Debates of March 31, 2022 (day 111)

Thank you. Ms. Semmler.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Are you able to hear me? Okay, thank you.

First of all, yesterday I had made comments to the opening or to general comments, and my comments didn't show up for the record. So what I wanted to say first was that I want to thank every person that spent the time providing the information to our committee for this report. It was a difficult some of the information that we received was very difficult. We were able to hear from families affected. We were able hear from youth in care. We heard back from many different other organizations. And so I'm very grateful for all the information.

I think as this committee, when we were looking at to review this Child and Family Services Act, we wanted to focus on prevention. And the reason we wanted to focus on prevention was because of this first recommendation.

And I want to highlight that this is a crisis. When 98 percent of the children in the child and family services in the Northwest Territories are Indigenous, this is a crisis. If this was the other way around and they were nonIndigenous, this would definitely be a crisis and the whole of government would be trying to figure it out how this happened. But because it's just generational, generational, it went from residential school to Sixties Scoop, you know, and now we got the child and family services, it's just a continuation. This is a crisis. And I am support of this motion.

Ms. Semmler, can you just hold.

Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I take offence to this one. I think that this one goes against the rules of debate, 3.2(3)(i). The comment that the Member stated that the children are Indigenous and therefore it's not as important but if they were Caucasian that it would be an allofgovernment response implies faults or hidden motives to another Member; in fact, it implies that the whole of Cabinet would make this a priority and I think that's disrespectful to all of us. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Premier. Committee, we'll just take five minutes.

SHORT RECESS

Okay, I'll call the committee back to order.

On the issue of the Point of Order raised by the Premier based on Rule 3.2(3)(i) imputes false motives against another Member, I feel comments did cross the line and ask the Member to apologize and withdraw the comments. I recognize the fact that it is a very passionate subject that we're discussing but caution and urge careful language be used. Ms. Semmler.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize for my comments, and I you know, I take back if the Premier or whoever raised the Point of Order, because I can't hear it on this side. So if they would have let me can finish my statement, maybe they would have understood what I was leading to. And I was never making it a point that it was this government. This is an ongoing historical problem that we need to raise.

It's the same fight that many Indigenous families have fought for missing and murdered Indigenous women, that it was never it was never recognized as a crisis. And until we start to recognize that it's a crisis and the examples were used was if it was a nonIndigenous woman, just like you seen in the media all the time, that a nonIndigenous woman goes missing and it's broadcasted everywhere throughout the media. So if that's what this government thinks that I was leading to then, you know, I apologize for that but that's not my intentions, never was.

Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Semmler. Do you want to continue on talking to the motion?

You know, like I said, this is a crisis. There are 98 percent of children in care. They are Indigenous. We need a wholeofgovernment approach to change this. This hasn't changed since residential school. Do I have to speak to the recommendations from the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Inquiry? Do I have to repeat what the TRC says? This is the crisis. This is an ongoing crisis. And so yes, I support this motion. And I think everyone in this House should support this motion. Not blaming anyone in this House that they created this. It's just a crisis and we need to come together as a government with Indigenous governments and find a way to resolve this. That is where I was getting to. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Semmler. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to say that I support my colleague, and I know that it's a difficult conversation for her.

I also support this motion and the use of the word "crisis" and the need to develop the wholeofgovernment approach. It was my to my absolute shock, as I started this work, that it is 90 percent Indigenous children and youth that are in care and to me that is just reprehensible and disgusting. So I will be voting for this, and I hope as well that my colleagues do too. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If all the children in care were white, there would be a wholeofgovernment approach. It is absolutely insane to think that is not the case. That is how systemic racism works. We know that. This government has repeatedly acknowledged systemic racism.

Madam Premier.

Mr. Chair, Point of Order on 3.2(3)(i) imputes false or hidden motives to another Member.

I do not accept, Mr. Chair, that if all the children in care were Caucasian that this government would have a different tactic. This government, its Cabinet, this whole of this government is the majority of Cabinet are Indigenous. And at no time have we said that we shall punish children because they are Indigenous, that we do not care about our children because they are Indigenous, that we give less services because they are Indigenous.

I do not believe in my heart that we would do any different for our children in care if they were all Caucasian. I believe, Mr. Chair, that we are doing the best we can to provide services. And I believe that the Minister responsible is trying to work with Indigenous governments, has supported the federal government move to actually have the children the Indigenous governments take over the care of their children, which is the right thing to do. So I take offence that any Member that says that this would be different from our government if these children were Caucasian is totally offensive, and I do not accept that from any Member. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Premier. Okay, I just ruled on that Point of Order. And again, I would ask the Member to apologize and withdraw those comments. And again, I recognize that it is a very passionate subject and I caution everyone to, you know, to be careful in the language they're using and, you know, try and keep things factual. Thank you. Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The test is whether a motive is imputed to Cabinet. I don't believe I was imputing any motive. I was stating a fact about systemic racism. I will not withdraw the comments, and I will not apologize.

We will have a fiveminute recess.

SHORT RECESS

I'll call the committee back to order. Member for Yellowknife North, I have ruled that your comments were out of order. I will ask you again to apologize.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. As I stated, I don't I was not imputing any motive. I believe I was stating a fact. I will not apologize, and I will not withdraw my comments.

Member for Yellowknife North, if you refuse to apologize, pursuant to Rule 3.4(4) I will suspend the proceedings and report to the Speaker who may rule as if it happened in the Assembly. Will you apologize?

No, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Members, pursuant to Rule 3.4(4), I will suspend proceedings and report to the Speaker. Thank you.

SHORT RECESS

May I please have the report of Committee of the Whole. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Committee Report 2619(2).

During committee's consideration, the Member for Range Lake rose on a Point of Order pursuant to 3.2(3)(i), stating that the Member for Yellowknife North was imputing false or hidden motives to a Member by stating that, and I quote, "If all these children in care were white, there would be a wholeofgovernment approach. It is completely insane to think that this is not the case. This is how systemic racism works. We know that. This government has repeatedly acknowledged systematic racism." End of quote.

Prior to this exchange, I had ruled on a Point of Order raised by the Member for by the Member for Range Lake against the Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes as similar comments were out of order and recognized while Members are passionate about this issue, we must remain respectful.

I advised the Member for Yellowknife North that his comments were out of order and asked him to apologize. The Member refused.

I asked the Member a second time and he refused; in effect, challenging the chair.

Pursuant to Rule 3.4(4), I have suspended proceedings and am reporting these circumstances to the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, I ask that you rule on this matter so that Committee of the Whole can resume its consideration of Committee Report 2619(2). Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Colleagues, this has been a long session and long day. The topic you're debating now is a sensitive one. It is also very important. Before I rule on this matter, I will allow some debate.

Madam Premier, as you raised the Point of Order, I'll go to you first. Madam Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recognize also it has been a long day. I was offended when the comment came that if these children were Caucasian that it would be different, we would have given an allofgovernment approach to it. The majority of our Cabinet are Indigenous. The majority of the Members are Indigenous. And so I took offence to it, Mr. Chair. Then when the second Member stated it again, it was like a slap in the face and so I rose again, Mr. Chair. But recognizing it's been a long day and we have important business to do, I did want withdraw the statement but it was too late because it was already done. My understanding it was already ruled on.

I guess I have no more to say, Mr. Speaker, other than to say that this government cares. It cares about small communities. It cares about making sure the money. And it cares about Indigenous children. And I still stand by that I do care, and all of this Cabinet cares about Indigenous people and small communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That's all I have to say.

Thank you, Madam Premier. Do others wish to speak to the Point of Order? Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The test is not whether anyone was offended. We are allowed, and in fact encouraged, to say things that will offend people in this House. That is healthy debate. The test is whether it was imputing motive. And I don't believe the statement that if the children in care were white and not Indigenous there would be a wholeofgovernment approach imputes any motive. In fact, I don't believe the motives of my Cabinet colleagues or any of the people in this House are remotely, you know, racist or prejudice towards Indigenous children in care. I know they deeply care. But that is not how systemic racism works. Systemic racism and systems that clearly in our territory arise out of as the Member from Inuvik Twin Lakes stated, arise out of residential schools, arise out of the Sixties Scoop carry on and that I believe it is a simple fact that if all of the children in care were white, there would be a wholeofgovernment approach.

We are talking about child and family services. We are talking about a very sensitive subject. And Mr. Speaker, we need to be able to talk about systemic racism and stay statement say statements like that. I am very concerned if you make this ruling, you hamper you censor future debate in this House about a very key subject. And you take many people in this House who are then afraid about what they are going to be able to say in the realm of child and family services. We need to be able to have frank debate in this House. It is not a matter of offending anyone on either side of the aisle, Mr. Speaker.

I will not apologize. I think apologizing, withdrawing that statement, is bad for democracy and bad for the very important conversation that we need to have. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Do other Members wish to speak to the Point of Order? Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too just want to you know, I apologized because the order was ruled in Committee of the Whole so I could continue my statement. And like my colleague said, this is a sensitive subject. We heard stories, and I've lived in the Northwest Territories my whole life and seen this. And, you know, and as as an Indigenous woman, you know, you you just this is my job here. My job here was to be elected to raise the issues of my constituents. And if the, you know, other side doesn't want to hear it then that's their problem. It's not a Point of Order. And I hear what the Premier says. After this is all over and done with, that doesn't make it okay. It's the truth. And I'm not pointing blame at any one of the Cabinet Members. Never was, and neither is my colleague. So I feel that, you know, this is something that maybe the Premier needs to apologize back to us because we are having frank discussions. And if she does believe that this is an issue of systemic racism and we've had, like I said, the TRC, the MMIWG reports that all have discussed this topic, that we all agree with this recommendation. Let's be that change for the Northwest Territories and actually agree together on one recommendation. Let's work together for the betterment for these kids. Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. Do other Members wish to speak to the Point of Order? Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Government of the Northwest Territories has a moral and ethical obligation to root out racism in our institutions. This obligation extends beyond the overt, visible, and obvious acts of hate and violence that we can easily see and condemn. It includes the subtle hidden systemic racism that persists in legislation, policies and practices.

Systemic racism is real. It exists in the Northwest Territories and it exists in our government. Some of our institutions, policies, and practices continue to disadvantage or discriminate against black, Indigenous, and people of colour. We continue to see examples of people facing discrimination based on their national origin, race, religion, ethnicity, and culture. It is an uncomfortable truth but one that we must fearlessly acknowledge and confront if we want to change.

Mr. Speaker, I hope I don't get called on a Point of Order for those words but I can't take credit for them because they are those of the Premier. They were read into this House on March 3rd, 2021 about systemic racism, and this motion is about systemic racism.

I am shaking right now in the sense that I am very passionate about this, and I have a lot of sadness right now because I can see that my colleague from Inuvik Twin Lakes is hurt. So I believe the only apology that is owed in this House is one from the Premier to this side. Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Does any other Members wish to speak to the Point of Order? Member for Frame Lake.

Merci, Monsieur le President. I don't really want to say too much but, you know, I accept that systemic racism exists, and I think we all have a duty to discuss it and acknowledge its existence and address it. And I honestly believe that my colleagues on the other side feel the same way. So it's how we do that, Mr. Speaker, that that's going to make the difference. And that's, I think, the kind of legacy that we all collectively want to leave.

But somehow this debate and discussion after a long day of some criticism about the budget, budgetmaking process, somehow discussion has been misinterpreted, miscommunicated as criticism of Cabinet. And that's not what this is about. So I hope that my colleagues on the other side can find a way that we can work together and move forward to finish the business that we have to do today but also really address this issue of systemic racism. It's not criticism of Cabinet. We have to acknowledge its existence and work together to eliminate it. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Do other Members wish to speak to the Point of Order? Member for Monfwi.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do support this motion as well but I do not agree with the Point of Order made by the Premier.

Yes, I agree with my colleague as well, because we have to acknowledge that systemic racism does exist, and I am a woman. I am an Indigenous woman, and I feel it. I feel every day. It's not just me. Look at those little girls, little boys. They feel it every day. So we cannot deny and or act like there is no racism.

And I do accept so what is wrong with saying what my colleague said from Twin Lakes? There's nothing wrong with it. And she is correct in what she said. And child and family service is a sensitive issue for a lot of us. And we cannot deny the fact that there are 98 percent of Indigenous kids in care in the NWT, and that is a crisis.

And also the correctional system in the NWT is overpopulated by Indigenous people. Overall the Canadian correctional system is also overpopulated by the Indigenous people. And according to the Canadian statistics, there are not too many of us, the Indigenous people, and this is the truth. Auditor General also acknowledged that report as well and said that too many of the Indigenous people are in care or are in the child welfare system and are in the correctional system.

So we have to acknowledge there is, indeed, systemic racism exists in Canada or anywhere else in the world. So I do support I'm sorry, I do support this motion, and I do support my colleagues when they did make the statement. But I do not support the Point of Order the Premier made.

And I can tell you that the only time that child and family services get involved is when the child is apprehended. And we need to do more. This government needs to do more, spend more on mental health and wellness and try to keep the family together. That's the only way that it's going to work. And we all know why. The main reason why there are more aboriginal kids in care is due to neglect because of drugs and alcohol issues abuse and the social socioeconomic, poverty, and housing. There's no housing. And in the Indigenous community, there's a high rate of unemployment. That is the truth. We need to acknowledge that there is a systemic racism in the Northwest Territories and within the system.

So that's all I have to say, and I do not agree with the Point of Order made by the by the Premier. And I do support my colleagues. Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Do other Members wish to speak to the Point of Order? Honourable Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is no doubt that systemic racism exists. I've never said it hasn't existed. And I do think we have an obligation to fight against systemic racism.

So, Mr. Speaker, on hearing from the other Members, perhaps I misinterpreted. I was under the impression that when it was said allofgovernment approach would be different if they were Caucasian, I took that to say that this that this Cabinet would be would treat Caucasian children different than we would Indigenous children. But if that was not the intent of the Member and that it was talking about systemic racism and not attacking this Cabinet, then I would respectfully if the opportunity exists, I would like to withdraw my Point of Order if the Speaker allows. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Honourable Premier. I will accept your withdrawal. But I caution all Members to choose your words carefully, especially with such a sensitive topic. And Ministers, choose your Points of Order carefully. This is a place for the debate the debate of important issues. In this case, a very sensitive one. The people we represent expect us to deal with these tough issues and speak freely in this place.

Mr. Johnson. First of all, I'll call the meeting back to order. And now you can continue.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I hope that the government does declare the situation of overrepresentation of Indigenous children a crisis. And I support the motion. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions? Discussion? Ms. Martselos.

Mr. Chair, you know, I've had I've been in leadership for 14 years, and I when I voted against the budget, I know this is it has to do with this too, I voted because I felt I had to do the right thing for my community. I think today we have to have cooler heads and move forward and put these kind of the way things have been going on today is unacceptable.

You know, I've sat for 14 years with a First Nation as chief. I've dealt with all these issues with regards to children in care and have gone to court many times across Canada with members from Salt River. And every time I went, I always had the support of either the territorial government, the Alberta government, the BC government, the Ontario government, and was able to make sure the child was put with family members. And that to me is strong leadership.

Never there's many times, even in my own life and I'm going to explain because I think a lot of people are just getting too carried away with some of the comments here. We have to represent all the people of the Northwest Territories no matter who they are the good ones, the bad ones, the whatever. And in my life, I've also been married to a white European person. I saw both sides of the spectrum of racism. And I try not to make my decisions only on that issue. And I've carried the Indigenous file all through my life right from my from when my father was in leadership. But I also want to make sure that even in the Dene Nation meetings, okay, sometimes I stood alone but you know what, all the leaders came over and would give you a hug or shake your hand even though you stood alone. And we've got to be able to still stand up, rise, and do the best for the people of the Northwest Territories. That is extremely important.

So I just ask both sides of the House to have cooler heads, vote with your heart, and try to move on, you know. And, you know, I have friends on both sides of the House. That doesn't mean that because I voted against a budget that I don't agree with them on all other issues. And with that, Mr. Chair, I think it's time that we vote on the first motion. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Martselos. Any further discussion?

Question.

Question's been called. The motion is in order. To the motion oh, sorry. Question's been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? All those abstaining? Motion carried.

Carried

Ms. Cleveland.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I hear the words of MLA Martselos, and I think that we knew that going in to this work that it would be very passionate work that committee would get to do together. And I think that it is work that has brought us closer together as a committee. And hopefully from today, there will be stronger conversations between both sides to bring both sides together as well. And I think that there were some hurt feelings here today for sure as far as the conversations that happened and through yourself, Mr. Chair, I respectfully ask that the Premier apologize to Members on this side of the House for the Point of Order rather than hearing out Members in full on what they had to say about the motion. Thank you.

Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no problem that's okay, Minister Green. I have no problem apologizing to the other side of the House. I believe that sometimes that if we do things wrong, we need to stand up and be strong. And if the Members are offended because I was offended because I thought that they were attacking my Cabinet, then I shall apologize to the Members if that's not what they meant. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Premier. Ms. Cleveland.