Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I hear where the Member is coming from, and I hear this comment throughout the Northwest Territories. But I put this opportunity out there. This was a new initiative, a new approach to say that these single-family housing units are up for sale, here you go, purchase them. But like I had said, we didn't have the huge uptake that I was expecting. I was honestly expecting to get rid of a thousand units. That's what I thought it would honestly look like. I wanted to go to the federal government to say we need a replenishment of a thousand units. We're selling them. We're going to have these agreements done in the next ten years. And I wanted to have a different conversation. But then the reaction from the public, like I had said it wasn't as the uptake wasn't as strong as I thought it would be. And then going back to the local housing authority and hearing that they're understaffed, they're overworked, I want to say that, you know, we're trying to improve the communication and the support for them at that local level. But I can tell you that I've travelled throughout the territory. These are probably the most these positions are very hard to staff. Thank you, Madam Chair.
The time has expired, so. I understand. We get ten minutes to ask questions. Member for Tu NedheWiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just part of the executive, I guess, I'm just I want to just chat a little bit about housing, and we heard some of it today and, as you know, I still have you know, we still have problems in our communities. Have been for a while. You know, I sat on the AFN housing committee for a while, and I understand the need of trying at least meet the demands in housing throughout Canada, and it's growing every day. You know, homeownership repairs in the communities is growing. Repairs are important. New homes, public housing down the road. You know, we already know that in 2036 that CMHC are going to be looking at cutting back on CMHC dollars to housing corporation completely. That's only 13 years away. And so what's the plan? So while we're trying to figure out the housing corporation even by that time, we probably would already have settled claims in the Deh Cho and Akaitcho region and including the Metis. But at the end of the day, you know, the vision and mission statement of the housing corporation overall really needs to be looked at now and because we got to allow for change that, you know, housing is going to be looked at and delivered at the local level.
And it's already under agreements, you know. And so how what's Housing NWT going to look like in 13 years? You know, it's really interesting. But in the meantime on the interim basis, you know, we look to our colleagues and your neighbour in Nunavut, and my colleague Caitlin Cleveland talked about that as well, and they've been aggressively lobbying Ottawa for housing for their jurisdiction for quite some time. And they've been successful. And they did you know, I'm happy to hear that, you know, they're making real progress in a lot of these areas. And same thing with the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation. You know, they've been doing the same thing. You know, just to touch on housing overall, you know, like, to look at all the homes here in the Northwest Territories, just to catch up on new homes, you know, I'm just thinking outside the box here, whether it be 4,500 to 6,000 I mean homes, you know, given new construction costs given today is it's crazy. The prices just went up, you know. So just to catch up on homes today, you know, I'd be surprised that we're looking at about almost $3 billion just to catch up. Not including the homeownership repairs in the communities. You know, that alone, you know you know, repairs alone is $1.2 billion. And not the mention that the ongoing costs of new homes in the community. But we're still going to need public housing sometime down the road. And the thing is that we I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe it's something that we should really think about now as a housing corporation that maybe we should have a I know that you're already saying that you're already working with the, you know, Indigenous governments and this and that. I understand that. But the reality is that we are going to have claims done by in 13 years when CMHC dollar happens. So we got to start thinking differently here. And, you know, sometimes whenever to me, whenever we make application to CIRNAC on our own and it just means that, you know you know, there's the trust and some barriers there that just is created when we do those kind of things. So I guess at the end of the day, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we may have to revisit our vision and mission statement of the housing corporation and how it's going to look in 13 years from now. And then what can we do now to improve that. You know, maybe by working together, we could do what Nunavut did. They were aggressive coming up with a housing plan for Nunavut to address, you know. Right now just what I mentioned, you know, we're talking about $4.8 billion. You know, I could be high, I don't know.
But the point is that, you know, we need to really start reaching out to settle claims and Indigenous governments as a new partner. Who knows? Maybe your structure that you already have here in your organization chart here, you know, there could be another organization there where we have you know, that we call the Circle of Leaders but not sometimes not everybody's there. Also we got to figure a way around this because housing is a problem. And right now, you know, I said it today that, you know, I'll be continuing to advocate for that. So anyways, I just wanted to share that with you because I'm just saying that, you know, at the end of the day we all got to work together. You know, we're you know, when we make a decision, we got to think seven generations ahead, you know. And housing's still going to be around. It's still going to be a problem. So anyways, I just wanted to make that comment in regards to the executive and the way they're thinking and then just how we could improve on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. A lot of comments there, but I appreciate them all coming forward as well because, you know, I first of all want to touch on AFN and when I first got the portfolio that, you know, there was some talk amongst AFN but they didn't recognize anything north of 60. So that conversation did not contribute to the Northwest Territories and what we needed up here in the territory. And also I want to compare us to Nunavut is that, yes, we do see the major plan that they do have out there but it doesn't come with any funding. You know, it's a plan that's out there, it looks great, but here in the Northwest Territories we're very unique. We have settled land claim areas. We have nonsettled land claim areas. We've got Indigenous governments that are in negotiations. We don't represent as one where Nunavut represents as one. And when we're having the conversation, there is 17 Indigenous groups that are having the same conversation that we are with really different significant needs and building in different climates. What we're building in Nunakput is not going to be what we're going to be building in Nahendeh, you know, and what we're going to be delivering in the Sahtu is not going to be in a timely manner as what's being delivered in Hay River.
You know, we're up against a lot of challenges here in the North. And looking at our success, we had over $500 million coming to the Indigenous governments through the distinctionbased funding that the Indigenous governments are front and centre. They are putting their land claim agreements to work. They are recognizing their selfgovernment agreements. And us as housing, we're sitting there sidebyside as a partner, not to compete with them but to give them our expertise. This is what we build; this is how we build; and these are the changes that we've made.
And right now, our energy plan is out there for consultation for the next two weeks, and that is something that is quite important to the portfolio. And I also want to recognize that we never had a replenishment of public housing units in four decades. Four decades, Madam Chair. You know, we've administered the same public housing units. And we needed the federal government to recognize that we need a replenishment. And I see that Housing NWT and the staff have made significant progress. And also the partnership of meeting with Indigenous governments, we're more welcome to the table than looked at as if what is it that you want now. You know, and I see a lot of our negotiated contracts that are going out.
Communities are building on behalf of their own communities. They're creating the employment. The money is staying in the North. So I see the progress that we have made. And our vision and mission, we've updated that this year as well too. So there's been a lot of work but it doesn't say that it's going to stop. But we still open those conversations and whatever. And I do have a scheduled meeting as well too with the Minister of Housing for Nunavut as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Tu NedheWiilideh, did you
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I got one minute left. I appreciate what she's saying. And the thing is that on the interim basis, you know, again, I am still concerned about, you know, how we make application to CIRNAC and I heard your comments today. But I think we're going to have to work a way to work with Indigenous governments much closer because it's still a problem. Again, I don't know what the housing corporation takes for administration on those dollars. And, again, we're still struggling with housing in the community. As an example, last this year I brought forward a housing situation in Lutselk'e, and I put the documents on the table and it's still not resolved. You know, so you know, to me, I just don't want to keep using these words, yeah, I hear it but nothing gets done, right. So we're going to have to really make the change at around but anyway, going forward, I think we need to come up with a better plan that's going to be inclusive because after 2036, we don't know what the government's going to do. I don't think they're going to just shut the door on us. I think there might be just a different program, different name, whatever. But anyway, Madam Chair, I'm just going to leave it there. Thank you.
Thank you. And I'll take that as a comment. Are there any further Members that haven't spoken to executive? Seeing none, we'll move on. Thank you.
Finance and infrastructure services, beginning on page 383, with information items on 384 and 385. So if Members could direct their questions to the information on these pages. Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that there's $955,000 for debt repayment. I'll note that in a previous fiscal year there was only $300,000. Can I get a confirmation that this is the money we owe to CMHC for mortgages and an explanation of why it increases? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Thank you. Vicepresident Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the $955,000 does represent debt payments to CMHC pursuant to the social housing agreement. The $313,000 actuals in 20212022 represents the interest portion associated with that debt payment. The balance is for principal, and that doesn't show up in expenses, but we still have to budget for that principal payment. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you. Can I get an updated figure of the total amount of money we owe CMHC? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. He's just finding his numbers. Thank you.
Thank you. Vicepresident Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. For 20232024, the outlook will be a remaining $3.3 million in debt owing to CMHC. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I know we're always talking about CMHC and we're always trying to get them to up our operation and funding and kind of pause 2038 but I think probably a good strategy, try and lobby that they just forgive us this money. That sure would be nice.
I'm looking here at contract services now. The budget line item I see has gone up approximately $500,000. Can I just get a summary of what that $1.7 million for contract services is and the reason for the increase? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond.
Vicepresident Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Contract services did increase approximately $500,000. This is explained by an increased investment in additional training for local housing organizations. There's two targeted areas for this additional training. One is in the area of maintenance management system upgrades and associated training as well as accounting training for LHOs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that, that seems like good money. Can I just get a bit of a sense of whether there are any plans to centralize the way we do maintenance? When I speak to the LHOs, you know, sometimes there's push back about what they're responsible for, what we're responsible for, what exactly gets in the schedule. It seems to me that the housing corp should probably have a piece of software that has every single unit in it and every single thing that's been done and all of that's inputted. You know, I know that we are really decentralized in this area. But is there any plans to kind of make sure we have a complete picture of every unit and the maintenance going on, whether it's us or the LHO? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Through the renewal, this is something we recognize, and we're working with this and also upgrades as well too. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you, and just a comment on that. I think there's probably some room for well, I'll say cooperation. I would rather perhaps some just straight direction from the housing corp speaking to the Yellowknife housing corp. They go off and do oneoff contracts and giving the example of, you know, they'll renovate a couple bathrooms in some units because there was some water damage and perhaps it's better, you know, for the housing corp to go okay, well, why don't we do, you know, 400 units at once and replace 400 units for taps as opposed to just random orders all across the territory, but. And, you know, I'll note that's how a private sector landlord would manage owning thousands of units. They wouldn't kind of break it down. So I'll leave that as a comment. I know I've made that comment before and they're looking at with the renewal to make sure we know what maintenance is being done and perhaps find some efficiencies.
My next question is I'm looking at loss of sale of assets, and I'll note in the actuals here for 20212022 fiscals, there's $1 million. Can someone just explain to me what that is. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Thank you. Vicepresident Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The loss on sale represents a noncash expenditure for the NWT Housing. And this comes about through the disposition of housing assets that have remaining net book value associated with those assets. So in 20212022, Housing NWT disposed of approximately 24 housing units. And as a result of that, there was $1 million loss on sale that had to be booked for accounting purposes. And within that, the most significant change there was related to Jean Marie River during the flood event. We had four units that were actually damaged beyond repair and had to be basically removed from the books. And the net book value associated with those alone was about $750,000. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to speak a bit about debt for the housing corporation. I've expressed this before that, you know, the power corp has a similar revenue to the housing corp, and it is hundreds of millions of dollars of debt and the housing corp, with about the same revenue as and sorry, I don't have the figure. But you guys got about $10 million or so, and you don't have a debt problem, that's for sure. And I'm just to me, it seems that we're spending, you know, $30 million on housing this is one of the biggest investments we've made in this Assembly that to pay outright for those buildings is a mistake. We should mortgage them to the hilt and pay them out over the next 35 years, as anyone who builds a building would do. They would mortgage the asset and, you know, not just pay for it in cash, which is essentially what the housing corp is proposing doing. And I know that is a limited by our debt ceiling but is there any conversation with the housing corporation going forward to get approval for more debt? And I'm not saying you got to rack up as much as the power corp. That's a bad idea. And they build, you know, extreme capital, I get that. But it seems to me that just we could leverage the current spend much better with assets that are inherently mortgageable, you know. Is there any plans to try and get a little bit more debt room into the housing corp? Thank you.
Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair, I was just waiting for the light to go on. I didn't see it right away. I'll have vicepresident Jim Martin respond. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Martin.
Thank you, Madam Chair. There's certainly different approaches at delivering housing, and one of them is through mortgage financing. And Housing NWT has certainly looked at this in the past and up to this point, you know, we've been obviously managing a fair number of funding pressures and dealing with the declining CMHC challenge as well. So obviously there's that limited O and M challenge that we do have to consider when taking on additional debt that would bring with it additional interest expense that would have to be serviced. But it's certainly something to consider in the future. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, and, you know, I think there's a different argument to be made, whether you want to, well, get a mortgage for a house in nonmarket community but, to me, if we're going to build a new building in Yellowknife, you know, where it's clear that that asset is mortgageable, it has a value, that would make sense. I guess I'll just leave that as a comment that perhaps, you know, at the housing corp, going forward when it tries to get money out of Cabinet, it might not get money but perhaps it could just ask for debt because that would work too. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you. I'll just take that as a comment.
Any further questions under the finance and infrastructure services? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, the department talks about putting 100 new homes I guess on the ground, finance are or I mean paying for that. I was just wondering, one of the issues sometimes that arise is the securing the land. I'm just wondering if, you know, when we're talking a hundred new homes, has the land been secured for that? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister Chinna.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes.
