Debates of August 28, 2023 (day 161)

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, you might recall there was $35 million as part of the supplementary reserve. That is you know, that will be more than depleted, quite correctly, at this point, that not involving the wildfires but there's, you know, certainly been other events that have occurred. So, yeah, we'll be well out of that.

As for the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, Madam Chair, what we do also have going for us is that it's not only the cash of the costs for expenses that drive the operation surplus from the perspective of its compliance with the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, there's amortization of assets and that also does factor in it. And so with that, we are hopeful that we will still have sufficient amount to be in compliance with the Fiscal Responsibility Policy for the purposes of capital. That is not to say that we will be in a typically positive position overall in terms of where our operations expenses are. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, okay. Thanks, yeah, now I'm really worried. So does Cabinet anticipate anything to bring forward a special warrant or that sort of instrument during the sort of caretaker period between the end of this Assembly and the election of the next Cabinet to help cover firefighting and/or other costs? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so, of course, a special warrant would be where it would be on the lead of Department of Finance Cabinet to issue an appropriation without going through the Assembly process. That is never a first choice. Madam Chair, that's my hope where even as I was giving you the estimates of where we're at in terms of our firefighting and the estimated shortfall as of about a week ago, you know, it would put us around $69.5 million shortfall, we are asking for $75 million here today. If this is passed, it is our anticipation, Madam Chair, that this should be sufficient to get us through to the end of the fire season and therefore well into the next Assembly and certainly there should be, you know, enough flexibility with that that a special warrant would therefore not be required. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Can we anticipate seeing another supplementary appropriation, then, for the last sitting of this Assembly, scheduled for late September, that would perhaps deal with the firefighting issue but also support financial support for evacuation, you know, other costs associated with the emergency that's, you know, presently throughout the Northwest Territories. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, Madam Chair, I think at this point, ECC would be getting, you know, the benefit of this supplementary appropriation that we're proposing here today, and that would be for the fire suppression budget. MACA's responsible for evacuation/emergency costs, and certainly those have now been quite significant. There's quite a lot that does go into that, whether it's the evacuation of flights that have now been opened up, or whether it's the you know, just the coordination efforts that now span many communities. That is something they do budget for. Now, that said, the additional support funds that have been announced through the Department of Finance and through ITI are not necessarily something budgeted for and are also into the millions already. So I do expect that we would see that come forward in a sup if there is a late September sitting. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I would certainly strongly encourage Cabinet to do that. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to see a special warrant issued in that just in the interest of accountability and transparency, there is obviously financial need for these areas and I think that the appropriate way to deal with it is through supplementary appropriation and not a special warrant, so and I think I saw the Minister shaking her head yes.

The last question, perhaps, Madam Chair, is or maybe one more comment after that very quickly what is Cabinet doing to try to secure any federal support to try to deal with this huge shortfall? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, typically leave for that does, of course, fall to the Premier's Office, and I think it was made public, and it certainly was shared with Members that the Premier's Office did meet with the Prime Minister so, you know, in that sense has taken the message about as high up as it can go. And, you know, obviously as we move forward, if there are some individual areas of interest, you know, different Ministers are meeting with their counterparts. For example, the Minister responsible for emergency Preparedness would be meeting with his counterpart in the federal government or myself with CanNor if there's some specific issues but it is led by the Premier's Office, and that has already begun. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake, you have about a minute left.

Yes, no, thanks, Madam Chair. I guess lastly, I will have a number of comments that I'm going to make about the adequacy of the evacuation transport financial assistance program, whatever it's called, and the fairness and adequacy of that as well as some other supports that I think are needed as some of the other Members alluded to, but I thought that it was best to make those sorts of comments at second reading of the supplementary appropriation bill that should happen later today.

But I do want to thank my Cabinet colleagues for the work because I know that they are working very hard on all of this, so. And the public needs to recognize this, I think, as well, and we are going to need to work all together to get through this. So thanks to my Cabinet colleagues and my Regular Member colleagues as well. I will support this supplementary appropriation when it comes forward. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I'll just have a couple kind of technical questions. I'm wondering if the Minister has any ability to put this kind of into how much we are spending per day or per week? I get you're asking well, it's $100 million total but, you know, if I had to wager a guess we've probably spent the vast majority of that in the last week or two. I'm just trying to get a sense of, you know, the pace at which we are spending. Is there any of that detail that could be provided? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I have a vague recollection, in fact, that well, I can certainly, firstly, confirm that, yes, a large proportion of the spending on fire suppression has, indeed, happened over the last, say, month, and in particular in the last couple of weeks. I had a number in my head, and I'm just trying to see if I can find where in my notes that was before throwing it out inappropriately. I think I will not do that since I can't seem to find it quickly. I'll turn it back to the Member but, Madam Chair, if I find it, I will I'll share it. It is it has been a significant amount. Perhaps, I'll put it this way: We were preparing for there to be a supplementary appropriation going into the what was to be the August session. The number in terms of what we were looking for is has just it has astronomically grown in the space of the couple of weeks before what would have been our August session to now. So I don't necessarily know if it was I was estimating it was at around $10 million a week, Madam Chair, and I'm getting some confirmation that my recollection might be accurate. There you go. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize this is an emergency sitting, and I am in support of this money. I don't think we're likely to vote down what is necessary fire suppression money but I think, you know, perhaps if we could get some details out to the public about, you know, how we're spending $10 million a week, and if that is the number, and if that's going to be the number for the next couple weeks as we forecasted, and I guess in terms of a question there, I'm just wondering if we have a high level breakdown of what exactly this is being spent on? Is the majority of this helicopters and aircraft, or is this a massive thing of overtime and labour? I mean, I know it's a combination of both but if we have any of those details of what our fire suppression budget looks like as a breakdown. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, Madam Chair, I don't have a detailed breakdown in a way that I think what I'm hearing is being asked for here. There are the costs, of course, for air tanker support, then there's the cost for the helicopter support, and then there's the cost for moving crews around. There are the fires that folks are watching that are impacting Fort Smith, Hay River, Kakisa, Jean Marie River, obviously Yellowknife, but there was also fires that were impacting all the way up the entire valley. This there's been an estimated 70 percent of the residents of the Northwest Territories who have had to evacuate their communities and, Madam Chair, there's been more than that who are under threat of evacuation. So it's been, you know, the fires that were being dealt with are all over. And just one last note on that, Madam Chair, I want to make a point, too, that it's not because we're necessarily actioning more fires. As of the end of July, only 32 percent of the fires had actually been actioned. The focus has been on trying to ensure, of course, areas where there are populations or residences or are other areas of infrastructure. So just to get a sense that there's been a real targeted effort to focus where the spending was taking place and, you know, then keeping in mind how many other fires are actually burning and what that is doing right now. Thank you.

Thank you. MLA for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I guess at this time I'm wondering if perhaps we could get a commitment of a detailed costing breakdown to be provided. I know, I believe in our capital infrastructure the GNWT is asking for 10s of million dollars for some new planes we were buying. There was some other I think there's about 50 million or there's 10s of millions for a fire centre. There's a lot of big other ticket items. Obviously going forward, we will probably adjust the fire suppression budget and perhaps have a date about or a debate about more, you know, prevention and more prescribed burning in communities. So I don't know if now is the time necessarily to get into all those details but this kind of $100-million season definitely cascades into some very large decisions that have to be made by this Assembly. So if we could get a detailed breakdown provided at a later date? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the timing is certainly rather challenging in that I don't know how much more this Assembly will necessarily have in terms of time or opportunity but certainly will commit that we will get a detailed breakdown. I know there is that information around; it's just that it's coming in from sources and it's changing as the costs go up and as the fires continue to be uncontrolled and therefore difficult to predict. But we'll get that to Members as quickly as we possibly can, and certainly if there is to be another sitting before this Assembly dissolves, I am conscious that we'll have that information available in advance so it's useful. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

No further questions on the appropriation. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And, Madam Chair, I know that the Member for Yellowknife North kind of alluded to some review of kind of this fire season and even the evacuation, and I know that that's something that will probably be discussed in detail in our September sitting, but can the Minister kind of indicate if that is an intent of the GNWT following this very huge fire season? Thank you. Both from the evacuation standpoint and also the fire suppression standpoint. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I missed literally the first few words of the Member from Kam Lake's question. If she could just repeat the beginning, I wasn't sure what if I could, please, just so I can answer more specifically. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake, can you repeat your question.

Absolutely, thank you. No, the Member for Yellowknife North alluded to doing a review of both this fire suppression season and also the evacuation, and I know that that's going to be a heavy topic probably in September if we do end up sitting in September but I'm wondering if there is any kind of commitment that could be made here today that that is work that will be done. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm never in a good position to make commitments that involve other departments. I'm fairly confident in saying that we can provide the information about the costing, both of the fire suppression this year as well as the evacuation response, including supports that have been put together very quickly over the last few days. What that will look like and whether, you know in terms of a sort of, quote/unquote, "review", that's where I'm hesitant in that there's typically some form of afteraction review that does take place and there's certainly the processes of the Assembly that exist. So, you know, in that sense I want to say yes. I just, again not entirely I'm wanting to ensure that what the Member envisions sees happening and what I'm able to commit to sort of here align. But, again, there's always reviews that take place of these processes. So thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake. I think we've lost MLA for Kam Lake. We'll keep her time, and then we'll move on until she can reconnect.

Member for Thebacha. Are you there, Member for Thebacha? Member for Hay River South?

Hello?

Thank you.

Oh, sorry. Sorry, we'll just just one moment, Mr. Simpson. Ms. Martselos?

Yes, Madam Chair.

Go ahead.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I too will be supporting this supplementary estimate of $75 million. First of all, I want to acknowledge that, you know, Fort Smith evacuees have been away now for two weeks from the community and, you know, being the first community that was evacuated, it was a lot of it was very much a learning experience on behalf of myself and a big bearing on the evacuees from Fort Smith because, you know, there was a lot of loopholes. And I just want to thank all the Cabinet and all the ordinary MLAs and all the bureaucrats that helped me navigate to ensure that the Fort Smith residents were looked after properly. It was it was a big experience and an experience that I will never forget.

I want to thank the first responders and everybody who helped and who are helping with the fire and all those that are in evacuation centres, you know, it's it's a big experience for not only our Indigenous but all residents of Fort Smith and the NWT with this kind of disaster.

My question is for Minister Wawzonek, and I just want to ask the question about the operational budget. $75 million from the operations budget, I would like to know how that's going to affect all the departments and how we're going to ensure that we are not going the ordinary Members and residents of the NWT and all residents of the NWT are not going to have a situation where they have to do without in some other area in order for us to ensure that things continue as usual, because the cost of living in the North is very high, and the residents of the NWT have been very patient even during this evacuation. And, you know, and we have to ensure that we continue the services as we know it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, MLA Martselos. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, we we've worked hard over the last four years, notwithstanding multiple forms of crisis and emergency, to go from starting off with a deficit situation to being at a point where we were announcing $178 million surplus, what feels like a very long time ago now, back in February. That surplus is all but wiped out right now. There might be some smidgy bit left of that. That's my technical term, Madam Chair. At this point, we're, you know, at $178 million while we're taking $75 million out, better part of, right now. There was the $35 million, you know, supplementary appropriations reserved that was mentioned earlier but that is largely eaten up right now. The low water season is causing serious cost pressures on NTPC. It is causing serious problems for MTS. We had a litany of problems before us, Madam Chair. So when we have to take that when we run out of the supplementary surplus that or the projected surplus that we have, then we need to start looking at taking on additional debt, which then comes with high costs of interest that I think everyone is familiar with. Government pays them too. And we have a significant growing deficit, and this will only add to that.

So all of this is to say, Madam Chair, I am very live to trying to balance the needs of fire suppression, the needs for an evacuation that maintains all of our essential needs for people accommodations, shelter, and the ability to return home and the fact that we are not in a position as we're still recovering to then be adding a burden of high costs on people. This is a complicated and difficult and unhappy topic. I share the Member's concern. The cost of living is high in the North and, at the same time, the needs in the North are very high. I don't know that this is the time for me to try to answer or unpack all of that. I simply want to acknowledge the complexities of it, the challenges of it, and that that's these are conversations that have been keeping a lot of people up at night for the last well, I was going to say the last week, but probably before that too. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The other question I want to ask also is about the capital budget. Is this going to affect the capital budget items that we are going to be discussing in September? I'm concerned, now that we have such a bad fire season, I want to make sure that, you know, the the new fire centre is still on the books because, you know, this is what happens, and if we ever lose that data that's in that in that old building in my community, we are in big trouble. And, you know, I'm saying this because it affects not only the community of Fort Smith, it affects the whole Northwest Territories, and I don't want to see an adjustment in the capital budget at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this is where the split between our operations and capital does get a bit not always very intuitive. So this supplementary appropriation is attached to the 20232024 year. That capital budget was already passed last fall. So that's this Fiscal Responsibility Policy and our efforts to maintain to be within that impact the capital budget that we're that, you know, we would have been acting upon this last construction season. What will come forward to the Assembly this coming fall will be the capital budget for 20242025. So these operational expenditures don't impact on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.