Thank you. Mr. Elkin.
Thank you. As the Minister mentioned, we'll be coming back to the 20232024 main estimates process for the operating costs to staff, for example, the Stanton Legacy. But we do have projected very rough estimates of what the cost of operating per bed would be for each of the facilities based on current staffing models. So those will change as we fine tune. And obviously, for the larger facilities, the per bed cost would be lower based on just because of the fixed costs. So, for example, we're projecting roughly for the 74 beds in Yellowknife about 219,000 per bed whereas if you look at the Inuvik, which is a smaller facility, 16, it's about $349,000 per bed. So ...
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I'm I'm doing some quick math. I think this is well over $20 million a year in O and M, and I think that's even a very conservative estimate based on what I just heard.
Can the Minister just speak to, I know that Health and Social Services Authority is in deficit. We're trying to find money always for health. The costs are ballooning. Is there can the Minister speak to kind of whether we are confident that we will have the fiscal room to operate these beds. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, I find that a difficult question to answer. The Legacy project was planned before I came into this role. But, you know, always there was going to be O and M for all these extra beds and so I'm assuming and I hope I'm right about this that it's on someone's radar that, you know, once we finish paying for the cost of the renovation then we need to staff up the facility.
In terms of, you know, the total ask and where it's going to come from and so on, that's going to be a future budget discussion.
I will just say about the Legacy project that the beds are going to be phased in. So I don't believe we'll be looking for that total amount of money right off the top but rather in a staged process. And if you look at the other longterm care projects that we've got on the books at this point, they're also being staged so that, you know, the costs for both the capital and the O and M is spread out over a number of years. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know the territory spends I believe it's upwards of $20 million on outofterritory services, and we have many residents with kinds of very complex needs and longterm care in Alberta. Can the Minister just speak to whether any of these longterm care beds would be able to repatriate those people. I know some have complex needs and services beyond what we're planning to build here, but I'm just wondering if any of these additional beds will bring people home from Alberta. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Yes, thank you. That's not our intention. The intention is that we are going to use an international needs assessment tool to assess people for the longterm care bed needs, and there will be a threshold of nursing and support services required before people are offered beds in longterm care. I am aware that in some cases now, people with special needs are in longterm care, and think that's a default because there hasn't been accommodation for them elsewhere. But you might know that we're doing a supported living review at this point, where we're trying to develop an interritory model for support for people who are currently living in facilities outside of the NWT. So we are interested in finding a solution to that, but we're pursuing it separately from the longterm care beds.
Thank you, Minister. Any further questions, comments? Member for Monfwi.
Yes, thank you. Longterm care facility, I know in my regions we have one. But we have residents from other communities in the region that are in my community. And not everybody, you know not all of them are happy to leave, but there's no facility, no program and services in their community.
So I'm just wondering if we can have an increase in service for home care and for housing support that allows for elders to stay home and for more what I mean there too is that to have more staff. And because I know it's going to cost lots to build a home care facility in the community, and then, you know, provide more services with the staff and services, like, to accommodate the elders that do not want to leave their home. Thank you.
Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Minister.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you for that question. Yes, at the same time that we're doing this planning for longterm care, we've also been doing planning for changes to home and community care. Just before this Assembly began, there was a comprehensive review of home and community care and some recommendations about how the program could be strengthened.
One easy example I'll give you is that the hours needed to be more flexible, that home care was primarily being offered only during work hours, 9 to 5, and that there was a need for home care in other hours. There's also a need for more home care if we're going to accommodate people to stay in their homes rather than move into regional centres to longterm care homes. And not only is that what we hear people want to happen, that they want to stay in their own homes as long as possible, it's also the most cost effective way to support them.
We just heard how much it costs to operate a longterm care bed. So if we were able to, you know, spend a fraction of that money on home care, a personal support worker and nursing care for people in their homes, that would obviously better be better all around. And so that is something that we're actively working on now. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
Knowing that the longterm care facility one's going into Hay River, and it was initially supposed to be a 48bed facility, and it got decreased to 24 beds. And there was lots of discussion about that and back and forth. I guess what I'd like to ask is, you know, has there been any more analysis done on whether that 24bed is acceptable or should we be looking at a 48bed facility. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Health and Social Services.
Yes, thank you. I thought for a small moment I might go through longterm care without Hay River, but no. Okay, happy to talk about that.
It's important for the Member to know that the planning work and design work has already started on the Hay River longterm care unit, and it's based on the 24bed model. And I think that the Member knows that it's going to be located adjacent to Woodland Manor once H.H. Williams Hospital is demolished. And I understand that in the future, should there be a need for a much greater number of beds, there's room on that campus to add another pod or wing of longterm care.
But as things stand now, we're confident in our population projections. We appreciate all the questions we got to sharpen our projections and make sure that 24 beds was the right number. And I feel confident that it is.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I appreciate the work that's being done. And I understand that, you know, the projections you came up with was actually based on on, you know, the number of beds required and also the decrease was partly due to providing more support to home care. Is that still the case? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Yes, the two things that drove the change in the Hay River bed count was, first of all, an understanding that Fort Smith needed more beds than they had and were projected to need more into the future. And so instead of having people come in to Hay River from Fort Smith, it made more sense to look at building a longterm care facility in Fort Smith to meet that priority of helping people to age in place, although they might not be in their own homes, they would be in their own communities. So that was definitely a factor.
The other is what I just mentioned about the international assessment tool to try and understand who needs to be in longterm care and at what point. So that is one of the drivers in looking at how many beds we think we're going to need into the future in all locations, not just in Hay River.
And then, finally, those people who may be screened out of longterm care because their needs are not acute enough to be in longterm care, then that's where we need to bump up our home care so that those people are given the assistance they need to stay in their homes. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I see the estimated completion date is 20242025. I'd like to know if we're still on track for that as we have not started taking down the old H.H. Williams Memorial Hospital. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, thank you for that question. I'll ask Mr. Heath to confirm what the project schedule is.
Thank you. Mr. Heath.
Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Member noted, the H.H. William building H.H. Williams building hasn't come down yet, but the tender was issued a couple of weeks ago so that work is going forward.
I will note that the based on that, and the potential curve balls of COVID, this is an optimistic schedule, and we will have to be very focused in order to meet this target. And if we get new surprises with the construction industry and the supply chain, that may be at risk, and we acknowledge that it is an optimistic schedule. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. One other I guess point I'd like to bring up or issue as well is that on that on the land where the new where the extended care will be going and the hospital's coming down, there is also an old medical clinic on there. And my understanding that it's only used for storage of medical files right now. And will that in any part, I guess, you know be part of this, taken down and constructed a new facility, new extended care facility? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the question. I don't think there are any plans to demolish that building. I think it's called the Commissioner's building. There are no plans to demolish that. It is holding files that go back to the founding of Hay River, medical files that go back to that point.
We, in the department, have a significant storage issue with old medical files, and what we need is the budget to have a dedicated team to start sorting through these files and deciding what to do with them. Some of them may be disposed of, some of them may be digitized. Some of them may be held back for other reasons. I understand there's a group of records being held back for a potential tobacco lawsuit, so. So the business of storing the records is really problematic. And so for the time being, since we have a place in Hay River to store records, we're going to continue using that place. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess with respect to the old clinic and the storage of files there and, you know, I know it's problematic, you know, where to store these, and knowing that the government is looking the department is looking at ways to digitize or another way to store, you know, to keep them, I feel that I guess that's going to be quite a few years down the road, whereas that building could be repurposed, in my mind, probably for a permanent day/night shelter, and what would have to be looked at is another facility or to store these files, which I understand is a combination of cold and heated storage, which would be sea cans possibly and then just a small heated one. Such a building would probably be better located near the health centre. Can the Minister just comment on that. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Yes, thank you. Yes, I understand what the Member is saying, that could we find alternatives. You might not use a sea can for another storage, but you might use the Commissioner's building for another for another reason.
And so I don't know if there has been any effort to find an alternative location by the Hay River Health and Social Services Authority. But that's something that we can inquire about and look at the relative costs, what would it cost us to obtain and secure and heat a sea can or heat a portion of a sea can or a smaller one versus the cost of keeping the records where they are right now. So that's something to follow up. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I guess I would just urge the Minister to maybe to reach out to the Hay River Health Authority because as far as I know they put together a discussion paper or some numbers down on what it would cost to find a place or build a place to store those files closer to the health centre. Thank you. That's all the questions I have.
Thank you. Did you want to respond, Minister? No. For anybody who hasn't spoken to longterm and continuing care. Member for Nunakput.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in regards to I bring this up every year, and in regards to longterm care for my riding. We have home support. Thank them for, the staff for what they do and the home care support workers in the community. I want to thank you for all what you've done for our people and our elders. But I really think it's time to build a like I've been bringing up working on bringing up in Sachs, or Ulukhaktok, trying to work with the Minister to get that done with a private company that's able to build it. They will come, you know, so to say. But I'm really hoping that we could get into an agreement within the next year. You know, we got two years left in our our terms, and hopefully we can see that because my elders in the community of Ulu and Paulatuk and Sachs, they're all not wanting to go to Inuvik. Travel there is too costly. Only time you'll get to see them if you're travelling on a medical, most likely. Or for work. I really think it's time to take that step to there's a design and that we could do to work with the community corporation, their business arms, and partnership, in trying to make a committee for the community with local leadership and people from the community to try to work together to find a way through this. So I'm wanting to know from the Minister if she's willing to work with us to try to get longterm facility in Paulatuk and Ulukhaktok. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Member for inviting myself and others to tour his riding in July. And one morning I walked down the main street in Sachs Harbour and visited a couple of elders in their homes, and they were very clear with me that they had no interest in leaving their community, and they had no interest in leaving their homes. And so then the issue is how to support them in their homes, and home care is the way to do that.
It seems to me that what was needed there more than anything was housing for seniors as opposed to longterm care. So last spring feels about nine years ago but I think it was February, the Minister of Housing and I went to Fort Good Hope, and I saw an NWT Housing Corporation project of seniors housing, a 9plex that had a common kitchen and a common recreation area, and I thought that that really was a great prototype for small communities that don't have the need for 24 beds, which is our standard, is to do it in increments of eight. But I thought that having this purpose built facility which has no barriers, roll in shower, you know, ramp to get into the building, that this was really a great way to help seniors be comfortable and stay in their communities at the same time. So I'm looking forward to engaging with you and with the Housing Corporation to see what we can do in those High Arctic communities where people want to stay, and should stay, to be in touch with their families, their language, and their culture. And so if we can make that happen, I'm certainly very interested in doing that. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Nunakput.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for that. I'll take two.
Laughter.
Even a six bed. Even six six and six. But the best thing, though, that's really good to hear because it's going to help alleviate the pressure on my elders and families, because you know it as well as I do, our elders are so important to us and they're the ones that made the way, and that's why we're here today, and we're trying to leave them home so they could because once they go out the community, that's you know, it's not good. But I want to just comment, thank the Minister for that, and I look forward to working with her and the Housing Minister to get to Tuk. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. Okay. So I have Member for Kam Lake and Member for Monfwi left, and then any other Members to ask questions of this? Okay. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it looks like I ended up on your list at the perfect spot because it leads right into my question.
A lot of the information that we are seeing about longterm care facilities coming out, especially postCOVID, are saying just what exactly what the Minister is saying, is that the way to go is home care for care for our Elders and our seniors and prolonged quality of life, especially when you get to stay around family. And in addition to longterm care facilities, which we absolutely need, we some people just need a place to live and some people just need the ability of family to help them out. And so one of the things that comes up quite often is multigenerational housing. And I think this feeds in quite lovely as well to what the Member for Nunakput was talking about, is the ability to stay in your community, to live close to family, and to have the support of family. And so I'm wondering what work is being done on the part of Health and Social Services to coordinate with the Housing Corporation on multigenerational housing for Infrastructure, because I have noted that while that doesn't appear here, it also does not appear in the section for Housing Corporation. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Yes, thank you. I'm not aware that we're doing any work on multigenerational housing. Our role there is to make sure that the people are in those houses are receiving appropriate home care so that their needs are being met to age in place safely and happily. But I'll just ask Mr. Heath if he knows of any work that's going in this area. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Heath.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're not actively working on that file.
