Thank you. So the main estimates say these are the highlights, and I guess it wasn't determined that this was a highlight of the budget. But I've stated, I don't know how many times now, that there was a reduction to the budget of OROGO, and I apologize for not stating that in the in my opening remarks. But I've stated it numerous times now. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks. Let's stop dancing around here. Look, clearly, there's a reduction made in this activity area which is supposed to be arm's length from Department of Justice, probably even arm's length from our government to some extent. And I just can't figure out where the money that was cut here actually goes, whether it just stays within the department and is treated as sort of money within the department and is picked up somewhere else and used. I don't think that that's a fair representation of what should be an independent regulator. That's not what I think is a fair presentation of the finances of this government. And if this is an independent regulator and cuts are made to it, the money just doesn't all of a sudden disappear and show up somewhere else within the Department of Justice. That's wrong. If cuts are made, they should go back to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. And if Justice needs money for other functions or other activities, they should go to the FMB and apply for that money and get it. The kind of presentation that we're getting here doesn't explain this very well. But I think what it does show is that this government does not respect an independent regulator in the presentation of the budget for the what should be an independent regulator. And that's all I'm going to say about this.
I've raised this before, and I will raise it again, that when reductions appear in a budget, they should be actually labelled as reductions, and I just don't think that the kind of presentation we've got in the main estimates does that. And I encourage the Minister of Finance to look at this and make sure that it's a fair presentation the public can understand, that we as Regular MLAs understand, and that an independent regulator is treated as an independent regulator, not an arm within a particular department. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member or Minister of Justice.
Thank you. So every previous year when the OROGO budget would lapse, that money was then used by the Department of Justice to fund other things. This year, the budget was cut, and what the Member said should happen is exactly what happened. So his complaints really should be focused on the previous years when what he doesn't want to happen was happening. This year, what he wanted to happen is exactly what happened. So I think I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this. I think I'm really confused as to what the issue is, because we seem to be saying that the same thing is happening but perhaps it's philosophical differences about accounting. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. While I may disagree with my colleague about the interest in oil and gas in the region, I share his concerns with the cutting of the funding to this department or to this regulator.
While I don't want to sit here and split hairs on where the money went, where my concern lies is that with the cutting of two positions, one at least having been technical, I'm concerned that the review did not necessarily incorporate the opinion of technical people. And one of the reasons that I ran was because I felt there was an absence of scientific knowledge in decisionmaking in this government. And so when I look at this that it's being told to me the reason for this cut is that money continues to lapse yearly, that's an accounting reason to remove this money; that is not a scientificbased reason to take this money away. And if we are going to have a well, which my colleague from Nunakput who's not here today would very much have a conversation about his interest in oil and gas going forward, I find this to be actually quite appalling that we've reduced a regulator and taking that money and using it elsewhere in the government.
I also look and note that there's a cut to contract service by about half the funding. So that would probably be safety and technical training for the employee that was then removed from his position. So therefore their position.
So, therefore, I really have concern here that when it comes time for these projects that we are talking about happening that have very crucial to the Beaufort Delta, that we're going to be having a regulator with no technical experience sitting there any further. Plus, you're overloading the technical person that's still left there, or the few technical people.
I'm not sure that I have much of a question in that for the Minister, just some more colleagues. I guess my question is how much who input on this review? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Perhaps Mr. Bancroft can speak to some of the technical aspects of the review. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Bancroft.
Madam Chair, yes, of course, there was multiple stakeholders' point of views taken into account during this throughout this review. Number 1 being the executive director of OROGO, who was fully supportive of this review. Number 2 being stakeholders within government who were considered experts in the oil and gas industry. And the consultants who were also independent took their expert knowledge and the industry outlook to determine the workload required and the budget required. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
So we often hear that there's no crystal ball in this Chamber. So, you know, to talk to government people about where they think things are going and deciding to cut, again, a regulator, I have concern with that.
The executive director is not a technical person who has not been in that role for very long is my understanding. Where are the technical people within the department of this or this regulator? Were they consulted about whether they felt their jobs were necessary? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I can't I don't have anything to add to what Mr. Bancroft said. Thank you.
Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, I'll rephrase. Are one of the stakeholders that the government consulted within the government, were they the employees within OROGO? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. From what I understand, the executive director was the one who was consulted. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Is the director executive director a technical person; does that person have a scientific background to understand this? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. So there was a budget that was created for this this regulator. The budget was created out of thin air with no concept of how much work would actually be needed and what position would be required. There was a review undertaken to look at what work has been done, what work will need to happen going forward, and a decision was made based on that review. If there is a need in the future for additional money for this, then I personally don't think that we have much of a say because as a regulator, they need they have a job to do, and we would fund them according to the job they need to do. According to the job they need to do now, this is the funding that is required according to a third party review. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
So will the Minister, then, commit that when they come back needing more money as projects ramp up in the Beaufort Delta that he'll find that money within the Department of Justice and not come back and take it from our social programs or housing? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. So I don't want to open up a can of worms about where money comes from for regulators, but wherever it comes from it's the coffers of the GNWT is where it comes from. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I would like to request that the Minister work with his colleague in ITI and provide us with a forecast of what is happening in the area of oil and gas such that we can evaluate properly before we get to the point where we need more money and more resources and can't hire those people for the Northwest Territories, that we have some idea of where this is going so we're not playing catchup and reaction yet again. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So I'm pretty hands off with this regulator, because it is arm's length. I think ITI probably would have that information. So I can talk to the Minister to see what's going on but I don't I don't get too deep into the business of oil and gas. That is the Minister of ITI. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Yeah, I have concern with that answer as well, just in the sense of like, well, then if you have nothing to do with it, why is it in your department? I get that it's Justice. Then I would say perhaps it fits better with the Minister of ITI but then I know we would have everybody saying there's a conflict there as the Minister responsible for Industry. So I will just take that as I'm going to continue to harass the Minister about this department or this regulator and hope that, you know, we will see business ramping up in the Beaufort Delta and therefore we will have need for regulators of oil and gas. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Did you have follow up, Member or Minister of Justice?
Thank you. And this did used to be with Minister of ITI in the previous Assembly, and it came to Justice so that the Minister would have no skin in the game essentially.
But I have started the conversation with my Cabinet colleagues about, you know, these arm's length regulators and how we structure them and what departments they sit in because it is rather ad hoc, so. Maybe somewhere down the line, we can figure this out and have a unified approach. Thank you.
Thank you. Are there any further questions to the Office of the Regulator of the Oil and Gas Operations?
Seeing none. Justice, office of the regulator of oil and gas operation, operations expenditure summary, 20222023 Main Estimates, $1,230,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. We will now go to page 296, justice policing service. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the Minister just enlighten me a little about how our police contract works with requests from the RCMP for more staff? We are padding another $2 million to the policing budget. It's been on a bit of an upward trend. As the Minister noted, we've added officers to another community number of communities. I'm just does the Minister have to agree to these? Is there some sort of arbitration when the RCMP say they need more resources? I'm just kind of curious how we negotiate with the RCMP the appropriate level of resourcing. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, there is a significant amount of collaboration between the Department of Justice and the RCMP before we see a final product and before it makes it to the Assembly. Mr. Bancroft can provide some detail on that. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Bancroft.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So the analysis that's generally undertaken is called a GDPRM, which is a general duty policing resource model review. It's initiated from the RCMP side, but within collaboration with the Department of Justice, we meet semiannually on business cases, stressors in under the TPSA as far as policing operations go throughout the territory. We look at things like, you know, key indicators like overtime costs, operational readiness, occurrences, instances. They are all driving forces towards determining how many police members are required in the community. We take all that information, we track it, as well as the RCMP tracks it, to come with the true need of a detachment, and that's how we determine the requirement for additional officers. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the there's a number here, other adjustments including $1.8 million, mainly for collective agreement increases. Can the Minister just provide how much the RCMP's collective agreement increases were specifically?
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. The RCMP's collective agreement is not reflected in this budget. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I believe I will be seeing that in a SUP.
Can the Minister provide I know there's quite a bit of money coming forward from the RCMP collective agreement, and the big question is the retroactive number. I know this is conversation happening all across Canada. Does the Minister have any update on when and how much we are expecting to see retroactively for the collective agreement?
Minister of Justice.
