Debates of November 26, 2021 (day 85)

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I guess I'll lead into what the Minister said there. I recognize that there's some disagreement about portions of the gap. You know, if a community pulls in a bunch of federal infrastructure money, that doesn't get factored into the formula. There's different ways to calculate needs and I'll note some communities have probably built far too much water and sewer lines for the size of them and some are on trucked water, and there's obviously a lot of engineering analysis that goes into assessing that. But can the Minister speak to when we expect to have a new formula agreed with NWTHC. The timeline for that work. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you. We may not agree with what the numbers are, but we are working with NWTHC. We've reached out. We're having conversations. And that's the extent of what I can tell you right now. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I'm wondering if the Minister can provide a little bit more on the needs assessment. I get some of the point of conflict is based on these kind of arguments of well, you can go get, you know, federal money for that, or perhaps you don't need a brand new pool, or you know, things like that. Can the Minister just speak to work we're doing to kind of reevaluate what proper infrastructure looks like for a community.

I guess in the larger context, this is a very big conversation happening across Canada. Most of our municipalities are in just terrible fiscal situations and have outbuilt themselves in regards to infrastructure and can't afford to maintain it. Ours are obviously in a similar position.

I'm actually curious what the department's philosophy is. Are we telling, you know, certain communities not to build a certain way; are we providing direction like that? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. No. The new deal, no. Real simple, no, we're not telling the communities what to do. We're giving them the budget. They're building what they see. In my previous experience in the department, I would tell people not to build a pool. Costs a whole bunch of money to operate a pool, whether it's staffing, water, chemicals, and that. Don't build an arena either. Sometimes the needs are there.

So I can tell you that I have had questions asked on this floor why I've said no in previous years, but now with the new deal, the communities have been we've given them the opportunity to do their direction. They understand their what they want to do, what they they're making choices. And so there's consequences when choices are being made. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess just a comment. I think there's probably I recognize we have to let communities make their decisions on their infrastructure. There's some complication there in that a lot of that infrastructure we sometimes become ultimately responsible for. I also think that I mean, it's not the GNWT's not really in a position to tell people not to build a bunch of infrastructure you can't afford to maintain. But I think there's probably some very large policy work to be done to assess all of the community infrastructure, all of the GNWT infrastructure, and have a better picture of the needs assessment. I recognize the scale of such a project, but I just really don't think our smaller communities have a handle on it, and I don't really believe our GNWT has a handle on it.

Can the Minister speak to the extent that we're doing work to really get a picture of how bad our infrastructure deficit is. I know we all just say we have a billion dollar infrastructure deficit. But I'll note the vast majority of infrastructure in the territory, in any province or territory is municipal. So what is the extent we're tracking that and what work is being done there? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of MACA.

First of all, I disagree with the Member that the communities know what they want. Communities understand what their needs are. They make some choices. So we need to be very respectful of that. I have a problem when somebody says, well, we need to tell them what to do. No, we need to work with them, we need to educate them, we need to also make them understand what the challenges are out there. So we work with the municipalities. I know the Member represents Yellowknife North. I represent small communities and they tell me what they need, whether it's a pool, whether it's an arena, whether it's a community hall, whether it's a new sewer lagoon. So we work with the communities to do it. So that's our job, not to tell them what to do. So I would have to disagree with the Member on that. But we're more than willing to work with the municipalities, and we have amazing staff that are able to be reached out to and we're able to work with them on that. So as far the infrastructure deficit, depending on who you talk to, we would see what the deficits are. So that's one of our challenges moving forward is that's why we're willing to work with NWTAC to see these challenges moving forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just trying to understand how the gap works. So say, I'm going to use Yellowknife as an example because then I'm not getting into a debate about communities.

If Yellowknife builds a new pool, that increases the needs for their capital. So does that then mean we adjust the formula and they are then required to new money, or is it just based on a per capita kind of design, or does it actually depend on what has been built in the community? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. And Minister.

Thank you. For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, deputy minister.

Speaker: MS. GAREAU

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the MLA is correct in some respects. We know that there's a direct link between the capital that community governments construct and the O and M required to operate that capital. The MLA's example of a new pool is a good one. There's a lot of new infrastructure in many community governments.

We do take into account the capital that's on the ground in terms of our O and M, in doing our O and M calculations. We have a budget for operations and maintenance for water and sewer, and we do come forward during the annual main estimates process, business planning process. As communities build more capital or they change their capital, it does have a corresponding impact on our O and M as well as the watersewer funding policy. So we do those calculations internally in the department, consult with NWTAC if required, and then come forward during the annual capital planning process if there is any adjustments required. Thank you.

Thank you, deputy minister. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yeah, I too just wanted to echo my colleague's disappointment to not see the extra two and a half million dollars here again this year. I know that the communities can really use that money.

I guess my question is of that money that was added to the MACA budgets, how many of that flowed through to the communities themselves and how much of that was taken up in either administrative or other MACA work and didn't actually get into the coffers of the community? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

It went all to the communities. Thank you. Based on our formula.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Okay, that's good. I appreciate that. I guess just the question is with the ongoing cost of operations, etcetera, and maybe it's just me not being knowledgeable of how this works, but I can't see that the O and M is going to escalate over the next couple years particularly due to the supply chain issues etcetera with COVID. So are we expecting is there a formula that then adds money every year to this number, or will it be a recalculation coming. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

Thank you. Deputy minister.

Speaker: MS. GAREAU

Thank you, Madam Chair. So on the capital budget, the $29 million that you see in the draft capital estimates, that has previously that was increased just a couple years ago. Previously, it was $28 million. We do not apply a forced growth factor or any sort of calculations. That's a standard figure that appears in the main estimates every year. And it's on the O and M and the operations and maintenance and the water and sewage side where we recognize the costs to community governments of operating their capital. And that's where we do any forced growth changes, things like, you know, increased cost of fuel or power or, you know, higher costs to hire staff and other operating costs experienced by community governments. That's where those are captured. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Okay, yeah, that makes sense to me. But I guess then my question would be as communities, you know, they're not deciding one year to the next to create infrastructure or build infrastructure, so will there not be an increased infrastructure cost or capital cost due to what's happened with COVID, say, for ongoing projects and how will communities deal with that increased cost if they you know, if this budget is stagnant for this year, or these COVID years. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you. First and foremost, you know, we focus on what the government does, but there's also own community- sourced funding that they be able to allocate, or generate. We also have gas tax. We also reach out every time the federal government comes to us with additional programs out there, we try to tap into that. Unfortunately, you don't see it into the capital plan but there's been lots and lots of money from the federal government that's come into the communities, but because it's only a onetime opportunity, it doesn't show up and it doesn't also show up in a deficit. So for further detail if I missed anything, I'll actually turn to the with your permission, to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Deputy Minister.

Speaker: MS. GAREAU

Thank you, Madam Chair. MACA staff work with community governments to help them develop fiveyear capital plans. So annually, we sit down with community governments, help them review their plans, look at their infrastructure needs, look at what the cost impact is going to be.

We try to assist them with doing projections around, you know, supply chain issues, rising costs of materials, and what impact that may have on their ability to fund what capital.

Community governments also many of them have really good relationships with each other. You know, they get information from each other. They also frequently will hire technical expertise to help them, you know, develop their capital plan and to better understand what kind of costs they may face in the future so they do that planning ability annually to help recognize that costs may rise, and many community governments also have capital reserves to be able to draw on if they are experiencing cost overruns in their capital projects.

And as Minister Thompson stated, there is federal funding available as well for all community governments to assist with some priority projects. Thank you.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I appreciate that. I think that the Minister and deputy minister are able to explain it more eloquently than I can ask about it and so I appreciate that they understood what I was trying to get at there. And I'm glad to hear that there are some capital reserves, but I would assume that's very community specific and not necessarily all communities would have that ability.

I guess more of a comment here too is just that this does seem like another area then, if we are have communities relying on federal funding, and we've talked about it lots with the housing situation, then we need those grant writers and people within those communities in that capacity there for them to be applying on all this federal funding, and I think again it crosses all the departments in the GNWT, and we've spoke to that. We had hoped there was going to be that position with the housing money. We don't think it was quite what we wanted it to be. So I would also say that MACA could very much be looking to increase grant writing capacity or funding capacity writers within the communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister, did you want to respond?

Yeah, thank you. So the department actually works handinhand with the communities. We have regional staff out there that will work with communities. So when federal funding comes out that fits into well, sometimes they may not fit in to what we're looking at, but we try to work with the communities to see how we can make it fit in to what they're trying to achieve. So it might be a different project that they may have to do later on instead of what they're trying do. So we will look at it through that way. So we very much have staff that work together from headquarters in regions to work with them on it. So we agree that we need to be able to do that, but we do tap into it. And soon as the federal government starts providing opportunities for new programs, our headquarter staff is reaching out to them to have those conversations, what's the parameters, what the direction is and what we need to do. So we're very capable of doing that, but, again, it's about working with the communities and meeting their needs as they ask us to help. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Any further questions on this section? Seeing none. Municipal and Community Affairs oh, okay. Well, we're going to run out of time so then I'll just I'll have to carry it over until Monday, we're going to run out of time. Member for Frame Lake.

Kevin O'Reilly

Frame Lake

I was scrambling looking for the motion about how to finish off the item we are on, but I think I have to move that the chair rise and report progress.

CHAIRPERSON (Ms. Semmler): Thank you. There's a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and nondebatable. All those in favour. Opposed. Motion is carried.

I will now rise and report progress.

Report of Committee of the Whole