Debates of October 26, 2006 (day 16)

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister Bell.

Mr. Chairman, it is a little different than the discussion I just had with the Member for the Sahtu because we are talking about the interim agreements. The section that talks about tourism licensing and the interim agreements. I don’t think speaks to employment. Of course, where there is a settled claim, often, as I mentioned, there is the provision to enter into an access and benefits agreement. It isn’t quite the same in the unsettled regions. I will certainly concede that. But these are the kinds of discussions we need to have as we sit down to talk about what happens. We try to make sure that when the rubber hits the road, community interests are protected. We do have to go region by region, as I have said before. It’s going to be difficult to have a boilerplate model or example here. I think we are going to have to be flexible and come up with some process that works in each of the regions. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Anything further, Mr. Villeneuve?

Yes, as we move forward to develop regulations that are regionally specific, would it be safe to say that regions could include or incorporate into their own regulations for the region into any tourism licence, employment-specific regulations when dealing with the issuance of any tourism licence? Is that within law or is it allowable? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister Bell.

Post settled claims on settlement lands, yes, we do know it’s allowed. I am not sure it would be allowed or legal to hold up an operator’s licence on the basis of some concerns about the level of employment where you are talking about unsettled areas, but I can certainly check that and get back to the Member. Again I say when we are talking about issuing new licences, the support of the community is critical. I don’t think any tourism operator is going to want to go into a region where the region is not supportive of their activities, because I don’t think they are going to be able to provide a very good product for the customer if they aren’t going to get support from local guides. I would suggest it would be very difficult for them to make a go of it, not that you wouldn’t have some try and maybe in the past some have tried without community support, Mr. Chairman. These are the kinds of issues that we need to have a full and frank exploration of and sit down and go through. I would propose that we come back to committee with the regs and the nature of these issues that we have discussed in the regions and if there are still gaps and holes, we are going to have to talk about how to fix that.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Next on the list I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to weigh in on this debate a little bit and make comments about tourism in general. I am in support of this bill, but I do want to just talk about what we heard and I want to speak about a region that I don’t represent as a Member here, but we got to go to as part of the cost of living pre-budget tour. I was on the team that went to Wekweeti. Because of the time or the timing, a lot of community people were away but we did have a nice little meeting with the SAO and some of the community people. One of the topics that came out was the desire on the part of the community to do more on tourism activities. One gentlemen who was there is a licensed guide. I don’t know if I would call him an elder. He may be too young to be an elder, but to me he seemed very wise anyway. He really wanted to be able to do guiding work and he said there is no opportunity to do that. I believe the SAO also or somebody informed us that there is no EDO or business development officer in that community.

I think there were comments made elsewhere, not today, on this topic, but in other places where we speak often about a lack of administrative or business infrastructures to sustain, promote, enhance arts and cultural industries and such. I think that is very much related to the tourism industry. I think what the Member for Thebacha spoke about yesterday about the importance of water and how we need to balance our environmental goals along with resource development goals, I think the same can be said about promoting and supporting renewable resources like the tourism industry. From what I see, I don’t think we are doing as much as we can on that.

Now I don’t know all the details as to why we are not able to do this, but I can think of two things. Not of why we aren’t doing that, but just two observations that I want to throw in the mix. One is when you look at the aurora tourism industry in Yellowknife, it is something that we need to be proud of and we are proud of. The product there is really not only for the Japanese tourist to come all this way to look at the beauty and wonder of aurora, but I think there is a lot there and a huge part of that attraction is for people who live in a very densely polluted part of the world to come and instantly notice the noise level going down, the air feeling fresher, open skies and just general slow down of a busy life. If you come from some cross-section in Japan and come to Yellowknife, I think you could really notice that and they value that. They are willing to pay a lot of money and come a huge distance to experience that. While this industry has become successful due to a lot of effort on the part of private entrepreneurs, I think that sort of attraction and even more than that exists as a potential for small communities.

I know for a fact that the Japanese market or the German market would be very interested in going to communities like Wekweeti. Wekweeti has everything that Yellowknife has, and more probably. It is next to the most beautiful lake. The guide and the SAO spoke about some of the attractions that they wanted to show near there. Apparently the Franklin expedition went through there and there are landmarks to show that they went through there.

After the hockey game?

After the hockey game in Deline. There is a lot there to promote.

The other factor is, I understand that we are talking about the Tlicho area with self-government. What this tells me is that it takes more. Now we are dealing with a different governance structure, but it doesn’t mean that the GNWT is out of the picture and that the GNWT doesn’t do that. It just means that we have other players at the table, but we all serve the same population. So whether it’s with the cooperation and involvement and partnership with the Tlicho Government and Wekweeti community government and community people, as well as the tourism industry, I would like to see the Minister develop that. We should not have any communities like that without the resources to explore and to…It’s one plane stop from here to Wekweeti and I would like to hear from the Minister whether the department has worked on a plan like this, what is the potential for that and what do we need to do to get there? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think those are a number of good questions. First, I agree that just because there is a self-government arrangement doesn’t meant he GNWT is able to take a step back approach and wash their hands of the need to encourage investment, encourage entrepreneurship and encourage the development of tourism businesses. We are doing that. Obviously we would like to do more and that’s where Tourism 2010 comes into play. We have a number of initiatives that speak to product development, speak to tourism training in all regions but require money and investment.

We said currently we do have three economic development officers that serve the communities of Wekweeti, Whati, Gameti and there is one specifically in Behchoko. We also have an area superintendent in Behchoko. There is a Community Futures organization for the Tlicho. Obviously we have to work very closely with the regional leadership in that area. So we think that it’s a good framework for success there and support and we will continue to work. I don’t know if the Member had occasion to stay in the hotel overnight in Wekweeti, but there is an example of a business that we financed as a government. So we are involved in the region. We do think it has immense tourism potential. I would agree with the Member in that respect. We are there to support local entrepreneurs who want to come forward and develop tourism products. We have had a lot of discussion around marketing and destination marketing and our NWTT. That is one piece of the picture.

The other is for us to work with people on the ground to develop product so that when we are able to attract people here from other areas, that there is something for them to do and that they have a good time and want to come back. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. It’s good that we have a 2010 plan, but the Minister is just telling me that there are three EDOs serving that region. Why is it with EDOs serving three communities that we have a situation where in this community and we do have that hotel there, which is one more reason why we should be looking at programming? Why is there not programming like that product in Wekweeti for these people to guide? Have there been any pilot programs to bring people in? Has there been any effort made for this community to network with the Yellowknife community or any of the centres? Is there any plan or anything in existence that suggests that this has been looked at or that it will be looked at? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In terms of Tourism 2010, it’s the first year of that plan. We are working to start to roll out some product development initiatives. We are working in the regions. I should say that when I say EDOs, what we have done in that region is the option was available to regions to have what we call a community transfer initiative where they took over responsibility for the provision of that service and take money from us on a yearly basis and pay somebody a salary. That’s what we have done in that region. I do believe the one position in Behchoko is still a department position. It’s different by region. Some regions decided to take over the responsibility and we sent the money and they had a difficult time attracting somebody to do the job and had asked us to take back the role and we have done that. So it varies by region in terms of what our staffing response has been. We have either sent money and resources or we staff the position directly. There is a mix in the Tlicho region, as I have mentioned, with staff positions and community transfer positions. We are doing both. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Next on the list I have Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a bill that I am heartily speaking in favour of, heartily, heartily in favour of. The tourism industry is something that I and my family have had some connection with over a good number of years. The operators and the people who are involved in it deserve every bit of support and encouragement that we can give them. It’s a very distinct lifestyle, a very interesting and challenging way to make a living. It can be immensely satisfying but, in the meantime, there are issues that tourism entrepreneurs face that are perhaps unlike many others in the private sector. So I know this bill has been some time in the making and the industry, of course, is anxious to get it through and I hope to be able to help do that today.

The area of licensing, as has been discussed here, is one of special consideration. The area I was specifically interested in, Mr Chairman, was in the consultation area and the onus that I believe the old act put on tourism operators to be responsible for seeking or for generating and producing the approvals of communities of regional wildlife committees, of everybody who might be on the consultation list. Sometimes those lists, Mr. Chairman, were daunting, given that these are, in some cases, small businesses, very small businesses, but the requirement for paperwork for communication, for seeking approval, for many of these other things, elevated what are otherwise simple and straightforward businesses way up there in terms of just how complex we made the consultation process.

So what I wanted to ask, Mr. Chairman, is the onus still on the tourism operator to be responsible for generating all of the consultation approvals and requirements or has the system been arranged, so that there is more on us, if you will, or reliance on stakeholders or the government to shoulder some of this burden, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Minister Bell.

Mr. Chairman, obviously we have a legal obligation to do some consultation as well, but most of the onus is on the operator. As the Member has said, at times I imagine it can be a daunting task.

The reality of the situation is even under the current legislation, the current practice, it is very difficult to see a new tourism licence granted. It is quite stringent, the amount of consultation that takes place. We are not seeing a lot of new licences issued each year. We don’t expect to see a lot of new licences, I expect, in the near future. It becomes a lot easier in the settled areas where there are settled claims and regional people can benefit directly and feel that their rights are protected. It’s less certain in the unsettled areas and that creates some concern for the regions. So we are certainly there to work with the operators to help facilitate meetings. We do want to try to broker deals where we can make sure it’s a good deal for everybody. We want to promote the industry and protect the interests of the region. We certainly play that role.

Yes, the Member is correct; a lot of the burden is shouldered by the would-be operator who is seeking a licence. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does the new act then at least take the option or the avenue of bringing in timelines by which stakeholders or agencies are required to reply or not? Again, this is in the context that if an operator simply has the onus to show consultation and approval, we all know the difficulty of arranging meetings and getting everybody to look at the same thing at the same time. Sometimes this could take months or even a year or more for an operator to get a single approval from a single organization based on getting people together and being able to get to that level of the agenda.

So not at all discounting the significance and importance of consultation, but have we brought in any ways of streamlining this so that agencies do have a responsibility to reply in a timely way? Has that been improved, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Minister Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There currently are time frames for stakeholders to apply in the consultation section. We are looking for it here, in the current act, and those have been repeated in the new act as well. I would say that those are in the act and they are there and they will be followed, but we are going to work with would-be operators. If we have a good sense -- and we have regional people throughout the territory -- that the whole region is going to rise up against an operator, we are not going to waste their time putting them through the hoops and dealing strictly with these time frames for requirement. We are going to work to try to address the issues first. There is a time frame stipulated in the existing legislation and that will be brought forward in the new one as well.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Mr. Braden.

Mr. Chairman, I know one of the big intentions of revising this act was to reduce the paperwork, streamline the requirements that we had in previous laws making it easier on the tourism operator and I dare say on the government, the administrators, who didn’t have so much of this stuff to keep track of. Has this act resulted in a tangible and marked decrease in the paper burden, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Minister Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, there is a reduction in a couple of areas. It would be the two main areas; the annual renewal can be streamlined where there isn’t a change in the provision of service. That is much improved now we think and this is something that certainly the industry as a whole is embracing. The other area is in duplication, Mr. Chairman. There is more than one licence required now in a number of cases. So we are making sure that that would only be one licence. As you can see, we are now talking about guided activities as opposed to trying to get out there and have hotels and all these other things regulated by this tourism licence when we don’t think they need to be. They follow business codes and other things like this. There is no need for us to go and do this again. I want to clarify again, earlier I mentioned it’s in the current bill. When I am talking about time frames, it will be extended to the new bill. If I gave the impression that it was in the legislation, I apologize. It is in regulations currently and will be in the new regulations as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Next on the list I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is probably going to be my last comments to the Minister. I would like to ask the Minister, if not today, sometime in the next couple of days, about tourism dollars and the Sahtu region and the number of outfitters. I wonder about the amount of dollars they have brought into the Government of the Northwest Territories and into our region, as opposed to other outfitters that have commercial licences at Great Bear Lake. I am really interested. I think, Mr. Bell, tourism is going to be a key initiative in the future. It’s going to be a real key ingredient in terms of overall economics and working together. It’s important that we have a real strong balance. I spoke earlier about the aboriginal perspective and that hasn’t been there, so I am going to follow up with a question later on, Mr. Chair. If I could ask the Minister if he could provide me with that type of detailed information, not right now. I just want to look at the amount of dollars, for example, to get one sheep in the Mackenzie Mountains. I have been told $10,000. I don’t know. I have been told. I would like to see that type of information.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Just to caution you a little bit, you have to stay with the bill. That information I think you can get from the Minister at a later time. Mr. Minister, please.

I will certainly provide the data we have on what the industry is worth and we can give some examples of that. In the end, how much money stays in the region is hard for us to quantify at times, but we do have some data and I will provide that to the Member. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Bell. General comments. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do apologize. I thank you for allowing me the flexibility to go into another area. I do acknowledge the bill here. Mr. Chairman, I was hoping I would make a connection in terms of the new Tourism Act, let it speak to if there is a low level of animals, low levels of caribou, sheep, moose, and we have to take care of our own needs in the Sahtu region, does this bill, this act, speak to some form of compensation? I may be again on the border of my questions, but I wanted to ask about the Tourism Act. There is a tourism operation that we are talking about. I guess I am looking in to the future, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Bell.

Mr. Chairman, there is no section in this bill or envisioned in the regs where we speak to compensation, per se. I would say that it’s ENR who are responsible for the issuance of tags. As we have seen recently with some of the plans for caribou, some of the concerns we’ve had, the subsistence hunting and harvesting takes precedence. That’s the first interest that has to be protected far before tourism outfitting. Mr. Chairman, I imagine that will continue to be the practice. Obviously we have great deference and legal deference to the co-management boards in the areas and they really are the ones who are consulted and make the judgment call on when it’s time. We would provide scientific help as well, but when it’s time to start talking about limiting the number of tags and these kinds of things, that will remain in place. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Yakeleya.

I've looked forward to speaking with the Department of ENR and the Minister has to work closely with that department in terms of this bill here. To this bill here, Mr. Chairman, my last question is, would the Tourism Act bill here give, provide, instruct, regulate a sort of a meeting with the outfitters and the people in our region in terms of drafting up some sort of an access and benefit agreement? Right now it's on a gentleman's acknowledgment. It's good for us, so we better go into the communities and talk with them. It's good for our business. They don't want anything to happen in terms of the communities not having a good sense of us doing business in our region in terms of tourism. Is there anywhere in the future that we would see this Tourism Act direct face-to-face discussions with communities and regions? Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Bell.

Mr. Chairman, clearly, on new licences in regions where we have settled claims, yes. It's not this Tourism Act that would direct something like an access and benefit agreement, it's the claim, it's the legislation. Where we're dealing with existing operators, what I can offer to do is to bring the operators together with the communities to have a discussion of this nature. I think it's important and I do think the operators want to involve the communities. As I say, that's just good business. So we can facilitate that kind of activity. But for sure, there is the legal requirement to do those kinds of things when we're talking about new licences on settlement lands. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Bell. No further general comments. Does committee wish to proceed to the clause-by-clause review of the bill?

Clause by clause.

Clause by clause. Thank you, committee. We're on Bill 11, Tourism Act. Page 4, interpretation, clause 1.

Agreed.

Tourism operator licence, clause 2.

Agreed.

Page 5, clause 3.

Agreed.

Clause 4.

Agreed.