Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions from Members under the executive? Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's really easy to say you want to work with the Indigenous groups but there's no follow up. You know, there's a lot of red tape. There's lack of communication. I mean, as an ordinary MLA, I even have trouble getting answers to my emails. I've gone from July 2020, some of the things that I've brought up I still haven't got answers to or conclusions to from Members that I feel are is they're very you know, they are in dire straits. I keep on going back and forth, and then I list a whole bunch of emails that haven't been answered and sent to this department, and I don't get an answer. So working with Indigenous groups, you have to have better communication than that. And which Indigenous groups, I wonder. Are there a select few? I'd like to know that because, you know, I've been an Indigenous leader, and housing is the most important thing and that is why with the previous Assembly, we had a working relationship with the Minister at the time for the Salt River First Nation, and it was an excellent working relationship, but at least I could pick up the phone and speak to someone. I don't see that happening anymore. And I'm not taking anything away from the housing authority because right now, I think there's finally, they've got a decent board in place; they have an excellent person that's running the office there. I've never met her yet, but I hear nothing but good things. But there's always this other thing on the side, and the main thing is I mean, two houses and 12 retrofits for a community that size when I have 212 people on a waiting list, that is unbelievable and unacceptable.
And I just want to know from the Minister, how is she going to fix that? I went with her for a problem last week. I thought by Monday, if I have one positive thing I'd be happy. I still have no answer. There's going to be a followup. I never get the followup. I want to know what's going on. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, you know, I just I really want to stress, like, through the corporation, like, I got to do things fairly. If I do something in one riding, I got to make sure that I do it consistently throughout the rest of the territory. And I can't looking at the policies that we do have and if we have specifics that are there and we try to work outside of those policies, I got to make sure that what I have done is equal to what I'm doing throughout the territory. And it's just if it's not identified in there, that is a problem for us to try to making sure that we are doing things right and appropriate.
But the other thing too is working with the Indigenous groups, like I want to stress that we're not always you know, we put out those invites; we've got the Council of Leaders working group that we did establish. We have some Indigenous groups that did participate; some of them haven't. Some of them have questioned us and wanting to get involved or else just not wanting to provide input towards what it is that we're trying to strategize. But this is the table that the Indigenous groups are able to look at every single program that we do have, every single policy review, and every bit of change that we need to establish throughout the Northwest Territories, and that table is still open to every Indigenous group throughout the Northwest Territories that want to be a part and involved with that. But at that table as well too and encouraging those those federal applications going forward, that's I can say that within the time of this government, that's possibly the way to go and the continued advocation with the MP, with the federal government as well, with the territorial asks going forward and hoping to see those results. And I know that housing is quite challenging in the North, but I think as a corporation we have made significant progress. And looking at our 90unit delivery and looking at another application good forward and trying to be fair and consistent throughout the Northwest Territories while we are placing those units on the ground. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. If you could be more precise with your answers to the Member, just because of the time. Thank you. Member for Thebacha.
I know I'm very emotional on this because I feel like, you know, how could the board we have an excellent board in place now. We've got the office straightened out at housing finally in this we're in our third year. You know, and I have a lot of respect for the people that are on the board and the people that are running the office right now. But we also have to have positive positive responses from this office with some of the problems that these people faced. Most of the people that I've come that I brought forward to the Minister about different issues and couch surfing and all these things, none of them have been answered. Oh, I'll follow up, she said that in the last time when we were on on the phone there with well, I'll follow up. Well, she never followed up. If I don't follow up, I will get no answers. And I think it's you know, and the monies that were allocated by the federal government to there's a few Indigenous groups. I think there was five or six of them, how did that come about? Like, I'd like to know why they chose those five or six groups that are getting direct Indigenous housing from the federal government, because that's the way that the Indigenous groups want it anyways. And I'm happy that they got it. But what about all the rest? You know, because I remember sitting at a table with the Akaitcho Chiefs, and all of a sudden 59 million's going to the to the territorial government, and we never saw a penny of it. And, you know, so it goes on. There's a lot of history to this stuff that I'm saying. And I thought once I sat here, that if my my answers, I'd at least get a yes or no answer and be and I don't expect special treatment. Absolutely not. I'm not a type of person that expects special treatment. I just want to make sure that my members get housing, that they could stop couch surfing, they could have pride in what they have and they could start changing their lives. That's all I'm asking. And, you know, it's really unbelievable that I have to bring this to the floor, but I have to, because my members in the community of Fort Smith, expect this, and I expect it for them. Everybody has a right to have a house, to have food, and to have the necessities of life, especially the people that usually go into public housing. So with that, I want you to I want to know when I'm going to get some of the answers to all my emails. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd have to review that with my with my department as well. But the specific one that the Member possibly could be referencing is that it's out of our policy and I'd have to really take a look at that and and see what it is that we can do. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.
I don't think it's the only one that I brought forward. I brought forward many, many emails to you, and I never get answers. I remember the two ladies that decided they had to move to Fort Smith to a larger community, and they're both Indigenous, and they were from the Fort Simpson area because of health reasons, and I went back and forth here all I went back and forth every day with emails, and they finally decided to go back south where where they were before because because they never got an answer of getting a house. And one of them both of them had problems, you know, and I never got an answer. Never got an answer for anything. So I'm going to stop write to the housing department. I'll start sending stop sending emails. What for? If you're just going to say well, this and that and never get a direct answer, it's a real problem. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. If you have nothing further, I will go Member for Monfwi.
Okay, thank you. I see that the Minister last week in the House submitted the housing mandate, and I believe that's going to be the reflection on well, whatever is there, it's going to be the reflection of the housing renewal policy. So I just wanted to ask when is that housing renewal policy is going to be completed?
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have president Young respond. Thank you.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. As we noted in the strategy, the intention is to have all of the policies reviewed by the end of this government and, actually, the first working group meeting this week on public housing programs and policies is later this week, they start the review of our policies in the public housing area. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, president Young. Member for Monfwi.
Thank you. I know that policy are great concerns for many regions, okay. So how is the people's voice going to be included in this policy, in the process?
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This these policies will be reviewed at the Council of Leaders. All Indigenous groups will have these documents to have the time to develop them and to review them as well too, and, you know, just looking at the strategy that we had all information right from the ground level, right to headquarters, and right to the reports that we had established and it's it's contributing to all of those factors as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.
Is there a date when the meeting will be taking place with the Indigenous governments or Council of Leaders that she's talking about?
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The meetings with the Council of Leaders, I think we just had met in the last couple of weeks. This is an initiative that's driven by the associate deputy minister, Jamie Fulford, and he is engaging with those this is what his job and his responsibility is, the renewal and the policies and the engagement with the Indigenous groups, making sure that we make those changes within the corporation. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.
Yeah, no, yeah, I just wanted to ask about the renewal renewal policy, that when it was going to be completed, I just wanted to know the deadline. So I guess we just wait until hopefully it's going to be this year. I'm not too sure when, but because they didn't say the deadline. So I just wanted to know when. I just wanted to know that, you know, that deadline because so thank you.
Thank you, Member for Monfwi. I know that the president did say by the end of this government. So I guess that's as best answer as we're going to get. Did you have any further questions? Any further questions under the executive? Seeing none. We will oh, Member for Tu NedheWiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, I want to keep talking about housing and in our community, housing's a big issue, like I mentioned a few days ago. And I can't emphasize enough of it. I used to sit on the AFN housing committee going back to 1999, and at the national level we were about 45,000 housing short across Canada. Here in the Northwest Territories, back then, we were about 4500 homes short. And these numbers had no place but to go up. And I'm not really sure what it is today in that respect. But I wanted to touch on one thing that that was talked about here earlier is that and I mentioned this the other day too as well.
Right now the state of the affairs of the NWT Housing Corporation with the Indigenous governments in our communities are not looking good right now. The policies that are in place just don't work for us. These policies were never brought to our communities. We were never properly consulted. They said this is how it's going to be. We have the view of these policies are southern policies trying to be put on to our communities that just doesn't work.
Chief Martselos talked about her issues, and I agree with her. It's come to point where in working with Indigenous governments, it's become a trust issue now. And I'm hearing this again here today that it's still a big issue. And at the same time on Friday, I mentioned that we're also completing for same dollars. That don't make sense at all.
Maybe it's time you know, the Housing Corporation's 50 years old now. It was born in 1972. If it's not working, then we should have a review, independent review of the Housing Corporation, because they been getting money from Ottawa for a long time but yet in our community, I got tenants; I got constituent members have sewers in their bathtub.
The Housing Corporation policies says you make too much money or you don't make enough. So sooner or later, it's frustrating. We got a lot of vacant houses in the community that are sitting empty because the policies they had created through the Housing Corporation, people are in those communities, we have about Fort Resolution, we got about 20, 30 homes that are sitting empty. And that's times that by 33 communities throughout the Northwest Territories.
So if we don't get this thing right this time, then I I'm losing faith, because as a former Chief I'm deeply concerned. And so if we're going to do this and fix this right, then we should actually do a full review, work with Indigenous governments, come up with some kind of agreement as to how we're going to work this problem out, otherwise we're going to be here next year and next year and year after and going to be the same problem all over again.
So it's frustrating for me to sit here and listen to this and then when I go back to my budgets for my community, I got a little bit of money. Then I find out that there's not much there for repair programs.
So going forward, I think I'll be making an approach to the Minister of Housing Corporation that I'm going to be asking for looking at doing assessments of my homes in our communities so that I'm able to come forward next budget and say, hey look, I know exactly what I need in my community for dollars and repair dollars for our homes.
And then I read your document here saying that we're going to look at building affordable homes, and I don't see it in my budget here as well, how we're going to do that. $20 million is not enough. And I agree, it's going to be between 500 million to a million a billion dollars just to try and get these problems fixed.
And the United Nation Declaration on the rights of Indigenous people, it talks about housing too. So if we are going to come together, we should have a big forum as to how we're going to deal with this issue, otherwise we should actually do the review of the Housing Corporation to try and fix the problem.
I just I don't want no response, Madam Chair. I'm only expressing what I hear in the communities. I'm expressing as a former Chief I'm only expressing what I hear in the communities that I represent. We need to fix these problems. Not tomorrow or down the road; it's got to be today. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Tu NedheWiilideh. Thank you, Members. So now we will move on to finance and infrastructure services beginning on page 338 or no, sorry, 383, with information items on 384 and 385. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that there's $955,000 here for debt repayment. I believe can I just get an explanation of what that is? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Thank you. Vicepresident Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This represents the annual payment that we make in terms of principal and interest to CMHC for the social housing agreement debt that we're currently carrying. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to ask two questions here I think for efficiency. I see that the 2021 actuals were $355,000. Can I just get an explanation of why there is a $600,000 increase in the amount we're paying CMHC and what the total amount that we owe CMHC is? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason for the difference is is that when you look at the expenditures, the 355,000 is related to interest on that debt. The 955,000 is the cash amount that we have to set aside in our budget, our fiscal framework, to deal with both the principal and interest payments annually. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Go ahead, Mr. Martin.
Yes, and thank you, Madam Chair. And the supplementary question there was the amount that we currently have for remaining debt balance for CMHC. And that's 30 million at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just get a bit of an explanation of how this all works? We get $20 million a year from CMHC but then we pay them back a million a year because we owe them 30 million, and I get they're just different agreements. I guess that's why that's happening. But how does this number have any relation to 2038? I guess I'll start with that question. Thank you.
All right. Member for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Mr. Martin. Sorry, Minister. I called you Member. Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Back in 1997 when we entered into the social housing agreement with CMHC, the Housing Corporation inherited ownership basically of all the assets from CMHC, and associated with that was the debt. So there is a component of that debt that we pay each year which is reflected in the main estimates. And in terms of the revenue that we receive from CMHC, that is to support the ongoing O and M operations of the social housing stock. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. My other question is does the Housing Corporation have any other debt, or do we take on debt? Is that something that I'll start there. Thank you.
