of passengers and check baggage traffic, our traffic volumes are a lot higher than Whitehorse, as well as Iqaluit. Consequently, we are rated at the highest level for EDS/HBS deployment. The equipment is going to be operated and supplied by CATSA. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe the equipment is going to be supplied and operated by CATSA, but the consequential effect of this being located in the Yellowknife Airport has some very serious dollar ramifications for this government in terms of capital that we have to build around it. Maybe the federal government should just pick up the tab for those consequential costs. Thank you.

Hear! Hear!

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ll refer that question to the Minister of Transportation.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with the Member’s comments. That was our intention. We did in fact negotiate, as I indicated yesterday, very aggressively to have the federal government pick up the costs. We had initially brought forward the scoping and project costs and insisted that the government look at covering all the expenditures required. However, we were unsuccessful. There was displacement of aircraft parking on the air side, there was space used up in the terminal building that the federal government would not cover. Having looked at this, we had the option of going and taking only the funding provided by CATSA as an option, which would have left us in a situation where there would have been congestion in the airport as traffic volumes grew, and also on the air side where the airplanes were landing and parking that would have caused a lot of problems. We figured this would not be an option, so we went to our second option where we looked at and agreed to bring it forward; that we would increase some of the size and relocate some of the space inside the facility, along with the parking on the air side and the parking lot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I just feel this is another case where our government needs to play a little bit of hardball with the federal government. I don’t know what the outcome would be if we didn’t step up with all this cash in an effort to accommodate this security program.

I just want it on the record that I think it’s a shame that our territory, strapped for money as we are, our resources being dragged out of here by the day, that we can’t even afford community halls in some of our communities, we need so much public infrastructure here and we’re going to dance to the federal government’s new security program.

I just want to say one more thing. Sure, after 2006 we won’t be able to fly out of any airport directly into Edmonton, as the Minister has said, but the fact is, are we going to have X-ray equipment in Inuvik and Norman Wells? Oh, no, just here. So, therefore, a 737 has the capacity and will be well capable of flying from Inuvik to Edmonton.

Here’s the scene, let’s let everybody know: get on the plane in Inuvik or Norman Wells, take your luggage and when you get to Yellowknife they’ll say now please remove all your personal belongings and we’re going to take off all your luggage and we’re going to X-ray it. I think if somebody actually had a master plan in mind, they might implement it before getting to the Yellowknife Airport where they knew their luggage was going to be X-rayed. Anyway, thank you, Mr. Chairman. That’s all I have to say.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I can’t explain why the security requirements have been set up as they have. I have to accept that people who have looked at the situation have decided that in order to make sure our system of air transport is safe, that they have designed things to work around it. I can only say that we, as a government, feel it’s necessary to follow through with these expenditures because we think it’s essential that we live up to our responsibility to keep the system safe and still ensure that people can fly from the Northwest Territories to airports that are in the national airport system.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Chairman, just to follow up on Mrs. Groenewegen’s comment, it just doesn’t make sense that the only airport in the Northwest Territories that’s going to have this type of equipment is Yellowknife, and 737s land in Inuvik, Norman Wells and other communities in the Northwest Territories that don’t have this system. I want to know if the Minister would have any indications of future plans such as Inuvik and Norman Wells and maybe Fort Smith or Hay River…Has the federal government given any indication as to upgrading those airports also where 737s do land and take off? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Not that I’m aware of, but perhaps we could ask the Minister of Transportation if he could respond to the question.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as far as we know, Yellowknife is the only place that is being required to install these facilities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to the user fee, it’s quite a large amount of money that’s going to be spent for the user fee. I guess I want to see what type of recovery process or how long it’s going to take, 10, 15, 20 years, to recover that money. I just want to ask Mr. Dent if he can shed some light on that.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The direction to the Minister so far was to come back with a plan that would recover the money over 10 years.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The activity in the Northwest Territories should – I’ll cross my fingers here -- the pipeline go through, is going to be quite busy with regard to the different regions of the Northwest Territories. Isn’t the federal government a little bit concerned about that level of activity happening in light of what’s happening around the world in terms of protection of our airports and our people? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. At this point, I don’t know anything about that, so perhaps we could ask the Minister of Transportation if he could respond.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.

Madam Chair, that’s a question that the conditions and process for that are a little different. Through the requirements for increased traffic volume in a lot of different airports, we’ve already done a number of projects through this program called the Airport Capital Assistance Program. We’ve dealt with a number of the issues relating to increased traffic volumes. We’ve invested some money in the Inuvik Airport and also done some work targeting Norman Wells. We’ve also accessed several projects at the Yellowknife Airport over the years. However, in this case we haven’t been able to apply this project along with the CATSA funding for the increased space requirements.

In terms of responding to the question about the pipeline and the expected traffic increases, we are evaluating all the airports across the North and we have already embarked on doing some expansion work and renovation work in a number of different areas in airports across the Territories.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. With respect to the supplementary appropriation for $3.4 million, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you. Just one final comment here, Madam Chair. I'm still trying to make sense of the restrictions on 737 aircraft by January 2006 with regard to the Yellowknife Airport, yet these types of aircraft leave other airports in the Northwest Territories, so this doesn’t make sense right now. I wonder if the Minister would have some meetings with the federal Minister in terms of any future discussions or any future direction with regard to our airports that we would have some input, rather that showing up in our books here. It just doesn’t make sense to me, so that’s all I have to say, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Madam Chair, perhaps we could refer this to the Minister of Transportation, please.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.

Madam Chair, I don’t know if I’m in a position to qualify whether the federal requirements make sense or not. At this point I’m obligated to follow through and implement this whole explosion detection system by the deadline. We have raised this issue regarding our additional funding requirements to the federal government. We have talked to the CATSA officials over a number of months from the time this funding application was submitted in December right until this spring when it was final, and all indicators showed that the government was not going to budge on allowing us any more money to deal with some of our requirements. We have met with the federal Minister, we indicated this is one of the issues we wanted to talk about, we’ve also indicated to our MP that this is an issue for us. However, I have a deadline, I’m obligated to follow through to have this in place by 2006. So we feel we have exhausted all avenues to get additional funding or to get CATSA to move on what they've approved. We don’t feel it’s right, we are not happy with it, however, that’s as far as we feel we can go and, therefore, brought it forward to FMB for discussion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m not arguing; you know, this whole national security for Canada was driven by 9-11 and anywhere across Canada and the world they're beefing up their security and I think we are falling in line with some other countries about beefing up our security. It doesn’t matter where you live now, there is always potential. The establishment of this new facility or new thing that’s going to happen here at the Yellowknife Airport, it’s like having a restriction on young children buying cigarettes. Yellowknife is going to be like the official airport. All the other airports have to come through Yellowknife then get screened and then fly. You know, it seems like you are going to put a restriction on young children who are buying cigarettes, there is an official store where you go to get your cigarettes. So I guess in that sense it’s just looking at this, and I understand that the Minister has legal obligations, that our government has to, and we have to follow in sync with the federal government in terms of their national security and the transportation. I guess I would appreciate if the federal government would advise the Members in the North here, and that we have some concerns in the future about setting up projects like this that affect all of us, especially in light of things that we want to see happen in a community that we feel are more important than setting up this screening devise at the airport. That’s all I wanted to say. Thank you.