Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yes, one of the challenges with journeymen, as the MLA is alluding to, is that as they do their training they require certain numbers of hours of work on the specific trade to become certified and often at the small community level, that can be really challenging to obtain the numbers of hours they require.
One of the things that we've noticed with the approach we've taken with our contractors this year is because they're doing them as work assignments, then it does allow the trainee to work among different employers to get their hours to be able to work towards their trade. So there are some different ways we can approach this. And I think as part of the renewal, one of the things we've done is we've reached out to our LHOs to have a conversation about training needs. And already in some of my early conversations with the LHOs, they've spoke to the fact that as newer technology has come in with houses and that, that their training is not meeting the needs of what they have to service at the community level. So I fully expect as part of our conversation with the LHOs that we'll get some recommendations about changing the way we look at our staffing complement for our maintenance in our communities and how to address that through training and apprenticeship. So I would look to this conversation we're having with LHOs about how to do a better job on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Deh Cho.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. Mahsi for that. Regarding, you know, having a hard time getting the hours to meet their apprenticeship, you know, hours per year, that's not a problem when you have someone on staff that recognizes journeymen. You're on staff and you're on pay. So your hours are covered automatically too for the whole year. Because even I as just a housing maintainer, I was able to collect all my hours when I worked there when I was going to go challenge the OBM course but someone didn't allow me into the course for I don't know what reason. But anyways, the hours are not a problem to get. You can get that. And I know through preventative maintenance that when you go to service a furnace, there's four hours per furnace roughly. That's what it is, in the preventative maintenance check. In order to do a proper job on a yearly basis, you have to put in those hours because it's pretty detailed when you have to blow out the dust from all the squirrel cages and everything else. And then changing nozzles, and then you have to go back into getting the furnace to run smoothly again, which is a bit challenging. There is, you know, ample opportunities.
I always said in the Housing Corporation, you got opportunities galore to do whatever you want because you're doing flooring, you're doing basic electrical. You know, you're doing quite a bit painting, everything. It was, you know, it was a love of my life at that time when I did maintenance, and I did it proudly, you know, and I don't see that now because I see, you know, fascia and eavestrough, everything, hanging and I'm just scratching my head saying what is going on here. You know, when I was working, that would never happen, you know, that wouldn't be allowed to happen. But anyways, so the hours are there for sure, and I'm glad that you will be looking at it but I really encourage you to really put some money to it and get these positions into communities, being mindful of the size of the appliances that we're working with. And it might be going against the water and gas inspectors. I don't know how come they I'm not saying much on that anyways.
I'm just wondering about the page 377, your heating fuel. I think you already know where this is leading. I know you probably get tired of me and my little wood pellet boiler stuff. But I'm going to tell you something here, you know, and I've said it before to the Minister numerous times, the wood pellet boiler system, because I was a project officer in Hay River, and we had a system put into Fort Providence Deh Gah School. And when I asked the fuel delivery guy after we had it installed I says, how much fuel are you actually pumping to the school now? He said well, prior to that, we were almost 3000 litres a month. Now, you know, we'd be happy if we even get 500 litres, he says, because the fuel system is acting as a backup now and the wood pellet boiler system is running as the main source right now. It's the peak season when it's really cold in the winter, then you have both systems going. But the majority of the time, wood pellet boiler is running all the time. So, you know, and that's why I speak about it, and you got, you know, 2600 units across the Northwest Territories and that's eating up $9 million, you know. Maybe the challenge to the corporation is let's see how we can reduce that amount and start looking at central systems in all the small communities. I would be more than glad to, you know, be the pilot project, you know, to put clusters of houses to one system, put another cluster of houses in the community, have four or five central heating systems if need be. But I would really, really encourage the corporation to give it a shot. Mahsi.
Thank you. Member for NWT Housing Corp or Minister for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Member for that. And I don't mind you bringing this up continuously; that's fine. And this is where we work with the Members and looking for improvements for the Housing Corporation and looking at different ways of doing things and looking at cost savings as well.
With this, I'm not too familiar with the supply. Like, I just commenting on Nunakput as an example, Sahtu as an example, that these are communities that are not on the highway. So looking at what supply would be offered to those regions and also the expertise on what type of training that these people would need. But looking further south into the Deh Cho, Nahendeh, and the Yellowknife North Slave area and whatever, that this possibly can be something that we could look into further. We've already had the biomass biomass, and there was two of them. My mind just went blank. But there was two energy savings initiatives that we did we did enter into throughout the territory. So I'll just take that as a comment I guess and I and looking at our future builds with the coinvestment fund that the communities can access.
This is something that I will highlight to them as well too, and I would like to possibly work with Arctic Energy Alliance as well in looking at the possibilities of how we could work in conjunction, and they are the experts when it comes to energy savings. So I appreciate that comment.
The other thing I just wanted to just respond as well too, for the tracking system, yesterday vicepresident Jim Martin had confirmed that we have 21 journey certified workers, I guess, and then we had we presently have 33 work assignments through the tendering of the 90unit delivery. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Okay, thank you. I am aware and I'm you know, I've been talking to a lot of people, to a lot of my community my constituents as well. So there are a lot of people that I know want to be homeowners. And some do not want to be living in a public unit, you know, but they have no choice. So I know that there's lot of aging homes. So and even, you know, one of the housing or housing goal is promoting homeownership program as well.
So I see I saw one of your policy that was on the social media, and I don't think that one will work in really small communities because in there, in one of your policy in the policy, it states that do you have enough income to pay for operating and maintenance expense, because this will not work for many small communities where many small like as, you know, the 2019 Health Chart Report that was published by the Government of the Northwest Territories, it already said it in there there is not enough jobs in the small communities; there's the income for family is low. So how do like, it's not going to work for many of the community members. So is there any way that you can change the policy, make it more friendly for others in the communities where there's lack of resources, jobs, the family income is low? Is there any way that we can change the policy to accommodate the people in the small communities? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And just to respond to the question, I appreciate this as well too because I kind of you know, I come from a smaller community as well too, and I see the need for homeownership. I see where the comments have been coming forward as well and looking at our renewal, this is exactly what's going to drive the change for the Housing Corporation and the opportunity to change those policies, where they're going to work at the smaller community level. And, you know, one of the comments that I did get throughout the Northwest Territories is, you know, just sign over the home to us and let us operate and maintain it.
But we need to make sure that they're able to afford those units as well too. And I don't want the policies to be barriers. I want it to be opportunities on how do we work with our clients. So thank you for that comment, and it's a policy review that we are doing and I will take that back when we're when we get to that review of the homeownership. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Well, it would be nice, yes. Yes, I hope that change will happen in that review.
Another one too is that I know there's lot of people that are living in market rental and the public unit, some of them want to become homeowners. Some of them are still paying max rent. And I think some of them probably pay over $500,000 for a unit because and what is the housing doing helping these families that have lived in the unit for 20 or more years? Are you guys reaching out to those families, to those people that maybe they want to, you know, transfer the ownership of the house to them for, like, a dollar? Is there anything happening that, you know, promoting that to the community members? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and I'm just I'm loving this conversation to be honest because, you know, this is something that I've worked with the department for as well too that, you know, like I said, I come from a smaller community. I've been amongst my residents as well too where they've lived in these generational homes and they've raised their family and they've got grandchildren.
So what the corporation has done is they've sent out letters to all of the Housing Corporation tenants and seeking if they're wanting to go ahead and looking at a possible transfer where we could be looking at them becoming homeowners of those units, but also considering a formula that I want to bring forward to the corporation and how do we transfer these units. If they've been occupying the units for 20 years, 10 years, 15 years, what are we going to develop, what does that what is this going to look like. So that is coming forward to the territory as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
It's good that, you know, we're on the same page because we're both from the small communities. Yes, I think that's going to be good. But are you is the Housing Corporation going to assess the value based on what it's worth, not or is it going to be based on or what it was worth and then based on market value? And because like I said yesterday in one of my Member's statement, is it fair to sell a house to someone with that doesn't have running water or the flush or the toilet don't flush, or they don't have anything in that unit? So I just wanted to know how is it going to be based on? Are you going be is it going to be based on assessed value or market value when you going to be approaching the people who have been living in those units for over 20 years.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have been working with the department, and I want the approach to be a whole assessment but taking into consideration the years that the individual has occupied has occupied the unit and obviously the condition rating as well too.
But the other thing that we're also speaking of is once we transfer the unit, what type of funding, would those public housing homeownerstobe, would they be entitled to? And that's a number that we're putting out there. And this is nothing that has been committed, but I've been looking at to transfer these units in a fair, right condition. So that's an additional amount of money that would be put towards the homeownership program. But we don't have those further details but as we go forward, we will have an opportunity to review those. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Thank you. Yes, thank you. I have three minutes left, and I'm watching my time.
Okay, because it's just that since I said that there's not enough jobs and, you know, like, we know that lot of them are income you know, like, the it's just well, according to the report, I'm just speaking from the report too as well, you know, and so that's why so so, because already in many of the small communities, income support is already paying, you know, Housing Corporation for some rent. I'm just wondering in this situation, is it possible for those who are under your program, under mortgage program, can the income support program pay for the mortgage in the small communities where there's lack of jobs, employment opportunities in the small communities? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, the public housing program is a low income program that is available to low income earners to house them. So as the same with income support is to, you know, provide income where there we see hardship as well too, at a for a temporary amount of time.
So I need to bring this back to my department as well because I don't because getting into homeownership is where the client can actually afford and be stable in those units as well too. I don't want to create any hardship or any and address the real issue that is going on there. If they are income support, there may be struggles for them to operate and maintain their own home if they're having to be supported by government services. So I would have to bring this back, and I just and really look at our what is expected out of our homeownership programming. But it's not for government support to be paying mortgages on the individuals' behalf. We need to make making sure that there's stability and there's affordability from those clients to operate and maintain these houses. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
I think maybe the Housing Corporation should do is that review the access program, housing access program from 20 years ago, because I think in there there was income support were paying the expense and were also paying the rent as well, or mortgage to the Housing Corporation. So there was you know, I mean it was done before. So I just need to it would be nice if the Housing Corporation can review, you know, the previous policies. Thank you.
Thank you. Any follow up comment, Member for Minister, sorry Minister of NWT Housing Corporation?
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yes, to the Member, like, I'm familiar with the access program. I actually did purchase that over 20 years ago and ended up with no house at the end of it. You know, life happens for everybody, but.
At the end of the day, I just want to say that for income support to be paying for a homeownership program, that the Housing Corporation does its best for client service. And I would need to bring this back, but I'm confident to say that we probably would have reprofiled that access unit into public housing in support of what was best the best interest for the client. And like I had said, we need to make sure that we're not setting the client up for a future debt, that we're trying to work with that, and we need to make sure that the client is comfortable enough to operate and maintain those units and take care of all 100 percent expenditures.
But with the Housing Corporation, we do have at that time, we had subsidized mortgage sales, that we didn't sell them for 100 percent of the purchase. So that's just my comment for the response. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to stress a couple things. The waiting list in the community of Thebacha is 212 on the waiting list. And I'm just wondering about a couple things with regards to first of all, I want to find out how many homes are going to be available new in the 20222023 Estimates?
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And the Member is specifically speaking about her riding?
We are scheduled here for 20222023 for Fort Smith for two units. And in 20212022 20212022, the CIRNAC oh, sorry, I'm getting these numbers mixed up, sorry.
Here I have 20222023 receiving two public housing units. This is under the CIRNAC, federal funding that we did receive. And also scheduled for this year's delivery for 20212022 are two units for Fort Smith. And for our coinvestment delivery for Fort Smith, they'll be receiving four. And they should all be constructed by 20222023.
I could follow up with the Member and give those numbers because it sounds already confusing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Thebacha.
You know, we're a regional centre. We're not I can consider Fort Smith still a small community. That is you know, the amount of homes that are going in there is not going to meet the requirement obviously.
I also want to talk about the homeownership program and the retrofits. I want to know how many retrofits are going in to the community of Thebacha.
Minister of NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Member for the question.
You know, when we had the 90unit delivery that we are projecting this within the lifetime of this government, this is additional funding that we got from the federal government, and it's went on for constant advocacy with Canada to recognize that we have an aging we have aging infrastructure in the Northwest Territories. We're still trying to operate and maintain units that are over 40 years old, and Canada needs to recognize that and work with us.
And I was you know, I was fortunate and happy to be receiving the funding that we did that we were able to get allocated.
But also I just wanted to tell the Members that we tried strategically to making sure that each of these communities were at least to be receiving one unit out of the 90unit delivery and recognizing we have 33 communities and looking at the stock that we have, there's some communities that don't even have a public housing unit, and making sure that they do have a delivery for this year. So I tried to distribute these units very fairly but recognizing 33 communities, 90 units.
I know it's not enough, but our continuous conversations with the federal government is not stopping. We do have the Council of Leaders working group where we raised this as well too where the Indigenous groups are able to take that conversation at their own levels and have their conversations with the federal government. And then also the territories having a housing working group with the appropriate federal ministers as well in raising this constant issue for the territory.
And in regards to the retrofits, the numbers, I don't have that. I just have the unit delivery. So I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin to respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. For 20222023, we have scheduled 12 major retrofits for Fort Smith. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister or Member for Thebacha.
Madam Chair, you know, the thresholds that are required for anyone wanting to have homeownership or any other thresholds within the housing department in the Housing Corporation, when is the last time they raised the thresholds? Like, has it been 20 years ago? Has it been two years ago? Has it been one year ago? Because a lot of, you know, young people that are wanting to go into homeownership, they both got jobs and then all of a sudden they're $120 over the threshold to buy the house that they were in when they first started out and didn't were in public housing. And now they could afford to go into homeownership but then they're told, oh, you're just over the threshold. Everything is based on threshold in this housing department that it's sometimes it's unacceptable, the answers, and nobody's thinking out of the box. They follow a little a little thing of policies, and they go through them and always disappoint everyone. And I'd like to know when was the last time that the thresholds throughout the whole department with homeownership, with waitings on list, with and how they do things. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to quickly comment before I hand this over for the appropriate date, that we've looked at the rent scale and we've looked at the thresholds as well too.
Right now, with our policy review, I you know, as Minister responsible, I want to make sure that I recognize hardship.
Hardship is something that that I considered when delivering this program. Are we keeping people at poverty level? Are we able to help them to excel and become homeowners and really looking at those barriers that are existing in the Northwest Territories.
But also I want to making sure I want to make sure that I'm working with the department to display fairness and consistency, that the Housing Corporation is here to support low income earners as well too and making sure that that funding is provided to the people that are most in need. And that is what our strategy is about, and making sure that we recognize that.
But also looking at the thresholds too, I recognized that a person making $120,000 living in Nunakput is not very much, you know, and really taking those considerations, that the cost of living as well, the fuel prices, and just basic living as well in those High Arctic communities but throughout the Northwest Territories. So I hear you when speaking like that as well too.
And also taking into consideration when we're looking at these thresholds, that I'm wanting to look at health challenges, the limited mobility, the cost of living. I want to making sure that we really bring that reality in to the policy changes that we are making, and we take those all into consideration when we're looking at program delivery. But I really want to stress fairness and consistency. The programs are available for the people that are most in need, critical need as well. Madam Chair, I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin to respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This past couple of years, the Housing Corp has revisited a number of its homeownership repair programs, and there has been some adjustments on the homeownership programming side with regards to CNIT levels, core need income threshold assessments. But obviously in discussions with our president and our Minister, there's and others, there's certainly more work to be done in this area and I understand that'll be certainly part of the upcoming renewal initiative. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Thebacha.
I just want to I'm going to ask the question again because I didn't really get a direct answer.
I would like to know the last time that the Housing Corporation has reviewed and renewed the threshold issue with regards to homeownership, rentals, all these things. And also because it's a major block for a lot of people that are just starting out in homeownership. It's a major block in the rental department. And it's a big concern to a lot of the people that I've talked to throughout the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin to respond at the last time that we looked at the threshold and we looked at the rental rates as well too, when the last time we reviewed. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So with regards to the homeownership programming, that's within the last two years that that assessment was done. Regarding the public housing program, certainly well over five years since that assessment was done. There will be, as mentioned, certainly more assessment in this area in the coming months as part of the strategic renewal. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Seeing there's no one left on my list for community housing services, we will move on to the executive, beginning on page 3 oh, Member for Tu NedheWiilideh, sorry.
Thank you. And first of all on housing, I just want to just briefly talk about housing.
I just want to mention that I'm also a carpenter by trade. I've worked all over the North, worked for some big companies, worked as an independent consultant, been to many meetings in the North in regards to the Dene Nation, Akaitcho, etcetera, and front and center is housing. And from the people I've been talking to up and down the Valley and also in our constituents, they say housing is broken, the policies don't work anymore for our people.
And so when I look at your plan here, and I really like looking at your the fouryear plan that's been put together here by the MLA here last in 2019 and 2023, and housing's in there, and I like the way they're talking about moving towards working with Indigenous governments to look at building relationships. That's important.
We hear all the issues on housing but nothing seems to get done. They say policies are barriers. I have a constituent in my community of Lutselk'e whose bathtub is, right now it's filled up with sewer. And that person there was told that he can't get a program to fix that repair because he makes too much money. And then if he ever tried to sell that house or turn that house over to the daughter, then they don't make enough money to qualify for a program. So I'm concerned that when we say we're going to work together and start working with Indigenous governments, then we should really do something about it.
Right now, we're seeing that my constituent right now for public housing repairs or sorry, just to fix up your assets, the Housing Corporation assets, it's $3.4 million. But there's nothing there for repairs, homeownership repairs. Even if we had money, we still got to jump through hurdles to get that money. So if you want to work together, it seems like the Housing Corporation's applying for money through the same department in CIRNAC, and it's First Nations now, it seems like we're competing for money now for housing. We're not working together. We're not working with aboriginal governments.
You know, if want we can fix this problem we all got to work together. And the thing is that we talked about coinvestment. How is that going to work if we come together trying to deal with some of these monies that you are applying for from Ottawa? My question is, is your policy going to continue to apply? Because right now, I got constituent members in Lutselk'e that are really dire hard in need of homeownership repairs. Not to mention the policies that are that created a lot of these problems in our community, we have a lot of vacant homes that are sitting idle in Fort Resolution. We may have about 20 maybe homes there, that are sitting idle. Same thing in Lutselk'e, N'dilo, and Dettah.
So going forward, I mean I don't have any issues with the staff or anything like that. I just want to make a point here is that this issue is not going to go away. We all need to work together to fix this problem. I applaud my colleague here, asking that we need $20 million for housing. That's not enough. We need more money for fixing these houses to meet it, the demands in our communities. But going forward, right now the communities are saying, oh, we don't like to work with the Housing Corporation because their policies don't work for us. Now we're going to work with Ottawa and try to get our own money.
So to me, when you listen, that's what they're saying. So we got to fix that relationship with Indigenous governments going forward and work together. No longer creating policies that only suit one side. If anything, we should be the monies that we get going forward, whether it be the National Housing Strategy or coinvestment or anything like that, maybe it's time that we start working Indigenous government and do a contribution agreement. So that way here, the communities have the ability to do the work. But most importantly, what I see in here is that we want to create jobs. People are looking for work. So Madam Chairman, I just want just mention that because housing is important, and we got to fix it. Mahsi.
