Question.
Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Any abstentions? The motion is carried.
Carried
Tabled Member's statement 29219(2), Tabled Document 56719(2) will be moved into Committee of the Whole. Thank you
Motions. Notices of motion for the first reading of bills. First reading of bills. Second reading of bills. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters, Bill 23, Bill 29, Bill 38, Tabled Document 56119(2), with Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes in the chair.
What is the wish of committee? Member for Frame Lake.
Merci, Madam la Presidente. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 56119(2): Main Estimates 20222023, with Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Mahsi, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. We will take a recess and resume with the Housing Corporation.
SHORT RECESS
I now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are reviewing sorry, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 56119(2): Main Estimates 20222023, and we are considering the estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. We are in the section of executive.
I'm going to ask the SergeantatArms to escort the witnesses into the Chamber.
Minister, will you introduce your witnesses, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have with me here today president of the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Ms. Eleanor Young, and vicepresident of the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Jim Martin. Thank you.
Did you have other witnesses that you were wishing to change out at some point today, or these are the just the two?
Depending on the section, I also have with me associate deputy minister Jamie Fulford. Thank you.
Okay, thank you. Just make sure that you let me know through the chair when you want to switch out the witnesses so I can have the SergeantatArms all right. So welcome. And we are on the executive. And I'm going to give the floor back to Member for Frame Lake for the remainder of his time.
Thanks, Madam Chair, much appreciated. I'm trying to remember exactly where I was on Friday. It seems like a lifetime ago, but. I guess I was trying to figure out how the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation determines when to go to the Financial Management Board for more resources. And I think I heard that there was two areas of forced growth that the corporation sought additional funds for, and looking back at Hansard from Friday, was for property taxes and incremental costs associated with expansion of public housing programs.
So I know that we all know that inflation is going to be probably around 5 percent for the current year. How has the Housing Corporation accounted for inflation in, or what we know, in all of its operations and why just these two areas for forced growth? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Housing NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have president Young respond. Thank you.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So when looking at our budget and pressure points, as the Member speaks to, you know, we take a look at each forced growth cycle comes up, look at the areas where there are uncontrollable costs or controllable costs that we need to address. When it comes to inflation, of course inflation hits us first off in our capital area and so when we're looking at our capital plans, we take a look at current operating costs, what our tenders are coming in at, and wherever possible we try first to deal with those pressure points from within and then if they cannot be dealt with from within, then of course we have the conversation with our colleagues at finance about what opportunities or approaches may be available to us to look at.
Similar with our retrofits, we have a budget. We do our planned work every year. We start with that. Then as we start to get costs in, if we need to make adjustments we first look within and then, you know, if that doesn't provide the opportunity then we use the annual cycle through through our colleagues to apply for and look for opportunities for relief if it's an uncontrollable matter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I guess I just want to encourage the Minister to come forward to the Financial Management Board more often for requests for additional funding, especially with regard to forced growth but also to expand the programs that they offer to finally get our housing out of core need.
So lastly, if I could ask very quickly, when are we going to get this plan to get our housing out of core need? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have President Young respond as we are working on that report and just for the when that report will be ready. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Our target is to have the report finalized by the end of March.
Thank you. Member for Frame sorry, no more time. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And I appreciate the comments on both Friday and today from my colleague from Frame Lake in regards to funding for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. And one of the things that was said on Friday struck me. It was in regards to the process for requesting funding from the Financial Management Board Secretariat and the process of budgeting for the government, which is where the Housing Corp sticks to the standard of budgeting that is expected of them for the main estimates process and that they're essentially playing by the rules for the government. But the problem that I see with that is that if we look at the increases to funding over the last ten years for the GNWT, the increases to funding for the GNWT main estimates have gone up by 51 percent over the last decade whereas the increases to the Housing Corporation have gone up on average of 31 percent for the last decade. So already the GNWT has far exceeded the increases to their main estimate budgets than the NWT Housing Corporation has.
If we think about what's happened in housing for the same amount of time over the course of the last decade, the state of housing in the Northwest Territories has also declined. And so while the funding is not keeping up, the state of housing in the Northwest Territories is going down, and I kind of wanted to speak about that a little bit. And I know that this is about the budget as a whole for the NWT Housing Corporation but I think that this is a really important conversation to have in this section given that it is executive, and so I appreciate the indulgence of committee, if I may.
When I was sitting and doing some research on the weekend in regards to Housing Corporation and our assets, we have 2500 public housing units, and if we take a round number of about $600,000 per public housing unit in the Northwest Territories, that would mean that the NWT Housing Corporation has an asset or has about $1.5 billion of assets in housing, which is pretty remarkable and pretty impressive. But the problem we get to is that industry standard says that the annual payout for O and M that public housing should see is about 2 percent annually, and so that brings us to $30 million for O and M for those 2500 public housing units. And then industry standard also says that to replace units, it's also a standard of about 2 percent a year. That's also $30 million. So that means that we need $60 million just to maintain the housing stock that we currently have.
So if we look at the $11 million that we're putting into housing from the GNWT main estimates that we're looking at right now, that puts at a $49 million deficit annually. And if we forecast that forward to when our CMHC funding declines, that puts us at a deficit of approximately twothirds of a billion dollars. And I know I'm using up a lot of my time but I want to make a point here.
We're not giving housing the money that they need to actually maintain their stock that they have today. And that doesn't even include the infrastructure deficit that we're looking at already. So if we don't start putting more money into housing today, we're going to have a much bigger problem on our hands down the road. And so the 19th Assembly won't be the only Assembly talking about housing; they'll be screaming about housing years down the road. And so if we don't start putting money into it today, we're going to have a much bigger problem on our hands.
So I'd like to know, again, how come NWT Housing Corporation is not asking for more money in this budget? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I hear my colleagues from the other side, and I just you know, that we the process that we do follow, we follow it diligently and requesting more funding, I know that, you know, we've really lobbied the federal government in order for us to get additional funding here in the Northwest Territories and, you know, they request for us to to continuously go back to FMB. I would like to have president Young elaborate on the response as well too because it's quite like, I hear the colleagues from the other side. It's you know, we are running a deficit. Our infrastructure is aged. We do have housing homeownership units as well too that need to qualify and they need our attention, and there's such a huge review going on within the corporation. But funding is significant as well too that, you know, we we're strategically trying to address that. But I'll have president Young elaborate on the response as well too. Thank you.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I think with some of the analysis that we're doing and bringing forward as part of the core need conversation, you know, I think we will be elaborating on this quite a bit. The issue's not housing alone although housing, of course, because of the nature of business, it draws attention to it but the issue of infrastructure deficits is something that I've seen in my previous life with communities. It's something that I've seen with the GNWT overall. It is absolutely an issue that governments as a whole are struggling to contend with. And, you know, I think that housing historically has done what it can within the available funds that are there, and they've been very successful at securing federal funding. But I think one of the comments I heard earlier today, which I think is very true, is we can't do it alone; we do need to work with partners at all levels to be able to solve this problem. We will be part of the solution, but we do need to work with all of our other partners as well, from federal to local governments and everybody in between to be able to solve this. It's not just a funding to Housing Corporation that's going to going to solve this one. But I do hear the Member's, you know, conversation that we do need to be better positioned to explain this situation that we're in so that we can be fairly get a fair opportunity at access to any funding that does become available. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Yeah, Madam Chair, I and I absolutely agree with the president, that the Housing Corporation cannot do it alone, that it is going to take partnerships in order to be able to pull the NWT out of the housing crisis that it is currently in.
But that being said, the federal government isn't funding O and M. The federal government is putting forward funding for building new capital. We even saw that in the rapid housing initiative money that came out that was due I believe the applications were due at the end of December. That application process mandated that people needed to have access to O and M for a certain number of years in order to even access the funding for the capital to build to build the units.
So we still have to as a housing corp or sorry, the government still has to as Housing Corporation ensure that they have the dollars available for O and M for these units. And so even without their revision to the mandate or sorry, mission that Housing Corporation is working through, they already had a mandate within their organization to build, acquire, and maintain housing. And the money that they're asking for doesn't even allow them to keep up with their old mandate because they don't have the funds available to actually do the O and M and replace units, for 2500 units, which was what they already had. And I'm so thankful that we're getting more units, but we need to have the serious conversation about keeping up doing the upkeep on them. That's part of the fiscal responsibility of the Housing Corporation. It's not just to secure the funding, which is a great thing and is a very good news story, but we also have to take care of these units.
In looking, we always say from this Assembly that housing is our top priority and that housing is our number 1 priority. We even heard the Minister say that on the other side, I believe, in the last session, which I was very thankful that she said.
But the 18th Assembly passed a a budget, sorry, for capital funding for the Housing Corporation in 1920 [sic] that was $18.2 million. In 20202021, the budget passed for the Housing Corporation was 11.6. And now we're looking at a budget of 10.6. And so we keep saying that housing is our priority but the budget that we're putting forward for housing is consistently going down. So how can housing be our priority if we're not putting our dollars behind our words? And so I just I really want to stress that, and I don't really feel like I feel like we're essentially sitting on this side of the House begging the Housing Corporation to ask for more money and it's beyond me that we're actually, on an annual basis for the third time now, begging them to take money. In the first the first budget that we passed, we actually pushed more money at Housing Corporation. And so I really, really want to stress that Housing Corporation needs to ask for more money.
With my last 45 seconds, I just want to ask, I see there's a budget increase to the president's office policy and planning combined for about $300,000. Is that enough money for the NWT Housing Corporation to rework the policies that they intend to do as part of their renewal strategy? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I hear the Members from the other side and, you know what, I I recognize the decline that we actually do have and the declining of our CMHC funding, and you know, really depending on what we're able to receive from the federal government, looking at our bilateral agreements that we do have with the federal government in trying to be trying to strategize within the corporation and do things different. I'll have president Young respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And that budget increase I think we mentioned on late last week that it is for the associate deputy minister who is leading the work on the renewal and the policy change, and he is doing that work in partnership with the Council of Leaders working group and a number of other engagements with organizations such as our local housing organizations. So at this point, our plan is to do that work that way through the budget, and we don't anticipate needing any additional money to complete the policy and planning review. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any further questions from Members under the executive? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And you know, when it comes to housing, we all know how important it is. And the Minister you know, we heard the number, you know, $20 million thrown around the other day. We heard the Minister say that, you know, we're upwards of maybe $500 million we need. And I guess what I would like to hear from her is, you know, when she's through that $500 500,000 or $500 million number out there, what would that get us? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I just I want I'm going to, you know, have vicepresident Jim Martin elaborate on the response. But that was a number that was provided to me and given to me that if we were to address the whole of the housing need throughout the Northwest Territories and at that time, that's what it would have taken. But looking at the increase of of material costs, delivery, capacity within the Northwest Territories, those numbers will probably end up changing and become a lot more higher as we just as we continue to go forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, the $500 million would certainly go a long way to addressing the Housing Corporation's infrastructure deficit. We indicated that, you know, previously the projected 20year deficit was in the range of about a billion dollars, and we did mention that previously. So that would certainly keep us on pace to deal with a significant portion of that. It would also help us to deal with our deferred maintenance expenditures as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And you know, it was mentioned as well is that, you know, the Housing Corporation can't do this on their own. You know, we need private sector. We need an economy. We need Indigenous governments. We need communities. We need land. We need you know, we need hopefully cost of goods and material to decrease a bit, because right now when I look at it, I know we're probably south of a billion dollars to fix this issue, easy. And, you know, with the cost of just cost of material, when you look at building and you look at what it's cost us to build a unit, then you've got land development on it, and then if you then if you in a small community, if you go and increase, you know you know, the the housing units by a third, then you may have to again start increasing the power to to run those houses. So there's so there it just it snowballs. So I think that, you know, we can throw a few dollars here and there at it but I think what we have to do is it has to come from it has to come from the federal government, mainly, if we expect anything, it's got to come from the Indigenous group, and we have to be there to put all this together and support them.
So I guess I'd ask the question is what is the what is the executive doing to to maybe look at an approach like that, because at the end of the day it's federal dollars, or we're we're not going to count on the few tax dollars that we raise or anything like that. It has to be it has to come from the feds and we need Indigenous buyin on it as well. But at the same time, you know, like I said, we need we need an economy because I'll give you an example here of, you know, how things can turn so quick.
Hay River, we have a you know, we've got probably 60 or 70,000 70 people on the waitlist. Well, we got a 42unit apartment building going in. The highrise which I tried to get the convince this government to buy was sold to a private sector group, which has probably worked out for the best anyway. There's 122 apartments. So now, you know, we have 164 apartments that hopeful will be available within the next year to two years. And, you know, we may not be able to fill them. So what I would hope is that at the end of the day that we can encourage more people to come to Hay River and move to Hay River and locate there, and we can see more government jobs going there.
So, you know, what you know, besides working with the federal government, what are we doing to also work with the private sector to encourage this type of quick turnaround?
You know, again another example is the 24 apartment building, unit apartment building you guys bought here. Like, if things can change so fast. So and I think that, you know, we got to look at that as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member or Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation, do you want to respond?
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for those comments as well, because one of the the biggest thing for me is partnership, and like you had said and like the Members have said as well too, that the Housing Corporation cannot do this alone and also looking at the capacity throughout the Northwest Territories as well. But when I first got the portfolio, the main thing that I was really looking at was the coinvestment and for the corporation to become very strategic in trying to explain and try to demonstrate what is what is coinvestment, how do we access those federal dollars. So for us to create a position to be working directly with CMHC was really opened a huge line of communication with us that we're able to work directly with them, but also through that initiative that the those employees have been able to travel together, CMHC and the corporation, and to introduce these federal programs and applications going forward and with the funding that I did receive from the government as well to see those applications move along.
The other barrier that I've noticed is the application process is so slow when it comes to the federal government, that the criteria and what they're expecting for the Indigenous governments to provide and the timelines is not realistic for the territories, that we do have you know, we have winter road seasons, we have barging seasons, and if we're not able to put in those materials and order them this year, our projects are going to be a carryover. And just also recognizing those as well too. And looking at the private sector, that I'm open to having those conversations as well too and also introducing them and working with them to apply for the federal funding.
But not only that, you know, looking at the purchase that we ended up being very successful with here in Yellowknife, that was something that was very rare, and I just thought for the purchase of a 24unit building, that was, you know, something that I was very happy and excited that we're able to acquire. But that is what the corporation is looking for and trying to get the Indigenous groups involved as well too.
I've travelled throughout the Northwest Territories and did meet with them facetoface. Some of the Indigenous groups did have a lot of uptake. Some of them haven't. And but really stressing the need to work with that waitlist in the smaller communities, and the corporation cannot do it on its own. But those federal engagements and conversations continue. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess the reality is that we know this isn't going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen this month. It's not going to happen this year. It's probably not going to happen within the next five years. But what can happen is that we have to develop a plan, a longterm plan, to ensure that we're looking at the whole the whole of the issue and make sure that that plan is in place, because, you know, we're going to be short you know, to make this happen, we don't have we don't have the resources. We don't have the labour here. You know, we don't have the infrastructure probably to put the number of units up that we need in a short time.
So it has to be long term, or it you know, somewhat long. But it's got to be there's got to be a plan with some you know, with some measurables in there and something that we can follow.
But at the same time, we've got other issues, and those issues are you know, the M and Is are for you know, for, say, a private dwellings, like we're so short on funding for that. I know in Hay River, there are a lot of people or a few people there went without, you know, just because there was no money there. So what are we doing to ensure that that we're also addressing that? Again, that's another longterm plan but we need we need a plan. We need something that we can follow and while we're working on trying to put out fires. Because if we don't do that, all we're going to do is put out fires, we'll never get ahead, and I know that in four years from now, five years from now, they're going to still we're going to still be talking about it. You know, if it comes down to it, maybe what we have to do is to dissolve the NWT Housing Corporation, we have to turn the assets over to those who need them the most, and that's Indigenous peoples, and allow them to manage the assets regionally or in the community. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation, did you want to respond to that or just take it as a comment? Okay, go ahead.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to the Member for that, for all of those statements as well too because, you know, that's something that I'm really interested in is working with the Indigenous groups and trying to support and help them should we have any unit transfers or any interest in any of our units to be transferred over to the Indigenous governments. I'm open and I'm willing to do that. And what the uptake that we've had so far has not been as progressive as I thought it would possibly be. And also looking at, you know, supporting them as well too and looking at they're going to end up having the the operation and maintenance issues as well too, the same thing that we have for the corporation. I want to make sure that we know we are working with those Indigenous groups and they're provided adequate funding to deliver these programs.
One of the things that, looking at the local housing authorities and the board memberships as well too and reaching out to the Indigenous groups, are they wanting to pilot? Are they wanting to run those offices as well too, and really giving them the opportunity.
But the other is that working with them strategically and very closely to for them to acquire the federal funding, but what is expected of the corporation, what I've recognized is that some Indigenous groups don't want us to be in there; they don't want us to be owning their assets; they don't want us at the tables. But some Indigenous groups are most inviting and we end up in very successful partnerships. So taking on this initiative is quite it's different, and you know, and they're taking a risk as well too because I don't want to see the anybody run into acquiring any sort of deficit at the ground level as well, but we continue to work with those Indigenous groups. We continue to try to make some significant movement with them as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
