Thank you, Madam Chair. To the left of me, I have Ms. Eleanor Young, president and CEO of Housing NWT. And vicepresident Jim Martin, Housing NWT. Mahsi.
Thank you. Committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?
Agreed.
Committee, we will defer the housing corporation summary on page 373 and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with community housing services starting on page 377, with information items on page 378. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that the housing corporation has 107 positions. Can I just get clarification whether that number includes the staff at LHOs and, if not, how many positions exist within LHOs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The majority of our staff are with the local housing organizations and boards in the smaller communities. I don't have a percentage in front of me. I'll have Ms. Eleanor Young elaborate on the numbers. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Currently our local housing associations have 131.5 positions funded, and just currently there are 114 filled. There are a few vacancies in those positions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yes, I guess I'll start with a comment that it would be helpful I know that this is a finance template to include those positions. I know every time we go through this you get lots of questions about where jobs are in communities. And if any of these jobs move in the Housing Corp positions in the community, we talk about it but clearly the majority of staff are in LHOs. So I think some transparency there would be helpful for everyone. But I'll leave that as a comment.
My other question is I see under community housing services, there's $2 million approximately in property taxes and land leases. I guess I've expressed frustration at this before that I understand the housing corporation, being a corporation, pays its taxes and then MACA deals with that perhaps in a grant of lieu and then we pay lease fees to the Department of Lands. It just seems like this is $2 million that would be better not spent the government paying itself. Is there any efforts underway to reduce this payments for property taxes and land leases? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Presently we do hold leases with the Department of Lands as well, and we're working together to transfer those leases. I'll have President Young elaborate on the response. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So, yes, we do have a working group with the Department of Lands with the intention of converting all leased land that's possible into fee simple. We're starting with our multiunit builds and then gradually working towards single family dwelling lots. And we're working through a process with lands to deed those transfers so that we remove those leases from our books. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you. Yeah, I think that would be helpful that we just it seems an odd thing that the housing corp is paying lease fees to lands.
Can someone just explain to me the property taxes here? Is the housing corporation my understanding is that no other GNWT assets pay property tax. Good thing we have a former team of MACA here. They essentially we take the value of our assets and we give a grant in lieu through that formula. But can I just clarify whether the housing corporation is not part of that and, in fact, just pays property taxes? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Eleanor speak about the property taxes and exemptions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
President Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, actually, we are not, under the Property Assessment Taxation Act, able to do grant in lieu. So as a corporation, we do pay property taxes. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
It seems like there should be some way for the housing corp to get that off their books and have it treated like all the other GNWT assets. You know, it just seems odd that we're paying ourselves tax. But I'll leave that as a comment.
I did have a couple questions about the scope of authority of LHOs. I guess I'll start with, do any of our LHOs own any assets, whether that be housing or the offices they work in or anything at all? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The local housing authorities act on our behalf through a service agreement. We own all assets. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you. And I'm wondering if LHOs have the ability to manage other people's assets? I know here in Yellowknife both the city has kind of made that ask of the Yellowknife Housing Authority as well as perhaps some nonprofits, obviously for money, but is that something any of our LHOs do or are able do? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The local housing organizations are funded to provide services only for Housing NWT. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you. Is that something we are considering revisiting? I know, for example, the City of Yellowknife just bought an apartment building and is looking for someone to manage it. You know, the Yellowknife Housing Authority already manages hundreds of units. It probably would not be that much of an incremental cost to them to manage another unit. Are we willing to let any LHOs explore the possibility of managing other people's assets? I'll note that argument probably goes just as well for Indigenous governments who are looking to build their open housing but probably don't want to get into the maintenance of it. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We will be looking at the service agreements, but I also want to just inform the Member as well too that we also do have a hundred unit roll out that is happening within the lifetime of this government, and we are also struggling to find the operation and maintenance for those units as well too. It's just the reality when administering low income public housing units and social programming. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you. And I guess in the same vein, I know the Yellowknife Housing Authority has tried to apply for funding and been told they cannot directly apply for funding or obtain federal funding or any sources of funding outside of the money they get through the housing corp. Is that something we are willing to revisit? Thank you.
Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Through the service agreement, they do act on our behalf. We apply for the federal funding and we provide those services to the local housing authorities. And just once again, just an example of the hundred unit roll out that has happened through the Northwest Territories, LHOs have been allocated some of those units. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, I guess I'm curious as to why that you know, I get that they're agencies but some of them are, in fact, registered nonprofit societies and fit under federal grant applications and most certainly would be able to go get money. And, you know, the money from the feds might be something as simple as some training for staff, energy retrofits, or building housing. It just seems having another group apply for money of their own initiatives has zero downside. I get we might want to keep a bit of an eye on making sure they're not just building assets with, you know, without the maintenance funding, but there's plenty of federal funding pools out there. I'm curious why we would not let local housing organizations go out and get it. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And just once again that this is a government arm I mean, an arm that supports the delivery of public housing units and through our service agreements, there are requirements that they do have to follow. We do meet with the local housing authorities should there be anything they may need additionally.
We've just went out just with our energy plan that has been tabled as well too, so looking at improvements for the local housing authorities, but they do act on our behalf. They are societies and associations, but they are an extended arm to offer programs and services on our behalf. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, you know, I've said this before, I'll say it again. Either they should be arm's length and set policies on who can get into rental housing, apply for money, take on assets, or let's take those staff, bring them into the housing corporation, make them public servants, you know, are transferrable, that we can keep a track of waitlists, maintenance lists. It just seems I don't see any benefit to this current approach. I am of the view that giving them more authority is the way to go if we actually want local control, but. Yeah, I will try and frame that as a question.
Going forward, are we revisiting this question of, you know, whether LHOs have the proper list of responsibilities and whether perhaps, you know, allowing them to have different localized policies to their communities is in fact something we would want? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the question coming forward, and I appreciate the Member asking about the local housing authorities because it could be quite complex but then I just want to mention with the strategic renewal that we are working towards those changes as well and recognizing them and also how can we improve those services a lot more better and offer these stronger programming.
I just want to just elaborate on one of my trips that I did take in to one of the communities, is that we were soon to discover that we need more funding for maintenance too, to address our public housing needs. But through those service agreements, those type of situations are addressed, and we are looking to work towards improvement. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Are there any further questions on community housing services? Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. On page 377, I think that's the page we're on, I'd like an explanation of why the heating fuel costs have gone up by two and a half, $3 million for 20232024? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's the fuel price increase. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
