Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, I understand at this point that in order to provide - or in order to request the contract or to do the procurement, they are looking at having a completion of the Mineral Resources Act regulations. And so in order for that to be completed - again, that is now on track to have - to be out and gazetted and doing section 35 consultations this coming fall, which would mean that in early 2024 that that final they'd be at a procurement stage.
I do understand, Madam Chair, that there's some effort to do things parallel as much as possible in the sense of some design and planning being undertaken concurrently. Nevertheless, the actual procurement won't take place until again the Mineral Resource Act regs themselves are finalized, which again, does need to still go through the gazetting and formal consultative process this fall. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, you know, we already approved previously a list of a bunch of software that we've carried over many times. I guess I'm very skeptical about this one getting also procured in this fiscal year. I think it's a safe bet to see it would be carried over one more time. I get you have to have the money before you go out to tender so maybe we'll squeak in at the end of this fiscal.
I guess can we get a - there's $175,000 here. Can we get an estimate of what the total cost for this would be? I believe at one point we were looking for something a little off the shelf and then we figured out well, it's actually going to depend on what the regulations say and we may need some rather custom software for ourselves. Are we just - do we have a cost estimate? Are we on track? I'm sure it's a lot more than $175,000. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So an estimate right now would be in the range of approximately $370,000. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah. Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. Maybe I had a different number in my head. I guess, sorry, can I clarify, then, would that - that's the first time I heard that number. Would that be, like, a licensing fee? Has something changed in the sense that it would be $370,000 annually or, yeah, can I just get some more context. Is that total, we get some custom designed software and we own it kind of thing? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Madam Chair, thank you. I don't know that with certainty, so I don't want to surmise here. I just I'm showing a contract value. Now, whether there'd be some additional annual fee, I would anticipate so, but I don't have that here. So I will confirm, and we'll get back to committee. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I would, yeah, like that to committee, of the total cost. My understanding was it was going to cost millions of dollars to build this software and then probably some licensing fees ongoing after that. And some of that, you know, I know is found in capital and some in operations so I was under a different understanding. But I think if committee could get a general update on what's going on here, this is one of those - there's a lot of people. We're the last jurisdiction left in Canada without online map staking. It would be really nice to have a firm deadline. I get it has to go through the regs first but a bit of an update before the end of this Assembly would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there is also, you know, a lot of concurrency here with the Land Tenure Optimization System, or LTOS, and that will certainly be a significant factor as in there will be, I expect, some additional costs, and probably not insignificant costs. That is the bigger picture system and MARS is one part of that. So yes. Short answer though is yes, happy to ensure that we can give a bigger update to committee. Some of that may be confidential depending on contracts state but as much as can be made public, I'll certainly make note that we provide that as well. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks. My colleagues from Yellowknife North asked some of the questions I wanted to. So this $175,000 that's being carried over, was any money spent on this MARS thing in 20222023? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, Madam Chair, $284,000. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, the number that kind of sticks in my head is the cost for the whole project was something like about $3.4 million. But does that ring a bell with anybody, any of my friends over there? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, let me go back and double check. I mean, I'm showing various carry over amounts over the year over year, but I don't know that I have a total project in front of me. So at the risk of being inaccurate, again, I will confirm - I will make sure that we can get that to committee unless we get it here in the next few seconds from someone else in cyberspace. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake, did you have further questions, or do you want to give them time?
Thanks, Madam Chair. Well, I got eight and a half minutes left on the clock; I probably don't need it all but I'm happy to give them a minute or two to find it. Thanks.
Minister, would you have the information?
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it's like watching a kettle boil. It's now not going to happen. And, Madam Chair, I do have numbers. I just want to ensure there's numbers - as I say, it does show, you know, revised budgets year over year and capital carryovers but I'm not convinced that what I'm seeing is showing a total project budget. As well, Madam Chair, I think there's a total project budget but that also - I'm not sure if that is strictly the infrastructure side of it or if it also included some of the other costs. So that is what I'd like to ensure if we're going to get this out there. So it may well be that I need to confirm that to the House tomorrow, to my colleagues tomorrow. I think the Member's correct that there's a roughly 3 to $4 million total project budget, but that's the total project budget and not necessarily the infrastructure associated with MARS. So that's the distinction I'm drawing. I think the numbers my colleagues have are correct. But, again, some of that may have been added staffing, supports, etcetera, research analysis, that went into developing the MARS and not just the MARS system. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, okay, no, thanks. I look forward to getting that information and if there's a way to kind of show the cash flow over time, I think that would be really helpful.
I guess more of a comment from me now, Madam Chair. I'm not quite as anxious to jump to claim sorry, map staking from claim staking as my colleague from Yellowknife North because I think there's still some really significant policy questions that really haven't been explored in any way. You know, and part of that is, you know, how much is it going to are the fees going to remain the same because we don't want to create - well, I certainly don't think it's helpful to create a staking rush where people can go and tie up land and not do anything exploration on it, so.
And that's been the experience with some other jurisdictions that have gone to map staking. I've asked the Minister about this before and I don't think I've really gotten good answers. But that can of worms has to be opened at some point and needs to be part of a public debate about what those fees are going to look like to prevent unnecessary speculation and ensure that there's actually a fair return to the public purse if we do move to map staking. So I'll just leave it at that, Madam Chair, and I look forward to being into that can of worms pretty soon. Thank you.
Thank you. Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 20232024, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, capital investment expenditures, minerals and petroleum resources, not previously authorized, $175,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 20232024, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, capital investment expenditures, tourism and parks, not previously authorized, $2,829,000. Does committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Look, I really love the North Arm Park; we often stop there. We've actually camped there once. But there's about five or six different line items in here for different parts of this park. You know, gatehouse living quarters, the outhouse dump station, electrical project. What is going on with this? There's even more on the next - sorry, even on the second page for a playground. What's going on with the whole thing? Like, why is this continually being carried over and what's going on? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So all of the project that is under the North Arm Park theme within the Tlicho region, that is part of - you might recall we have the Tlicho Infrastructure Cooperation Agreement, and so moving this project forward has been subject to that agreement and operating under that agreement has proven - or has resulted in some delay in terms of being able to establish contracts and to have it procured through that process. I think there's a path forward now, and so the carry over here now should hopefully see more of that money spent this fiscal year. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, okay, thanks. That might be good news. I can't count the number of times we've stopped there, sometimes just quick pit stops, but whenever we been there there's people from the community using that spot, especially in the summer. So whatever you guys can do to get this work done would be great because it's heavily used by the community and by, you know, folks that drive by as well. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I don't disagree. And so I actually have made a note just to follow up on where this will be proceeding. I mean, and the TICA is certainly very - I think hopefully fairly progressive approach to procurement but it's also a fairly new one, and so you know, whether we're going to use that process or another, we at some point do not want to see any further delays on this. Thank you.
Thank you. Any further questions, Member for Frame Lake?
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 20232024, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, capital investment expenditures, tourism and parks, not previously authorized, $2,829,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 20232024, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, capital investment expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $5,784,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Please turn to page 17. Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 20232024, Department of Infrastructure, capital investment expenditures, asset management, not previously authorized, $14,047,000. Does committee agree? Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just noting that while that's an overall of 14, it's actually we have $23 million coming and $9 million of a reduction there. So I just wanted to ask a little bit about the Frank Channel Bridge reduction of $9.6 million. I understand that is to do with delays in the project; however, can the Minister give us some update on where that project's at and when are we going to see things start? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So this is one where this is - it's termed as a recash flowing of the project. So the project is still moving forward. It did see some delays, but that money is moving into future years, and we are anticipating there's going to be spend in 20222023 so starting but starting this summer I'm sorry, yeah. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And it's my understanding that this project will also be subject to the Tlicho Agreement that the Minister was referring to earlier in the tourism section. And I'm just curious to know, given that that has delayed other projects in the past, what's being done to ensure that the Frank Channel doesn't have that same issue given - at the Frank Channel Bridge given that it is such a critical piece of infrastructure to our region and to the territory as a whole?
Also, I note that it is my understanding that most of the projects that are being done under this agreement are coming in at great higher - a greater price tag than other projects done in other communities that are equivalent or even actually more remote. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, Madam Chair, I was thinking, just to be clear, earlier the spending is happening this summer, which is the 20232024 spend, and it is expected at this point that that will be a sufficient amount to move us to a point with regulatory permitting, engagement, design, etcetera, will be done this summer.
Madam Chair, you know, with respect to the Infrastructure Cooperation Agreement, numbers do at times may come in higher but that is anticipated and that is certainly with respect to procurement, often said and often argued, that some additional costs reflective of the fact that the costs for contractors in the North are higher is appropriate. Obviously there's a limit to how much we can allow public dollars to spend in a higher amount. So what the Infrastructure Cooperation Agreement tries to do in terms of striking that balance while allowing and expecting some because, again, as I said knowing that there will be some additional cost here but then keeping those dollars in the North has a benefit. But we don't have to go through procurement we're not the GNWT's not bound to procure directly if there's an inability to reach agreement on the contracting dollars. There is a pathway out at which point then a different provision of the agreement kicks in and what we would do is ensure that any public procurement process includes within it a requirement for local labour. So I cannot say whether or not we're going to find ourselves in which version of the ICA we'll find ourselves in here. I don't have that information here, but I do want to assure the public that there is that balance in terms of northern dollars versus ensuring appropriate value for public dollars. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
