Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. What I will do is I'll make a commitment to have a confidential update to committee and then we, as collectively [Audio Unavailable] a conversation moving forward what we will be doing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. While I appreciate the opportunity to get a technical update but I'm going to be asking the Minister questions before the end of this sitting on this matter because the public deserves to know whether the provincial government is going to allow us to sit on this committee or not. So that's a heads up to the Minister that I'm going to be asking for answers in public about this.
I want to move on, though, to a couple of other areas here if I can, Mr. Chair.
I believe this is the part of the ENR budget where inspections for water licenses are conducted, and if I've got that wrong maybe the Minister can let me know. But how have we done with frequency of inspections, particularly of the diamond mines for the water licenses, during the COVID pandemic? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you. My understanding is we're still doing our inspections but for further detail and making sure I understand it correctly, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The water license inspections are completed by lands officers at the diamond mines as they're going there to do their lands inspections.
With respect to inspections across the board, ENR is always working with water resource officers to improve on inspections and on the timeliness on getting them to the boards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
[Audio Unavailable]
Minister.
Yeah, so as the Minister for Lands, I can verify that we do have our lands officers going in doing the inspections presently. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I'll probably have some more questions when we get to the Department of Lands on this on the exact frequency so that's more of a heads up, but that's all I got on water today. And I want to thank the Minister and his staff and yourself.
Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's my understanding that EIA is currently leading some work to lobby the feds to amend the MVRMA or possibly devolve the MVRMA and pending the outcome of those negotiations, that would then allow ENR to resume work on the Waters Act and Environmental Protection Act. Can I just clarify if that is the case, that we have to wait for that MVRMA work to be done before any further work on waters or environmental protection? Thank you.
Mahsi, Mr. Johnson. Minister.
I really hate giving these this answer to the Member but, yes, you are correct.
Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I recognize that MVRMA is both federal legislation and led by EIA but I'm just I think we are long overdue for a regulatory system overhaul and a big part of that is waters and EPA and obviously MVRMA. But does the Minister have any update on when the MVRMA work will be complete so we could then continue to finish the EPA and waters work? Thank you.
Mahsi, Mr. Johnson. Minister.
Thanks. I can't speak for another department but I can tell you from our side of things well, I can't tell you. I'll ask the deputy minister to update you on where we are. I don't think the Member wants me to say "soon". So I will turn to the deputy minister with your permission. Thank you.
Deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't think we have an exact date at this time but and I think that would be a good question for EIA but I will comment here that part of the reason that that decision was made is because of Indigenous capacity to take part in all of these initiatives.
In the background, while this work is going on, there is still work on the Waters Act and EPA being done so when we're able to move forward, we'll have the materials and items ready to go. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I'm happy to hear that, and I'm sure I'll have questions for EIA when the time comes.
I guess my other question is there's been some rumors or possibly talk of some sort of corporate restructuring involving some possibly ENR, MACA or Lands. One of the things that I don't quite understand is that lands officers and water resource officers are two different positions. I think they are very ripe to become one position environmental officers. I'll note that lands officers already do water inspections at the diamond mines. So can I just get the Minister to speak to whether that merging of those positions is something that's being considered? Thank you.
Mahsi, Mr. Johnson. Minister.
Yeah, so I just want to clarify that, you know, we're talking amalgamation or the Member is talking about it. We're not talking about that right now. We're not talking about positions. We're not having that conversation. But my understanding is that there's two distinct positions and you need those two distinct positions. But for further detail and clarity on this, I would like you to turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The water resource officers are enabled under the Waters Act and the lands officers under the Lands Act. The Lands Act is with the Department of Lands. The Waters Act is with the Department of ENR. But so are the renewable resource officers the environmental protection officers, the forest officers etcetera. There are quite a few officer positions that are out there and at ENR there's a lot of crossappointment amongst those officer and as you have already heard today, there's some crossappointment with water resource officers and lands officers for efficiencies sake when dealing with the diamond mines. So when it makes sense, those positions do the work of others and pardon me. When it makes sense, those they're crossappointed is what I meant to say. But in general, that's the way that the split has occurred. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Are there any other questions from committee on this section? Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I'd just like to talk about the release of treated oil sand tailings in Alberta. And I guess it's difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that we don't hear much from the government's side on this. We hear Indigenous organizations, you know, opposing it. You know, we're downstream from it. We have claims out there that have, you know, sections about water rights and management. They have sections in there about the right to fish and wildlife.
And so I would ask the Minister if his department is collaborating or working with the Indigenous governments to deal with this issue because it sounds like we don't have a lot of clout when it comes to what's happening in Alberta and, you know, I just want to make sure we're using every avenue we can and, you know, we've got settled claims that are in, you know, entrenched in the constitution, you know, and they've got sections in there that we could use. So I just want to make sure, you know, that we are doing everything we can to protect the water and wildlife in the Northwest Territories. And, you know so I guess the question is, what are we doing? Are we working with Indigenous groups? Are we using the claims, the sections in the claims? So a couple questions there. Thank you.
Mahsi, Mr. Simpson. Minister.
Okay, thank you. I want to be very clear to the House, and to the people that are listening here, no release of oil sand process water is currently allowed under the Alberta Environmental Protection and Enhancement Act or the federal Fisheries Act, so it's not allowed. It's not allowed.
When you talk about what we're doing, I'm not in as I said previously, I'm not in there to make it public out there, slamming. We're trying to work behind the scenes, do the work we need to do, and we do have a relationship with our Indigenous governments. But for that detail of exactly, we've already had one meeting on water. We were planning on another one. Again, COVID hit. But for further detail on exactly what we're doing in moving forward thing, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I'll start with the fact that it's the studies that are being done now at this point to be able to enable potentially regulations so we need to review the materials that are coming out of those studies to be able to engage on what they mean, because we don't have all of that information yet at this time. But what we do have is a system where we do engage with not just Indigenous governments but also other water partners.
How it works is that we have an Indigenous steering committee that has members from Indigenous governments across the Northwest Territories. And one of them is on the bilateral management committee with the GNWT for the Alberta agreement, for the BC agreement, etcetera. So there's a link back to that. And there's also a committee called the Mackenzie River Basin Board where there's a Indigenous member as well so they go to those meetings and they come back to the Indigenous steering committee and work together that way.
Then we have an annual meeting of water partners, so that includes anyone with interest in water where this matter has come up. You know, it's definitely of interest and we've heard about it the whole time we were developing the water strategy and the action plan. And I think it's important to note that the Minister has provided briefings and responded to concerns from the Dene Nation as well as from the Council of Leaders within the last year on this matter as well. So there's quite a lot of communication that is occurring.
The claims are reflected in the agreements because we couldn't have made an agreement with Alberta that didn't and, of course, we wanted to uphold what's in the claims and those agreements. So there is recognition of substantially unaltered quality, quantity, and rate of flow which is in the claims. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, we have these I understand we have these agreements. And you know, we have the claims agreements as well. Yet, you know, I look at, you know, case law, you know throughout Canada and throughout the US and, you know, there's been issues that have arisen. So I just want to make sure, you know, your department and this government is prepared, you know, to ensure that water flowing into the Northwest Territories is protected and do everything we can, whether it's through agreements, through the claims, it's through the courts, whatever we have to do, and we have to be prepared, you know, at some point to, you know, possibly, you know, go that route. Because, you know, water's going to be a you know, it's a commodity that everybody needs and it wouldn't take much to, you know, to destroy the habitat here in the Northwest Territories if we get contaminants coming down. You know, we talk about fish and other wildlife as well. So I just want to make sure that, you know, it's front and center and we're using everything we can. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi, Mr. Simpson. Minister.
Front, centre, back, side, overtop, underneath it is very much a priority of this department, this government. I can guarantee you there's been lots of conversations and the department is working very diligently with our Indigenous governments and with the Alberta government and the federal government to make sure that these transboundary water agreements are enforced and work properly. There is mechanisms in there on how we where we go. And at some point in time, if we have to go there then we go there. But right now we are doing everything that we can and I have to say the department, starting from the deputy minister all the way down to our water inspectors out there, they're doing their job. They are doing good work in making sure that everything's being addressed. But I couldn't agree with you more and I couldn't agree with Mr. O'Reilly any more. These things need to be addressed. Sometimes in government we're a little bit not at the speed that people want but we're trying to do it appropriately and respectfully but also for the residents of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a word of caution I guess, is that when you use the word such as "guarantee" unless you've got 100 percent control over what's happening, don't use it. Thank you.
Mahsi, Mr. Simpson. Any comments, Minister.
I guarantee that I'll listen to him on that one. Thank you.
Mahsi. Mr. Simpson? I don't see any further questions from committee. Mr. Edjericon.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yeah, I think this is a be a discussion on this one here. I just wanted to let you know that I was also involved at the Mackenzie Valley Impact Review Board as a chairman for six years and we also were really concerned about the water and transboundary. So we also made arrangements to work with the Alberta government on the transboundary agreement to share information. And that information, to me, was really important because we kind of the mandate, the review board at the time was making sure that we protect the wildlife, the air, and the fish.
And I guess the other thing I was going to say is that you look at Giant Mine. You know, there's a huge cleanup that happened there. And that was probably one of the toughest EAs I've ever been through. And at the end, we made a decision that's based on the evidence and the people that was all involved. The GNWT was there. Also proponents with the federal Government of Canada etcetera. So, and I'm glad the Minister talked about the agreements they have with Alberta government now and sharing information and so on.
And it's still you know, when I go back to my constituency and I listen to the elders and I listen to Chief Gerry Cheezie from Alberta, they still have issues and concerns about water and downstream users etcetera. And I'm not really sure how far your agreement goes in terms of the water license for the proponents in Alberta. And, like here in the North, we have a process that deals with those water license, you know, Ekati and Diavik etcetera, and we could make sure that, you know, the environment's going to continue to be protected etcetera.
Also up here with the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, the way we do business now is they start put security in so that mining companies don't end up like Giant Mine. So I guess the question for me is that in Alberta, I'm not sure how far your water license or your agreement goes but how do we get involved if projects continues to happen. I know the oil prices are down. There's in places in Alberta where, you know, the refinery, you know, I heard a bunch of stories about not very good oil, they call it dirty oil and that kind of thing. But what I'm thinking, Mr. Chairman, is that how do we get involved to make sure that we don't have another Giant Mine and making sure the water's protected?
Mahsi, Mr. Edjericon. Minister.
I'll start and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. We don't want another Giant Mine. However, we can't tell other jurisdictions how they monitor or how they allow development. It would not be good if we are if you look at it, if we have Nunavut telling us what we can and can't do. We need to work with our organizations and we do address issues that way, but as for the how our water management is done and if I misspoke I will turn to the deputy minister to clear up everything and answer the other part of the question on how this transboundary agreement works. Thank you.
Mahsi. Deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So we don't get to make the decisions about development in another jurisdiction but we do get to provide input into those decisions, and there's lots of ways that we can do that. So at the first level, we have a transboundary agreement and there's notification clauses in that agreement so we understand and know what development's going to happen. And there's monitoring in that agreement as well. So we get information from Alberta on the monitoring in Alberta so we have an early warning system with respect to water quality and quantity as things are coming towards the border.
We also work together with Alberta to do extensive monitoring at the border. So we have fish monitoring, bug monitoring, water monitoring, quality and quantity, to be watching at the borders to see if there's any changes that are happening. And some of that is communitybased monitoring which involves communities and Indigenous governments in that monitoring. Other is monitoring with some of the academics and scientists from different places that come and help to support us in that work. We have scientists at ENR; as well we engage experts from outside ENR to review the documents that we do get if we need particular expertise that we don't have. So some of the data gaps that they're looking into right now, the information they provide to us, we will be reviewing it and we'll have experts review it as well.
The agreement itself does not stop us from being able to intervene in a project. So we have gone and provided comments on Suncor, most recently, as well as some in BC that we've done previously. And the agreement doesn't stop us from having legal mechanisms available to us should the agreement not be able to if we're not able to get to where we need to be in that case.
So there's lots of ways that this could ultimately work out and our preferred way is to work with Alberta to get the information and collaborate on the monitoring and make sure that we're getting the information we need from the monitoring south of the border and analyze that and work with Indigenous governments, as I mentioned in my previous answer, you know, through all of those committees, to put forward our perspective and make sure that it's very clear what the residents of the Northwest Territories' interests are with all of these transboundary matters that are before us. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Edjericon.
