Mahsi. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. One issue that I see arises once in a while is the fact that seniors, who have been approved under retrofits and repairs, in communities I guess where like, Hay River's going to be an issue. I'll use that as an example just because the flooding, the amount of work that's going on there. I know there's people looking to have work done this year. They've been approved. And I know the cost when the costs come in, they're probably going to be a lot more than what you think it's going to be and it's going to be over that over the limit. How do you deal with that? Do you top that off a bit, top it up a bit, or do you just put it on the client to pick up the difference? Thank you.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the changes that we have made with the seniors program is we increased I think it's the seniors aging in place modification and repair from, I think it was $10,000 to $15,000, and we limited the copay. But I'll just have Eleanor respond further on the details. President Young. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Young.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So there's a number of mitigation tactics we'll use. One might be to rescope the project, if that's possible, within the scope of the project. We also can look at different procurement techniques. So, for example, perhaps bundling likeprojects together to try to get pricing that will work within the budgets we've got. We try because these are set in policy, we do try to work within the program caps as much as possible, so we try to use those other techniques first to try to accommodate that or split it over two years. There's a number of tactics we can use to try to accommodate it if that's the issue. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, and that's good to hear that at least you're looking at ways to kind of reduce that cost and get it within budget because I know in Hay River there are a number of people with compromised roofs on their houses and with that, you know, they've been tarped for a couple years, two or three years, and they've been and there's been ongoing damage because of water and that as well which then, you know, it's the insulation on the inside, it's the electrical, and then the whole issue just and damage gets more costly. So, you know, the quicker we can actually deal with these issues as they arise, the better. So I guess more of a comment than anything. Thank you.
Mahsi. Minister, did you want to provide? Any further questions in this section? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. This is the section where there's some discussion of homeownership programs, and I'm just wondering how does the housing corporation sort of, what kind of metrics, what kind of measurements that it keeps around homeownership? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll have President Young elaborate on the response. Thank you.
Ms. Young.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. And primarily our metrics would be based on applications, number of applications we receive in any given year, the budget that's spent on any given year. We don't have an awful lot of detail of homes outside of those that we support through our programming. But in terms of our own programming, we would keep a fair amount of data about amount of money we spend on programming, the number of homes we approve, etcetera, etcetera. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
Okay, thanks, Mr. Chair. Yeah, if I guess the corporation is going to continue to promote homeownership, I think you probably need to measure it a little bit better. You know, is it I don't know, do you look at sales of vacant units? Or, you know, do any of the clients in public housing get opportunities or options to purchase the homes that they live in, and if so, how is that tracked over time? I guess I'm just trying to figure out how do you actually measure success of your homeownership programs. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. When we began in the life of this government that homeownership was identified as a priority, letters have gotten out to all public housing tenants that were possibly eligible or interested in becoming homeowners. I said previously that the uptake of it was not as strong as I thought it possibly would be. So then we ended up coming up with a different type of homeownership programming where we have the three to five years and the forgivable with that as well. I'll have President Young elaborate on the further details. Thank you.
Ms. Young.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And to add what the Minister said, really the way we design our programs will lend itself to some of that reporting. So we have the homeownership initiative which is the you know, the sale of public housing units in our communities. We have the home purchase program which is more in market communities. And we do track any of our own vacant units that we sell. So we would be able to provide that kind of detail on a yearoveryear basis. And that's what I meant, you know, when we track it by program is the easiest way for us to be able to measure success and see change year over year. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
Yeah, okay, thanks. Yeah, those are good metrics. And I guess while we're just on the subject of metrics and data, does the housing corporation actually produce an annual report that tracks all of these sort of metrics, indicators, and where do people find that? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We just track the approval of the applications right now. We don't really have anything in place. We just create that type of report. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
Okay, thanks, Mr. Chair. So I'm sure if I go to the public accounts, I'm going to find audited financial statements for the housing corporation, but is there sort of like a performance report or, you know, to tell people what you folks do, because if you don't, maybe that's a good thing to start. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We do have an annual report that is created and, you know, just identifying what it is that we need to look at for improvement as well too, whether our programs were successful or not. But we will be looking forward as for further improvements and there's a lot of areas that, you know, data collection and I'm not yeah, data collection and other services that we may need to establish here within the corporation to better track our information out there. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I don't think I have anything else but I do want to encourage the housing corporation, or whatever you call yourselves after April 1st, to start to track some of these metrics and data. And I know my colleague from Kam Lake has raised this with you, so collect the data, but just as important as collecting it as reporting it. Because if you don't collect and report, you got no way to improve. That's it, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Mahsi. Any further questions on this section? Mr. Edjericon.
Mr. Chairman, I've already asked some questions, but I got two more questions. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to mention that? Okay, can I ask my two questions? Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm just trying to figure out how we could continue to build new relationships with Indigenous governments here in the Northwest Territories. And I'm just trying to figure a way, because last year I sent a letter to the Minister of the Housing Corporation going back to June 10th, 2022, and regarding Housing NWT repairs or homeownership replacement for Tu NedheWiilideh riding. And based on my tour of my riding, I put together a letter and a list of names of people that really need their homes repaired.
And it's a long list of names that I have for my four communities, outlining basically the scope of work and what needs to get done. But it was clear that when I got a letter back three months later more or less saying that they got the housing corporation's working with, you know, the Indigenous governments on the housing strategy and that kind of thing. But I think what needs to be very clear is that what I was asking for too as well is that we need an additional $350,000 but that probably could be up to $400,000 now to actually do a unit conditional rating of all the private homes in my riding. And the purpose of that is to as you know, you already know what unit condition ratings are. And just for people that don't know, is if you have a home and you go into the community, and let's say the life cycle of a house is 50 years, and that homes is 20 years old or 25 years old, then, you know, you want to get that building assessed so that it meets the National Building Code and all applicable codes that goes along. So, you know, then you could hire somebody to come in to do an inspection. You look at the building, you look at the mechanical, electrical, plumbing, the structure itself, etcetera, to give you an idea, you know, if that unit needs repairs. So out of a hundred percent, you know, if a door is you know, the jam is split or whatever it may be, you know, you could repair it or replace it then you'll know. And you do that to the whole house. And then at the end, you rate that house at let's say at 60 percent. Well, then we got all these homes in the community, the private homes that we want to take a look at. But for that 60 percent, there's 40 percent of work that needs to get done to bring that building up to code. So on average, looking at the housing corporation tenders for public housing retrofits, they're coming in anywhere from 150 to $200,000 depending on where it is.
So having said that but in my riding, we got over 500 and probably 50 homes that's public housing. I'm going to say so we'll just say 350 homes that needs to be looked as an example. And, but the thing is that the replacement costs on those things are probably going to be $222 million if we were take that same 350 homes and then replace it, so. But the repair costs, you know, on a high number, you know, could be up to $70 million to take that home and bring it back up brings in the life cycle from another 30 years, if we were to do it. So I'm just thinking outside the box where if we could take that $350,000, or whatever it costs to do it, but this I asked this question earlier, and it I think it was people didn't really understand why I was asking this, this money.
And essentially it was just to have somebody come into that unit that's certified as a journeyman, that's able to understand mechanical, electrical, building structure, etcetera, and they sign off on it. And then once it's signed off, then you could figure out what the cost is going to be to fix up those units. So I think that we have a good thing here. I think if we could work together and try to help find the money and give it to the Indigenous governments so they could hire their own people to do the inspections.
Having said that, then maybe we could be forging new relationships and look at that maybe working together and applying for money from CIRNAC together and then come up with a plan. Come up with plan over four or five years to make all the repairs in the communities. And I mean, I think that's a good initiative because, like I said, if the replacement cost is over $222 million versus $70 million just to bring it up to code, well that's a good investment. And it's good for the community. It creates jobs. It's healthy for the families and so on. There's so much that could come out of this.
So I want to see if there's a way that maybe moving forward that I wrote a letter, like I said, last year. Maybe if we could pull that letter out and look at it again and trying to work together and see how we could try to make that happen. Again, we could apply to CIRNAC and help with that. And then also once we get that together, we would come up with a plan and work with the communities and then it's a winwin for everybody. So I just want to just mention that, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I'm going to try to not take up too much time. I'm kind of excited for the Member to speak about this as well because it's the Gahcho Dene Housing Society has been the only community that has taken this initiative and has taken housing to their own level and actually even beyond. Right now, they've accessed money through the federal government, have a strong working relationship with CMHC, and don't really require for us to be at the table but for us to be partnering and supporting their initiatives going forward.
They actually do have the unit condition ratings as well too, and they have looked at the homeownership and not public housing, but looking at housing repairs for their own communities. Right now they do have a couple of apprentices that are attending school in Fort Smith. They've got some high school students that are attending the SNAP program in Fort Smith as well too. And with that housing society, they went and took three of their individual employees and they are taking a leadership program with Aurora College as well.
So that just displays how significant a partnership can be. Working together at a smaller community and really watching them navigate themselves through the federal system and just exercising their own leadership, it's quite inspiring. But if it could be done in that community, it can be done in any community throughout the territory. So I like where the Member's going with those comments. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Edjericon.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the Minister for your response. I think it's a really good idea that I like what you've done in Fort Good Hope. You were there last fall and we like what we seen there too as well. So I guess maybe what I could do is if I want to make sure I want to be very clear that what I'm asking for is separate and outside from what the housing strategies that's already ongoing in the communities of YKDFN and Dettah and sorry, Lutselk'e and Fort Resolution. This here is a separate little project where we could just really work together and identify what the, you know, the units are and then what are going to cost to repair those things and so on. And it's going to be a winwin. So I think if we can look at it that way. And then I would like to if it's okay with the Minister, I'd like to forward that email back to you and see if we could work together on that and if we could get some kind of commitment. And I just got off the phone with the chief in Fort Resolution and, you know, he's excited if we could do that because it's a winwin where we could get jobs.
And we need jobs in the community. So anyway, so if it's okay and maybe working with the deputy minister and, you know, trying to at least come up with a plan and figure something out. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mahsi.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to following up with the Member. Thank you.
Mahsi. Mr. Edjericon. Mr. Edjericon, do you have any further questions?
Mr. Chairman, no, I think I had a commitment from her already, so I look forward to reaching out to her and trying to get this thing sorted out. Mahsi.
All right, mahsi. Are there any further questions on this section? We can live with it? All right, let's see what the program says. There will be no further questions on this section. There's an additional information item on page 390, lease commitments. Any questions? Mr. Johnson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's be remiss not to mention my favourite landlord Northview, who I note since we lease from them we're now sharing security costs at one of their buildings. And (a) I don't really want to head down a path where we have to add security guards to all of our public housing units. We certainly cannot afford to do that. And I'll note security guards don't house people so there's money probably better spent. But I guess my point here is are we going out to retender any of these leases any time soon? And I'll note if we're going to do that, we're going to have to do it in real small sections and probably phone some landlords. There's not a lot of people who can just give you 80 units in response to a tender. But are we going to get out of these leases any time soon? Thank you.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Right now we are looking at trying to get out of I think it's 21 of the leases. But also trying to do things differently as well too. Instead of putting this out and looking for 80 leases, we're trying to not that don't record that number. That's I'm just exaggerating. I don't know if it's 80 or 40 or whatever. But just trying to break it up so we have smaller businesses that may be able to get into any type of agreement with us that may have ten units available and not 60 kind of thing. But we're looking at options to better accommodate the leases here in Yellowknife and throughout the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.
Yeah, thank you. And can someone just help me understand. My understanding is that Housing First currently also operates out of Northview through leasing. But I'm just wondering if those are we hold those leases or the nonprofit does, or whether that is anything to do with the housing corp.? Thank you.
Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. No, Housing First is not our program. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.
No, just I hope we can find some creative ways to, you know, slowly diversify the way we are leasing and, you know, work with some smaller landlords. I don't even think it's you know, there's some fourplexes in town I think we could probably try and lease. And, you know, if you get something like a fourplex with separate entrances, you're not going to have people selling crack in the hallways and, you know, you're not going to need security. So I think with some creativity, we can diversify this. Thank you.
