Thank you, Madam Chair. I won't get into the debate about what I feel about the comment of, like of the forprofit being the designation between helping and not helping. I would actually want to reterm that as the, you know, for barelyprofit or barelyforprofit would be more accurate, I think.
My question, though, is when this money was announced, you know, I had hoped that we would be able to look into putting money into small communities to pay relatives, etcetera, that take care of grandchildren or nieces and nephews and such. And then upon my conversations and my many conversations with day home providers, it's my understanding that in order to do that there would need to be a subclass or sublicense created around a relative caring for kids. And I just want to know if the department is looking at that?
I mean, when I look at this again and I mean, go against the grain. I am a Yellowknife MLA however this is only benefitting large regional centres in Yellowknife. It's not benefitting people in small communities where we need people to be able to get out and be employed and be we all know being employed leads to better wellbeing and mental health because you have a reason to get up, you have a point of pride, you could take care of your family. So can the Minister or the department speak to how does this help get money into the hands of the people in small communities that need child care? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of ECE.
Thank you. So in many small communities, there is child care that's provided often by the Indigenous government, and it is often provided free of charge unlike the larger centres. And we are aware of that then we want to support those organizations as well. So a portion of this funding is available to those centres to help them with yes, stabilization funding and as well we have our other streams of funding.
In terms of, you know, providing funding directly to, say, grandparents who are looking after their grandkids, we are bound by the terms of the agreement with the Government of Canada. There is a real focus on licensed child care centres. Perhaps I can ask the deputy minister to get into some more of the details around that. Thank you.
Thank you. Deputy minister MacDonald.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And the Minister's absolutely correct. The Canadawide agreements that were negotiated by all 13 provinces and territories late in 2021 all focus on creating roughly equivalent a national early learning and child care system which is modeled off of the Quebec model. That system is generally focused on licensed facilities and, at least the initial focus of effort over the initial five years of that agreement, is to roll out that system. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I'm well aware; I've heard this department cite many times that it's the feds, it's the feds, it's the feds. Well, then I look at this again as another failure from our Cabinet and our leadership to properly advocate on behalf of the people of our territory. I think all of us in the discussion around child care are well aware that we are not Vancouver, we are not Toronto, we're not even Edmonton. So all I can say is I'm tired of hearing as this as the rationale. We have things in our upcoming bill that aren't even around the funding so I find this to be just a bit of a very easy thing to say rather than actually looking at what people in this community or this committee and this group are saying. The day home providers are not making money, and they are educated. They have master's degrees and 30 years of experience and a whole whack of investment into their homes. And the way that they've been treated through all of this is disappointing. And I have realized that the way that this department gets around it is by talking about day cares and supports to day cares, which is not day home providers which I only realized yesterday. And that's where a lot of that confusion has been in the media.
So, Madam Chair, I think this is has been a total failure of a rollout in this funding, and I don't really have any further questions because I'm tired of just hearing it's because of the feds. Thank you.
Thank you. Are there any further questions under early learning and child care? Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. So over on page 44, the contributions, the last item supporting childhood inclusion child inclusion and participation, and it shows $1.7 million. I just want to verify what the uptake for that program is and whether it's actually oversubscribed in any way. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of ECE.
It is fully subscribed.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Okay, thanks, that's good to hear. And maybe we need to increase it, but. You know, I guess the department has capped the ability of daycare providers to capture or get revenues from parents. They're also requiring will be requiring operators to pay staff more and to have them trained and properly certified. Those are all good things. But they're being squeezed at both ends now. So where in the budget would I find money increasing to daycare providers as an operator subsidy or the support for them; where do I find that? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of ECE.
Thank you. So this would be the section, the early learning and child care section. Most of this money flows to the providers. We have a number of programs that support both day homes and day care centres. They're funded on a per child basis. We've increased the funding for staff for day homes. We are working on amending our per child funding as well to ensure that it is more responsive to the needs of child care centres and day homes. I mean, it's a pretty big question. I'll I won't just list all of our programs. I'll hand it back to the Member. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Okay, thanks for that. So has the department actually done an analysis to say gee, you know, as a sector, they've reduced income with the capping of the fees as X amount and the increased expenditures is Y amount, because of the training requirements, certification, the pay grid that's going to come in, so we need to increase it by Z amount. Have we calculated X, Y, Z? Thanks and does X plus Y equal Z. Thanks, Madam Chair.
I don't know, but Minister of ECE.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. It's been a while since I've done any algebra. But the plan is to develop the programs going forward in conjunction, or in cooperation with the sector to ensure that we have all those numbers and that in the end we are providing child care centres and day homes with the funding that will allow them to be sustainable while still ensuring that our own funding is sufficient. So we only have limited dollars, and we are doing our best to ensure stability and stay within that budget. This is a massive system change. It hasn't been as smooth as I would have liked. If I could do it again, I would definitely make some changes. But that's the situation we're in. We realize that we need to get people on board. We need to be partners with everyone and so we are making those efforts. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks. Well, I agree with the Minister's assessment. I think part of this is because we signed onto the agreement late. It was late in the financial year and one of the things that had to be done was to make sure that parents had reduced fees, which meant capping the ability for daycare operators to capture revenues.
So if that kind of analysis hasn't been done, it's not a good we're not in a good place. And, yeah, if I if it could be rolled out again, I'd probably start with the carrots rather than the sticks. So how is the department going to provide some reassurance and confidence to operators that there is going to be more money available to them to deal with these restrictions on income and increased expenditures? And, look, this is all good stuff, I'm not questioning it, I think it's good. But they need we need to change the messaging and the bigger picture that we're communicating. And I think that's led to a lot of problems so how is that going to be fixed? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of ECE.
Thank you. And going back, you know, we needed to reduce fees by 50 percent by the end of 2022. I wanted to get money into families' pockets earlier than that and so I take full responsibility for the quick rollout and the poor relationships. Going back I would have not reduced fees so early. It would have you know, we would have we would not have put that money back in parents' pockets but the health of the sector, the longterm health I think is what is of the utmost importance. So, you know, that's you know, that's something that I learned from. Can I one second, please.
And in terms of sufficient funding, the Government of Canada, our agreement with them, increases year after year. The first year we receive less. More money will be received every subsequent year. So our budgets will go up. As we work through these regulations, we'll be able to put a finer point on some of those issues that the Member is talking about.
We did do modelling while we were negotiating this agreement. You know, that led to massive changes in what was being requested from us from the Government of Canada. But until you're actually on the ground working with people oneonone and the providers and seeing all those numbers in real time, it's difficult to get an accurate accounting. So as we move forward and develop these regulations and work with providers, we hope to settle on a system that everyone's happy with. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. And thanks for that from the Minister. I guess yeah, I get that there's money for this but what I think you need to do is to change the messaging a little bit. Probably more than a little bit. But you want to instill some confidence and rebuild some trust here that there is more money for day home operators, for child cares, and it's coming. And some of that needs to be coming out of this budget. And you need to make that the message now, because you're restricting their ability to raise money, you're also increasing their costs. You're not telling them that you're going to increase their funding. So can we start to deliver that message, Madam Chair? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of ECE.
Thank you. And I'll say right now, to everyone, all the day homes, day cares listening, we are going to increase funding. We've told them that at the meetings. We have early childhood association meetings. The department has been meeting with them trying to make the repair those relationships. I know that discussions and meetings don't always make it out to everyone and so perhaps that's part of the issue. But we're also seeing entrepreneurs who have looked at the environment, the current operating environment, and decided to open day homes and so they are in we're now in the process of licensing a number of day home operators and we expect those to come online, you know, in the near future. So the situation we have right now, it is it's something someone has looked at and said, you know what, I can make a go at that. So, again, I'll admit there's a lot of work to be done. There's a significant amount of work to be done. There's a significant amount of collaboration that needs to happen and funds that need to be spent, and we are committed to doing that. Thank you.
Thank you. Are there any further questions to the early learning and child care section? Seeing none, please turn to page 43.
Education, Culture and Employment, early learning and child care, operations expenditure summary, 20232024 Main Estimates, $22,969,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Can you please turn now to income security, beginning on page 48 with information items on page 49 and 50. Questions? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to talk a bit about I guess basic income. We're talking we're providing income anyway, assistance to people. And basic income, you know, it's been batted around. We talk about it. There's been, you know, people different jurisdictions have tried it, and some of the things that came out of it it is shown that, you know, people who receive it are less likely to be hospitalized, likely more willing to continue education. It also doesn't discourage people from working. It helps them to, you know, get out there and actually look for work as well. So I'm just wondering has the department assessed what the number for a basic income would be for the NWT? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of ECE.
Thank you. You know, there were numbers batted around in previous years. There was not a number that I felt that I would be able to put forward given our fiscal constraints so instead what we did is we looked at revamping the income assistance program, creating a new program for seniors and persons with disability that is really much more like a guaranteed basic income because those individuals will only have to apply once a year and not report their income monthly. So I can leave it at that. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Like I said, is that we're already paying income support anyway and so the difference we'd be looking at is what we're already paying and what's required. So have we actually looked at that cost to see what that what that difference would be to, say, bump it to up to a basic income. Thank you.
Minister.
Thank you. Tens of millions of dollars beyond what we're already spending. Thank you.
MLA Simpson.
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. So tens of millions of dollars? So is that $10 million or is that going to be a multiple of ten and but I got another I got another question here as well.
So with some of the like, you know right now we're talking also about carbon tax revenue and what you know, what we could actually use it for, and I'm just wondering if, you know, there's an area that we might be able use some of that funding for as well because we're trying to get it back into the hands of the people anyway. And so if you add that in there, what people are already getting, is there an opportunity, I guess, to really take a look at it and see if we could do something with basic income, or even if it was just a pilot project just to try it out here in, you know, some of the communities and just see how it works for, you know, a few years. Thank you.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you. So when the money goes into the pot, that's the money we have. So it doesn't matter where it comes from. If it's from a carbon tax, if it's from, you know, permit fees or anything like that. So we look at what we have and what we can do with it. I have not instructed the department to spend their energy working on guaranteed basic income given that we are expending a lot of energy working on the income assistance program changes. I did try to take the approach of lessening the reducing the number of times that an individual might be cut off from income assistance. You know, as MLAs, I'm sure you all hear from your constituents that perhaps they got some money in and then they got cut from income assistance. They got fired from their job and they got cut off from income assistance for 60 or 90 days, or. These things happen, so. We have eliminated a number of those instances so there will be much more consistency for individuals who are receiving income assistance. There and a project such as basic income was not one of the priorities of this Assembly and because of that we have not pursued it. Thank you.
Mahsi for that. MLA Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I you know, I think that, you know, with the population base that we have, which is fairly small, our budget isn't that great either. But, you know, we have an opportunity here to try some things out that are innovative and on a small scale and, you know, maybe there is some buy in from the federal government as well. You know, I know it's not a priority but, you know, there's a number of things that aren't priorities that we've been doing. So but, yeah, just a comment there. But I think it's just something that we should look at, we should consider. And I know nothing's going to happen, you know, during this the rest of this Assembly but it's something that, you know, the future MLAs can hopefully look at. Thank you.
Mahsi for that. Minister, do you care to comment on that?
Thank you. And I know that Alternatives North has been interested in this for some time and then I think they have produced reports in the past possibly, but I know they are working on another one and the department has been involved with them. So it is not something that is completely off our radar. But the Member's correct, it's not going to happen in this budget. But, I mean, the next Assembly could definitely make that a priority. Thank you.
Mahsi to that. Next we have MLA Semmler.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions are in regards to the budget changes. The Minister had made some an amazing announcement under income assistance program to make those changes. And I think a lot of those changes came from a lot of the complaining that Regular Members have had and the review that they did. So I want to, like, thank the Minister for making those changes because I know it's going to affect a lot of the people. But I'm just wondering how those changes and I see that there's an increase in that program about five just over $5 million. And how is this being communicated out to the public? Because, I mean, if it's starting April 1st and then all these changes, like, you know, we have a lot of people out there that don't even know about this and I know that they'll be going in through the program. But we also have people that don't know and might seem not wanting to use these programs just because of stigma and things like that. But we've kind of made this our living wage not it's not a living wage, but it's to help the people get the basic needs that they need. And so if they're working minimal wage jobs and they need those topups, this is where they can get those assistance. And I think the Minister made a lot of announcements and I just want to hear a little bit more and, like I said, congratulate the department on the work that they've done here. Thank you.
Mahsi. Minister.
Thank you. And I did make a statement in the House here. There was not associated communications that came with that. Those will happen later in the year. I'll just tell you it shows me the value of our comms teams because, you know, I've said some I made a big announcement but we didn't have any associated communication materials coming out and no one knows about it outside of this room basically. So I just want to kudos to our comms team there.
But the program changes are significant. It's more than just, you know, changing some dollar amounts. There's a lot of regulatory changes that have to happen and there's new software that we need because we are splitting the programs and really creating a new standalone program for seniors and persons with disabilities. So this will not take effect April 1st. We're aiming for June sometime June/July. Because that's so far out right now, we still don't have a firm date. But after the budget, assuming the budget is passed, then we can begin working on comms once we have a bit more information. So this will become widely known, and we will be getting the word out the best we can. Thank you.
Mahsi. MLA Semmler.
