Oh, Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm furiously trying to flip between various documents here.
In the Minister's opening remarks, she talked about a $113.5 million negative appropriation, and I guess I've been here six years; I'm not sure I've ever seen a negative appropriation. Maybe once or twice before, but not of $113 million. So can I just get some more explanation from the Minister on what this is.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in past years, certainly last year, there was concerns raised about the fact that there were carryovers and that the carryovers of course don't come until fairly late in the cycle. So this was an effort to better reflect the work that is in fact ongoing, and so the department asked the Department of Finance asked all departments to make an effort to determine what their actual ongoing projects schedules would be so that projects that are not going to be advanced on this cycle could have their budgets adjusted now rather than having to be a carryover. So instead of seeing it later, what we are seeing is that, indeed, the appropriation is being removed at this stage with a view to lining up in future years when in fact it's expected that the projects will be moving forward and the actual costs are being incurred. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. So this money that's being taken out of the current financial year, so this appears before us now as the capital estimates of this $113 million that's been transferred into the capital estimates for 2022-2023; is that what I hear the Minister saying? Thanks.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, it's not transferred in. It is cash flowed differently, and perhaps, Madam Chair, I'm going to see if in fact Mr. Courtoreille may want to take a stab at explaining that.
Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and good evening. Yes, the Minister's correct that it is a reduction of $113 million in the 2021-2022, but that amount does not all get reallocated to 2022-2023. It gets reallocated to other future years as well, depending on when departments expect to incur those capital expenditures. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. So I always thought you couldn't kind of, like, carry over money from one year to the next. A big chunk of this is probably federal funding. So, like, how many years into the future can you carry this stuff forward before authorization runs out and you got to give the money back to the feds. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I anticipate that that will depend project by project. I'm not sure if we could perhaps give some examples or if the Department of Finance might be able to give some examples. So I -- and certainly, we'd have to come in with some discussions with our -- the federal funders where that is the case. So I'll see if, again, if there's an example perhaps deputy minister might be able to provide.
Thank you. Deputy Minister MacKay.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So all of these transfers are compliant with the federal agreements that they're under. So -- but as for a specific example, I might turn to Mr. Courtoreille to give that, if he can. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And the Member's right, we are only appropriated for one year at a time. So for those amounts that are beyond the 2022-2023 year, those projects would remain kind of in the priority list for future capital estimates and reviewed by the Legislative Assembly. For example, for the projects that are funded by ICEP, we have a three-year rolling forecast for that program, and that's updated every year. And our intentions would be to come forward with recash flowing proposals depending on that three-year forecast for those ICIP programs -- or projects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Okay, thanks for that. So beyond that re-cash flowing, are there other, like, carryovers that are taking place? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Certainly, you can't say with a hundred percent certainty that there won't still be carryovers from the 2021-2022 infrastructure budget. What we're trying to do is minimize the number of carryovers that do take place on this. So certainly is our -- right now with -- and knowing that the construction season is -- for this year, at least, is drawing to a close or has drawn to a close. So hopefully we're in a position having reviewed this and bringing the negative appropriation, that there won't in fact be carryovers. So it's a different way of looking at the accounting of it that this one is again, our intention and our hope was to be more transparent at this stage rather than simply waiting until later in the cycle to say by the way we didn't spend the money. This is an actual effort to say look, to stay on top of it -- look just to stay on top of it, actually, yeah. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. So I guess just so I understand what's happening here now, we're going through each of the departments and parts of departments to show where this money is going to be re-cashflowed out of the current financial year into future years; is that what we're doing going through this supplementary appropriation? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Okay. Well, that's -- I'm a little bit better informed. I'm still concerned with the amount of carryovers or recash flowing, as it's called. What -- what's driving this? Perhaps COVID might be. But is it also our ability to get the money out the door. Do we need more people in the Department of Infrastructure to do contracting? Have we maxed out the contract capacity in the Northwest Territories? What's driving this $113 million re-cash flow into future years? Thanks, Madam.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think the Member's listed certainly some of those factors. It's all the same factors as what drives -- when we bring a carryover forward in the spring. It can be a case where a project may not have had its approvals in place, a project might not have been able to find contracting, there may have been delays perhaps in design. There's certainly, in the last couple years, have been projects that have been delayed and, you know, due to COVID. You know, for example, the Tulita Health Care Centre was delayed when people weren't able to literally get into the community safely and compliant with concerns around ensuring protection against COVID-19 in a small community. So, you know, and again I think folks will recall we did have a significant number of carryovers as a result of COVID. I think those have started to wane as far as a singular reason. But all of the items that the Member's mentioned are still live and present. But, again, you know, the hope is that by instituting this now and intending to go through with this forward is that departments are all under an obligation to be paying attention as they go forward, budgets are kept more up to date, variances are kept more up to date. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I've been asking probably now for five years if there's a way to categorize carryovers, and now I guess we're calling them re-cashflowing by reasons so that we could then sort of pinpoint what some of the major reasons might be and actually address them and find better ways to actually get the money spent in the year in which it's actually appropriated. So is there any of that kind of tracking done now, because I've been asking for it for five years. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, every department certainly does have to justify if the actuals that they're incurring are significantly different from what's been budgeted. They certainly have to provide an explanation for that. But, again, it's going to be project by project and department by department because there's different reasons. And in fact, some projects have more than one reason why they may be experiencing a delay. So, you know, that matter of going through each one, I'm certainly happy to provide that further detail. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions, comments for this department? Seeing none. Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, energy and strategic initiatives, not previously authorized, $17,115,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditure, total department, not previously authorized, $17,158,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Committee we will now consider the Department of Education, Culture and Employment on page 7. Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2021-2022. Department of Education, Culture and Employment, capital investment expenditures, junior kindergarten to grade 12 school services, not previously authorized, negative $3,087,000. Does committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. So this is an interesting one where we're spending money for portables in Colville Lake, and I'll be the first to admit I've never been Colville Lake but I've heard stories about how unacceptable the school is there. So we're spending money on portables but there's also a negative appropriation of $740,000 in here for I'm not sure exactly what for the Colville Lake school. So can I get some explanation as what's happening with this money in and money out for Colville Lake school? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Colville Lake school renovation has been delayed somewhat and so as an interim solution, because the school right now is in quite a dire state, I understand that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment are looking to bring three portables in. Some of that work is getting done now, and that's the money that's reflected here. But unfortunately, the procurement process for these portables was somewhat delayed and so a large portion of those efforts is going to be moved into a future year. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. So the $740,000 that's been taken out, what was that originally going to be used for, then? Thanks.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, for the detail, perhaps I'll turn it to the deputy minister first and see if we have that detail available. Thank you.
Thank you. Deputy minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just going to turn it over to Mr. Courtoreille for the detail on that.
Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The $740,000 was related to the initial construction of the new school. That construction schedule has been pushed back, and we're re-cashflowing that portion of the budget to a future year when the department expects to incur those expenditures. The $203,000 highlighted by the Member is for the purchase of portables. Although related to the capital build of the new school, it is not related to the base construction of that new building. Thank you, Madam Chair.
