No, I'm good. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any further questions under community justice? Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I think this is where the integrated case management program is found, but there's no line item; there's no nothing. It's hard to know what expenditures there are on the program. Can I get some detail about that and whether the budget is increasing, decreasing? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. So we have one associated position, and that position helps coordinate with other departments. But the ISD program or ISD, integrated service delivery, is more than just a position or a program; it's an approach that not just justice is implementing but we are trying to implement across the GNWT. For more information, I can hand it over to the deputy minister. Thank you.
Thank you. Deputy minister Doolittle.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. The integrated case management program has a 20222023 annual operating budget of $830,000, the majority of which is dedicated to salaries, including four pathfinder positions and one intern pathfinder position.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks. And any changes then from last year? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. Changes from last year? I'll hand it to the deputy minister. Thanks.
Thank you. Deputy minister Doolittle.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. There were collective agreement increases. That's it. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks for that, Madam Chair. And thanks to the Minister and his staff. Can we get that split out somehow in next year's main estimates? Like, we're spending $6 million on community justice and it's like two lines in the program detail. Community justice is a big lump sum of $5.6 million. Protection against family violence is 500 come on. Can we get some more program detail, a better breakdown next year? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. And I used to express the same frustration about $165 million one line in ECE's budget so I understand where the Member's coming from. I'll work with the department and with Finance but there could be rules related to how this is organized that are, you know, beyond my ability to influence. But we can provide committee with a breakdown, a more detailed breakdown. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
No, thanks, I appreciate that commitment from the Minister. And I think that subject's going to come up in one of the other activities that we're going to get to.
But on integrated case management, I understand that this is a program that's largely centered in Yellowknife. And I think a while back, we did have a return on social investment study that was done that was very complimentary of the program and the assistance that it offers to the clients, very successful.
Are there any plans to expand this program outside of Yellowknife, perhaps into some of the regional centres? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. There are no plans to expand the program as is. It is a Yellowknife program right now, and it is adapting itself to Yellowknife and I don't think it's a program that you can just transplant into a different community, even if it's a regional centre. But that being said, the goal is to figure out how we can offer more integrated services in other communities as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I would hope that the Minister would be a little more flexible there. Look, you can't transplant what is being done here to regional centres but there's lots of lessons learned, and so I guess the Minister's answer is that integrated service delivery's going to subsume what's happening with integrated case management and somehow that's going to roll out across the Northwest Territories? Is that what I'm hearing the Minister say? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
That's the dream, that we find ways of delivering services in Yellowknife and in outside of Yellowknife in a way that is meeting people's needs. This program, ICM, is meeting the needs of a small group of people in Yellowknife, and it's very tailored to their needs in this community. We need an approach that's going to work everywhere. You know, these oneoff programs are great but they don't you know, ICM is not going to transform how we deliver services. ISD is going to deliver transform how we deliver services. And so that's the work that we have to do. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm not going to hold my breath forever but, yeah, I look forward to some results. Thank you. And that's all I've got, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any further questions under community justice? Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The community justice committees and projects, when you look at the active positions, it says two in headquarters and 12 in North Slave and yet it's covering I'm sure this is also covering South Slave. Very confusing the way it's brought forward here.
I think there is a community justice committee in Fort Smith, and I want to say that the people that run the community justice committee in Fort Smith is very productive, and I think that the way things are put forward by Justice is not very clear. Clarity must be very it must be when we're going to vote on this budget, I think clarity is very important, and I want to see if the Minister agrees with that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of ECE.
Thank you. Similar to comments I made earlier, yes, I've been saying that for years. Unfortunately, this is an accounting document for the most part and that's why we're here, just to parse out this information and provide additional information to committee as requested. You know, I wish this document was ten times its size and we could have information about all of the programs. But the fact is that I have two binders here that together are probably two feet high, and that's only my two departments. So I'm happy to provide information as I can but what is in the main estimates is what's there. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.
The Minister also says integrated services cannot be put into regional centres or communities, and that is very disturbing because if that's the case, then everything is just for one place. I'm considering voting against this budget because I think it's high time that the Members, the Ordinary Members from small communities and regional centres have got to take a stand. I think very clearly that, you know, we're always doing this and it's always from the same place, and I don't take anything from the people of the capitol, but I think that small communities and regional centres have got to be looked after also and I wonder if the Minister agrees with that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. And just to correct the record, I never said integrated services cannot be put into communities outside of Yellowknife. I said integrated services can be put into communities outside of Yellowknife, and that's exactly what we're working on.
The integrated case management program is a Yellowknifebased program designed for Yellowknife. And the idea of case management is you have a clientele or an integrated service delivery is you have a clientele, and you cater to them what are their needs? And so I can't put a program to cater to the needs of the people in Yellowknife into Hay River. That wouldn't work. We would need something catered to cater to the people in Hay River. So how do we do that? We don't take a Yellowknife program and transplant it. We figure out first of all, we make sure that the program we have now is working in Yellowknife, and we learn from it. And we are learning from it. But there's still a ways to go. We're trying to integrate the entire GNWT system of social services that are provided, and it's difficult, and there is a lot to a long ways still to go. This program is great. There's still a lot of work to be done. And so we need to figure that out. At the same time, how do we roll this out elsewhere. So yes, we need to have integrated service delivery in all communities. This ICM program as it is, I don't see it rolling out outside of Yellowknife. That doesn't mean something else doesn't happen, though. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So the community justice committees and projects, could you give us the allocation by community, please. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. So the community justice committees:
The hamlet of Aklavik receives $53,000.
Inuvik Community Justice Committee receives $129,500.
Fort McPherson receives $82,000.
Paulatuk receives $45,000.
Tsiigehtchic $41,500.
Tuk $56,000.
Ulukhaktok $56,000.
Colville Lake $41,500.
Deline $75,000.
Norman Wells $56,000.
Tulita $49,000.
Fort Smith $71,000.
Fort Providence $53,000.
Fort Resolution $49,000.
Hay River $78,500.
Katl'odeeche First Nation $45,000.
Kakisa $41,500.
Enterprise $20,000.
Fort Simpson $63,000.
Wrigley $41,000
Fort Liard $49,000.
Somba K'e $41,000.
Behchoko $78,000.
Gameti $40,000.
Wekweeti $40,000.
Whati $45,000.
Lutselk'e $45,000.
Yellowknife $129,000.
DettahN'dilo $45,000.
Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Thebacha.
Madam Chair, this is a really important line for our Indigenous people of the North. It keeps them from getting there's alternative it's alternative justice, and it keeps them out of getting a criminal record. This is a really important line in the overall file on justice. And with those numbers, it's very little. So the alternative to that for Indigenous people is that they plead guilty and they go to they have to be incarcerated. To me, that is the wrong approach, that we should be making sure that our communities are funded properly so that our Indigenous people and people who get into problems the first time are there's a different alternative. And I look forward to change in the future on that, and I hope that the Minister thinks of change, of thinking out of the box, in keeping our so that our Indigenous and others don't get a criminal record and don't use the other alternative of having to be incarcerated by the RCMP and the justice system. Do you agree with that, Minister? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. Yes, that's my goal. Thank you.
Thank you. All right, any further questions under community justice?
All right, so please turn to page 279, Justice, community justice, operations expenditure summary, 20222023 Main Estimates, $6,168,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. We will now move on to corrections, beginning on page 283 with information items on 284 and 285. Questions from Members on corrections? Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're spending 30 about $40 million on corrections here under can I just get an explanation of what the difference between community corrections is and corrections administration and facilities? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. So we have probation services. We have the correctional facilities. And we have corrections administration. So for some description of those, I can ask Mr. Bancroft. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Bancroft.
