Debates of October 27, 2004 (day 29)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I said in my earlier statement, I am very passionate about this issue about housing in small communities. I grew up in my grandfather’s house, and my grandfather's house was taken down by the Housing Corporation who said that they would build a new building there for us. I'm still waiting for it today. In saying that, this is one of many stories that people in small communities have in terms of housing and that’s why I’m quite passionate for the people in homes. Like my honourable friend mentioned to me and mentioned to the House here, that is one of the issues that the people have in the Sahtu, saying that housing was going to be a really big issue. I wasn’t really sure about this until I got into the position of MLA at some community meetings with some Ministers and did some of the tours in the communities. Housing in our region is a crisis. I think that the Northwest Territories would deserve better than that. I think it’s about time the federal government is taking some notice and help us out more than they are doing right now.

I want to thank the Members for who have spoken in favour of the motion and I look forward to the vote. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. All those in favour of the motion? All opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I am going to call Committee of the Whole to order. The Members are aware of the items that are before us today. What is the wish of the committee, Mr. Menicoche?

Madam Chair, Committee of the Whole wishes to consider Bill 13, Supplementary Act, No. 2, 2004-2005, and Minister's Statement 68-15(3), the NWT Housing Corporation Minister’s statement. Thank you very much.

Is the committee agreed?

---Agreed

Agreed. Thank you. Then we will do that after a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

I am going to call Committee of the Whole back to order. We are going to take up where we left off yesterday. Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2004-2005, page 19, Transportation, capital investment expenditures, airports, special warrants, $3.4 million.

Agreed.

Total department, $3.4 million.

Agreed.

Thank you. Could you please turn back to the schedule on page 3? Part I, vote I, operations expenditures, total supplementary appropriation for operations expenditures, $11.201 million.

Agreed.

Part II, vote II, capital investment expenditures, total supplementary appropriation for capital investment expenditures, $5.45 million.

Agreed.

Thank you. Total supplementary appropriation, $16.651 million.

Agreed.

Thank you. Back to page 1, Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 2004-05, clause 1.

Agreed.

Clause 2.

Agreed.

Thank you. Clause 3.

Agreed.

Clause 4.

Agreed.

Clause 5.

Agreed.

The preamble.

Agreed.

I’m sorry, clause 6, on the other page.

Agreed.

Thank you. Clause 7.

Agreed.

Thank you. The preamble to the bill.

Agreed.

Thank you. Bill as a whole.

Agreed.

Thank you. Does the committee agree that Bill 13 is ready for third reading?

Agreed.

Thank you. Bill 13 is now ready for third reading. Thank you, committee. What is the next item you would like to go to? I believe we have Minister’s Statement 68-15(3), NWT Housing Corporation: From the Ground Up, Celebrating 30 Years. Any general comments? Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in his statement the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation made on the 30th anniversary of the NWT Housing Corporation he spoke of the significant strides the corporation has made in improving and supplying housing here in the Northwest Territories. I would say we have gone a long way in addressing the housing needs for northerners, but we have a long way to go yet before we can say we have made real progress and have met the housing needs of northerners.

Madam Chair, based on the figures contained in the 2004 housing needs survey and the fact that the federal government, through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, will be reducing the funding available for the delivery and construction of social housing in the Northwest Territories to zero by the year 2034, I would say that the Housing Corporation will be hard pressed to construct and maintain any new social housing here in the Northwest Territories.

We are going to be losing over $33 million a year in funding by the year 2034. I am not sure, Madam Chair, that we will be able to replace that money.

I look at initiatives in my riding of North Slave. The six market units in Rae-Edzo are a start. There are a lot of people working at the diamond mines who can buy their own units and I see the need for the Housing Corporation to develop a program to get these people into their own houses. I am not sure that the existing programs have enough funding available for them to do anything meaningful.

Madam Chair, in my Member’s statement earlier, I spoke of the need to modify the repair programs. I think we need to resolve some pride of ownership on the part of social housing clients. If the place is a dump, you are going to treat it like that and possibly do even more damage. That’s just human nature. These people aren’t being malicious.

Madam Chair, the corporation has to come up with a viable, realistic plan to deal with the federal funding loss and part of that plan has to be convincing the federal government to reopen the purse strings, which they aren’t planning to do currently.

Madam Chair, those are my comments with regard to the Minister’s statement on the 30th anniversary of the NWT Housing Corporation that was moved into Committee of the Whole. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you. Any further general comments on the Minister’s statement? Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I’d like to thank the Member for his comments. I believe that we do have to encourage more people, especially with our growing economy or seeing people with more dollars in their pockets with the diamond industry and oil and gas industry. I think we have to direct people who are presently in that high-income range to get out of social housing and get them into the private housing market by way of our programs. We have the EDAP program, we have the DAP program, we work with the banking industry to get these people into a mortgage so they can own their own homes and be able to access capital through a mortgage.

To date, since 1997 with the DAP program, the Housing Corporation has contributed almost $23 million. But we were able to access grants from the banks for almost $40 million. So we put almost $60 million of capital into our economy and this program is there to entice those people in social housing. More importantly, the employees working with our clients in public housing educate them on what it means to be a homeowner. I think again it comes down to our relationship that we have with our tenants to offer them different options.

One of the problems we’re running into is with regard to the arrears that people are carrying. Now they have a lot of dollars they didn’t have before because of the system we have of collecting that rent based on the formulas we use. In some cases, that’s almost 25 percent of your gross income. Again, we have to find ways of working with our LHOs to work with their clients, to work along with the ones who have high-income thresholds, to work into an EDAP program, a homeownership program and get them out of social housing so we can make those units available to social housing clients.

Again, we are working through different programs. We’re looking at a program now that’s a two-year, phase-in program where the client is able to pay the operational costs of those units on top of what their rent was before so they know that part of being an owner of their own unit means they will have to take on the responsibility of managing and making sure your bills are paid on time. They cover the operational costs, your power costs, your utility costs. Also they need to be able to manage their budget so they know you have so much money and so much money has to be put aside to pay for that mortgage. They need to be responsible for taking care of the utilities of that unit. We’re already in the process of developing that. We are working with clients who either want to own the unit they’re in or get into one of the programs I mentioned. EDAP is one of the programs where we assist you to go to the bank, get a mortgage and buy your own home, but I think we have to put more money into that.

I just want to point out to the Members that the Housing Corporation has been drastically cut since the 13th Assembly. There was a 10 percent cut across the board there. Again we’re realizing another 10 percent cut to the budget. Because of that it has had a direct effect on the operational cost of the local housing authorities to maintain what they have. They’ve had to cut back on a lot of the program responsibilities they had in the past. They’ve done away with a lot of the maintenance programs we used to have before. I think that is driving what we’re seeing today with regard to our needs survey. A lot of that is because of the cuts that have taken place have had a direct effect on those local housing authorities just to maintain and upkeep the maintenance of the units.

Again, I’d just like to thank the Member for the question and I’d be happy to direct those people who are now finding themselves and getting them out of public housing, but also help them by way of our programs and services to get access to bank financing and get them into their own private units. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. With that, does the committee agree that consideration of the Minister’s statements…Mr. Yakeleya, sorry, I didn’t see your hand. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in reference to honourable Minister Krutko’s statement with respect to the 30 years of celebrating the Housing Corporation in the Northwest Territories, one of the questions that has often come up in our small communities, especially amongst the elders, is the promise that was made by federal government agencies in terms of housing and how they get into housing.

This is very young, in terms of the Housing Corporation being in the Northwest Territories; only 30 years. Previous to that there were other houses in the Northwest Territories that were managed by the federal government agencies, mainly Indian Affairs. Some of those houses are dear to some of the elders. Now that the Housing Corporation has 30 years of experience in the housing business in the Northwest Territories, some of those old-timers still think these houses are theirs. This is the promise they made, along the lines of an agreement similar to the treaty agreements that were negotiated in the late 1800s and Treaty 8 and Treaty 11 in 1921. Some of these elders still hold dear to their hearts the agreements that were made between the federal government and our people. I hope in the celebration we also recognize some of these old agreements that are being honoured by the Housing Corporation, Madam Chair.

The idea I want to touch upon is, in the 30 years of housing in our small communities, we have somewhat created a dependency on the GNWT in terms of being dependent on them for everything. We’ve gotten away from that pride of owning a home. Elders have talked about today having running water, electricity, a furnace. We’ve become somewhat less active in owning a home because everything is not like the old days when we had to haul water and chop wood and keep the house warm.

Right now, we have all these programs and services. On one hand we complain that we don’t have enough, and on the other hand they may have spoiled us. We’ve created this dependency and now it’s very hard to get out of it. I hope the department has some very effective methods and means to create that sense of ownership with our people; that it takes a lot of pride and ownership to own a home. We’re slowly learning that in small communities, because at one time we didn’t have houses.

We were so nomadic, we just travelled from one part of the region to the next. We set up our camp and took it down and travelled. However, times have changed and I just wanted to note that when the Minister tabled his celebration for 30 years, it’s very young in the Northwest Territories. A lot of things have changed since that time. Housing seems like it’s being reverted to where we will have responsibility for owning our own homes. But things have changed so much that I hope there are means and mechanisms that the Housing Corporation would look at implementing into our communities.

In closing, Madam Chair, I want to say that there are a lot of good people in the communities who are working with homes and providing these services to our people, especially the local education boards. They take a lot of heat sometimes in our communities because of the decisions they make and the tough choices they have to make in terms of who gets a house and who doesn’t get a house. Sometimes we’re really hard on our own people. We’re really hard on them in terms of the services that we provide in our own communities. Sometimes we don’t quite understand or have the compassion to pat our people on the back and say they’re doing a good job. We’re very critical sometimes and sometimes that hurts us.

In terms of the celebration, I think you also need to congratulate all of the boards that have served in the last 30 years in our communities that have made some decisions. They’re doing the best they can. That’s what I want to say here. I hope that kind of recognition goes out to our people. Mahsi, Madam Chair.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Any further general comments? Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know the question of the treaties has always been out there. I think one of the problems we have is that there was no written text with regard to that statement. It’s always been a verbal commitment that was stated. Until someone is able to prove that was one of the obligations in the treaty…You look at the treaties and the obligations that were made by Canada in the treaties, there was nothing in writing that refers to housing. Again, it comes down to interpretation.

For me growing up in Fort McPherson, before the Housing Corporation came around, everybody was independent. Everybody owned their own homes, they went out and got their own logs, they were able to maintain their own families. They were proud people. I think because of the whole idea of making life easier and taking away that responsibility, it has put a lot of dependency on people in social housing.

I think one of the things that we can look forward to is now that the aboriginal organizations such as AFN and the Government of Canada are looking at this as one of the core problems for First Nations communities, it is now getting some national attention. I think it’s important that we, as the Government of the Northwest Territories, work with First Nations communities but, more importantly, that we establish a policy across Canada to deal with on- and off-reserve people. Right now housing is a responsibility on reserves through Indian Affairs. Housing responsibility off reserves is CMHC.

We need to improve the quality of life in communities by delivering housing programs that meet the needs of First Nations people in First Nations communities. I think it’s also important that we, as a government, realize that programs and services that have devolved over the last 30 years from when we started off with HAP houses, from SHAG to Webber houses, where people went out and got their own logs for the HAP units or people bought into the different SHAG programs. these programs had to evolve over time. You hear a lot of frustration from people in communities where now they’re being told they have to pay a mortgage or go out of their way to get a house, but they know someone 10 or 15 years ago who got a HAP unit for free. So because times have changed, there has been inconsistency in how programs and services have been delivered.

I believe that in these upcoming meetings with the federal Minister and our provincial counterparts, they are looking at establishing a First Nations conference with AFN and different agencies to look at First Nations housing across Canada. That includes on and off reserve. I think more importantly the statement that was made with regard to the Throne speech clearly identified aboriginal housing as one of the issues that will be dealt with.

With that, hopefully that answers the Member’s question because I think it’s something that we have to work out, along with Billy Erasmus who is our representative on AFN. They are looking at this, but they are also looking at a possible pilot project in the Northwest Territories for aboriginal housing for the Northwest Territories. With that, thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Any further general comments? Does the committee agree that consideration of Minister’s Statement 68-15(3) is concluded?

Agreed.

Thank you. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Menicoche.