Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have president Young respond. Thank you.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. If I could, I'll defer that to vicepresident Martin.
Thank you. Vicepresident Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Aside from our regular accounts payables and environmental liabilities as well as retirement and postemployment leave type benefits that are accrued each year, it is only the loans and mortgages payable to CMHC that we have for debt. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess I want to get into a bit of a debt debate. Can I you know, we had spoke to the Power Corp today. They sure have a lot of debt. They like to take on debt to build all their infrastructure, and they have, you know, a relatively comparable revenue stream to the Housing Corp. I'm just curious why, you know, this crown corporation, which has $100 million a year in revenue, does not go leverage that and get a bunch of financing. I'm kind of curious, is there is that something we shouldn't do, or the reasoning for that? I just think of the way the private sector mortgages all of their housing assets. You know, it's quite common to go out and maximize all of your debt you can when you own housing. Is that something the Housing Corp considered, or is that just a terrible idea? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond.
Mr. Martin.
Madam Chair. The Housing Corporation, in order to take on debt, would have to seek the approval of the FMB, the Financial Management Board, recognizing that any debt that the Housing Corporation takes on would be included in the overall debt limit for the government calculations. So that's an important consideration in that process.
And another consideration that we take into account as well, in terms of when it comes to debt, is the interest associated with that debt, and that would also generate additional O and M expenditures for the corporation that would have to be addressed annually as well within our current fiscal framework. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I you know, to one extent, I wish that the Power Corp and the GNWT had the had the debt that the Housing Corp had, but I just it seems a little odd that the Housing Corp seems to be playing a different completely different game than everyone else when it comes to debt.
I'm curious, you know, if we, for example, were to look at Yellowknife, where we are spending a lot of money on leasing and we could go to a bank and borrow the money to build public housing, I think it's been made quite clear multiple times we don't actually have the capital on hand to build public housing. But other than approval from the FMB, is there any reason to not simply go and borrow money to build public housing, especially when we're already paying rent on it? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Thank you. Vicepresident Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, so as was noted, the Housing Corporation certainly does lease units in addition to its own units to support its public housing program operations. We have looked at cases in the past on a case by case, and it has been shown in the past that ownership was, in fact, cheaper in these particular case studies that we looked at versus leasing. So the Housing Corp going forward will continue to look at these opportunities on a casebycase basis. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, vicepresident Martin. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I I think I'll probably ask some more questions about the potential of the Housing Corp taking out mortgages. I'll also note that they're different than any other government debt because if we build a building and a bank will mortgage it and we decide we don't want it, we could sell it. You know, the bank's not going to give us a mortgage if the asset we build is not worth something. It seems like a different category of debt that we should be leveraging, in my mind.
But I wanted to get one question in about 2038. Can I just get an update on my understanding is that in 2038, we will stop having the $20 million a year from the Housing Corp, and it is slowly declining up until then but there's an interim agreement that is preventing it from declining. Can I just get a bit of an update on what's going on with 2038? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have president Young respond. Thank you.
Thank you. President Young.
Madam Chair, and yes, currently the agreement with CMHC is in play for 2038, that operations and maintenance funding will be decreased on a sliding scale down to the point of not receiving any O and M funding effective 2038.
We currently have a bilateral agreement in place with CMHC which they allowed us to use some of that funding to mitigate the reduction of the O and M funding, and so we were able to from now until I believe it's 2028, Mr. Martin can correct me if I'm wrong, have balanced off those declining funds through the bilateral agreement, and this of course is one of our number 1 issues as part of our conversation with our federal colleagues on addressing that longterm situation. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, President Young. Did you want Mr. Martin to no? Okay. All right. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm going to start off by turning the page. And so we've got about $4.2 million in homelessness initiatives across the NWT. I'm wondering if the Housing Corporation has a number of people that that serves? That might be too detailed for right now but if it is, I'm willing to wait for the answer as well. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have that amount of detail at the tip of my fingers right now, but we do have several different programmings as well. The one that comes to my head immediately is our Northern Pathways as well too that deals with homelessness and troubled clients in the smaller communities. We do work in conjunction with health and social services as well too providing the asset and health and social services providing the programming. So I don't have those numbers of how many people we serve throughout the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Would you be able to provide those to us?
Thank you. Yes, I will. Thanks.
Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And I'll narrow it down, and the Minister might not have the question or the answer, and I will admit I didn't provide the questions to her in advance and I understand that this is quite detailed.
The one that I'm really after is the amount of people served by the emergency shelters funding number of 2.997, and I'm wondering if that is given it's more specific of a number request, if that's one that the Minister has?
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd have to get back to the Member because like I said that when we're addressing homelessness, I do work with my colleague for health and social services as well too. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And I think without even seeing the number, that we can all probably agree that housing people on an emergency basis is generally far more expensive per person than it is to keep people housed, which is what I'm looking the question I'm looking to answer there with that number.
And so I want to just kind of put in a plug here for the work that is being done by the Housing Corporation as far as renewing their mission, vision, values, and the policies that go with that, and what I'm hoping that we see is a system that values keeping people housed over evictions and finding solutions. And I think that that will we will see the repercussions of that in the bottom line of the GNWT across departments. And so I appreciate the work that the Housing Corporation is doing on that one.
Back in 2018, the Housing Corporation committed to a homelessness strategy for the GNWT as a wholeofgovernment approach, and I'm wondering if the Minister can let us know when that strategy will be done and presented to the Standing Committee on Social Development. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have president Young respond. Thank you.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Our hope had been to do this one in March as well. I've not had a chance to update the Minister. I do think it's going to take a little bit longer now just to piece all of the final pieces together, and we'll be able to provide a more detailed update in a few weeks, and we can have the Minister follow up with committee after that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, president Young. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And I understand that president Young has, you know, only recently come in to the Housing Corporation. So I know that she has adopted a lot of the work that was already being done, but I just wanted to point out or ask of the Minister that it is the expectation that this is an allofgovernment approach and that the strategy will include participation of other departments. So can you Minister confirm that other departments participated on this and that it is an allofgovernment approach? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have president Young elaborate on the process because it does have to be submitted to committee as well too and to Cabinet and for their comment as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you.
Wasn't sure if I said that.
President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And yes, I can confirm I've been working quite closely with my colleagues at health and social services, ECE, justice, and others working on this so that it will be an allofgovernment approach coming back. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know that health and social services is also currently working on a supportive living review, and I just wanted to clarify, do the two documents speak to one another and work in conjunction together so that they are are collaborative, I guess, in that sense?
