Debates of August 28, 2023 (day 161)

Ms. Martselos.

So I'm happy that the Premier had some commitments made from the Prime Minister regarding costs. I don't know what those commitments are in detail yet and the criteria that is required. But maybe, you know, I'm hoping she covers all the travel, the evacuation costs, hotels, financial assistance to residents. And you know what, and some of the suppression, because we don't have the infrastructure, like she said, and I'm very happy that she did that and made it very clear the lack of infrastructure in the Northwest Territories.

You know, many times we are forgotten because, you know, we're a small population, does that mean we're we should be less than any other jurisdiction in Canada? I don't think so. And so I would like to get more details, and I'm sure we'll get that when we have sittings in September. And with that, I just want to I'm not going to ask any questions any more questions but I want to thank everybody who helped in the evacuation of the residents of Fort Smith and the NWT because it was it was scary.

I've never gone through anything like that, and I can imagine what happens with Hay River. Three times evacuations is unprecedented. And, you know and we have to realize that climate change is an issue, and it's going to continue to be an issue.

And with that, I want to thank all the Cabinet, and I want to thank each and every person that helps with all the evacuation efforts. And I especially want to thank one personnel person from Fort Smith, a MACA person, and that's Bobby Bourque. He helped me through navigating all these little issues with hotels even though, you know, it was it was horrendous when we first came here. And everybody else. I want to thank the leaders of the community of Fort Smith, the Aboriginal leaders, both chiefs, and the Fort Smith Metis President Allan Heron, Chief Laviolette, and Chief Paulette, for their coordinated effect on making sure that everybody came out safe and looking after the people. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Thebacha. I'll return now to MLA for Kam Lake since we have her back.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My apologies for being cut off. My computer is hanging on by a thread these days. And I appreciate all of the questions that my colleagues have asked. I've had a lot of my questions answered, and I really appreciate the responses we've received as well.

One of the questions that I really want to focus in on is whether or not the efforts that have happened within municipalities are included in this $75 million as far as fire suppression is concerned. I mean, we saw in multiple communities, private industry really showing up for all of our communities and, you know, doing sprinkler systems, doing firebreaks, and stuff like that. And so I'm wondering if those are dollars that are being charged to municipalities, if they're included in this, if those are dollars that will eventually make it up to the GNWT level because those are dollars as well that our municipalities will not have been prepared for and will far exceed municipal budgets. So I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to how private industry is being paid for their part in this. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I have to say I'm not certain that will actually be within again, that breakdown, I realize more detailed line by line breakdown of what ECC has spent and where they need it to go. I do apologize, Madam Chair, but I will say it's been an unusual sort of ten days, particularly in and around the capital region, where fairly significant work was being undertaken around obviously a very significant geographic size of a community. So I have, you know, made some efforts here as I'm sitting here to try to gather that information remotely. If I can get it, I will try to convey that back to the Members. I can suggest, Madam Chair, that, you know, some will be. I just how much, I can't say for sure. If you suggest or prefer, Madam Chair, I could defer this to the Member or the Minister for Municipal and Community Affairs. I don't know that he's prepared detailed budgets, but he may at least be able to speak somewhat to the relationship. Thank you.

Minister Thompson. No, we can't hear you.

Can you hear me now?

Oh yes, we can hear you now.

Sorry, I feel like that commercial here. So in regards to the question, we know that some of the costs of the communities will be covered but some of the costs that if we actually take them, we wouldn't get a hundred percent reimbursement from the federal government. So we will be working with municipalities on certain costs and making sure that we submit that as part of our reimbursement submit that as part of our EFA aid application. Hopefully that answers some of the question. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Thompson. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And I appreciate that. And can the Minister then confirm that municipalities will not be on the hook for expenses related to this forest firefighting effort or this wildfire fighting effort. My concern is that the cost of living in the territory is already incredibly high and that municipalities bearing the brunt of these costs will, in turn, actually just be passed on to residents through the form of taxes. And so I just want to make sure that we have a common understanding that these are not expenses that will be incurred and expected to be paid for by municipalities. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, I don't think we're going to be in a position to confirm that every last penny is going to be paid by the GNWT. The idea and I mean, the cost of living is very high, and the GNWT is the government that provides a lot of the public provisions of services across the Northwest Territories and in all communities and provides funding to all communities. And I know there's a constant tension and a desire to see that funding formula perhaps changed or increased but, fundamentally, I mean, there was a question earlier as to what the GNWT's going to be doing to pay for this in the face of a, you know, $75 million budget now for fire suppression and calls for increases to the amounts we're spending in the evacuation response, which is going to be in the 10s of millions of dollars already. We also don't have that money necessarily sitting anywhere. We are trying very hard to make our evacuation emergency response one that we can see some reimbursement from the federal government. We have no guarantees that we'll get any of it back. I suspect that we'll get some of it back. I don't know how much. And until we get it from the federal government, we cash flow it. And if we don't have it, it means we take on debt to pay for it. So everything impacts residents in the Northwest Territories. That is constantly the balance of trying to ensure that we are doing our best to provide essential services to everybody without seeing any increases of taxes and without seeing any reductions of services. It is a fine balance. I've realized the community governments can't take on debt. That makes it even harder for them. I'm aware of that. But, you know, again, as to how much, if any, they will need to bear in terms of those costs, it is probably too early to say. I don't know that the city necessarily has and I'm speaking particularly about Yellowknife where I know there's been a significant undertaking, but other communities too have had some significant undertakings this fire season. So until we get a full accounting of what each community has spent, looking at what we are now then maybe more likely to see come in from the federal government and, again, I want to believe, given the conversations that have been had, something will come. It is not it's just too difficult for me to say what we might get from the feds, what individual communities have spent, and what the GNWT's then able to necessarily bear. I do want to I gave the long answer because I want to assure the Member that all of those things are under consideration. We're aware of them and, again, I know that the communities it's been a topic, it has been a priority of this Assembly for four years to ensure that communities are supported. So that priority hasn't gone anywhere. I just don't quite know how it will turn out at the end of this fire season. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Does the Member for Kam Lake have a short last question and a short last answer?

Yes, I'm wondering if the Minister can make a commitment, then, to keep Members on this side aware of what the GNWT will be requesting for reimbursement on when it comes to municipalities and what they're expecting municipalities to bear on their own when it comes to that cost breakdown just so that we have all the information and we're not finding out down the road that there was an expectation that a municipality take on a large chunk of this, so. But that's my last question. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, certainly, I mean, all financial pieces do ultimately go through the Legislative Assembly, whether it's through the supplementary appropriation process, whether it's through the actual budgeting process that does take place annually in terms of understanding where our contribution dollars are going. So certainly those two processes alone, of course, will continue to take place and, you know, beyond that, again, this is where we get into some challenge of the timing where I presume that we'll be getting some of this information perhaps even when this particular Assembly is no longer together. So, you know, look, I've heard the request to get that accounting between what a community's spent, what is the GNWT spending, and what are we able to support. I've heard it, and I know the Minister responsible for emergencies has heard it as well. So I believe that it's always been our effort to try to maintain sharing. I would certainly say that it would be I will try to make sure that I'm doing that. I can point to the example of the spending we've done on the floods over the last two years and the reporting we've done to Members in that regard, I believe monthly, if not quarterly, about what has been spent and updates on that. So with that as being a common example, I would say that would be fine. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Member for Yellowknife North had asked for a high-level breakdown of costs. And I'd like to see that include what went out to local, regional, territorial, and businesses outside the NWT as well because this is something is this something, I guess, that the Minister can be provided? Because firefighting, really, in when we look at it is beneficial to part of our local and regional and territorial economy, and I think that, you know, when we're looking at it as much as, you know, we you know, we don't want to see fires because of the destruction they can cause but it does benefit our economy, and I just want to make sure that we have the numbers there to show that we did everything we could to ensure that local businesses and the businesses of Northwest Territories were given first chance at and the first opportunity in providing services. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we certainly can. There is a contracts report that does get prepared every year. Procurement does manage and monitor and ultimately will be able to sort of collate, if you will, all of the spending. Certainly, in emergency times, that spending wouldn't necessarily follow a more formal procurement process, but sometimes it does too. All of which is to say those types of reports are prepared regularly, and I can see that there being one prepared that is specific to the wildfire season. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Of the $75 million ask, I guess, will a portion or what portion of it will be used to offset the costs incurred by local governments, you know, as of today because most of the you know, most of our local fire departments are volunteers but they are using local personnel, they are volunteers there, they are using local equipment and infrastructure as well. So, again, like Ms. Cleveland said, is that, you know, we got to make sure that, you know, their costs are covered as well because this is going to, you know, set us this whole fire season is going to set the NWT back a bit here. So if she can if the Minister can answer that. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this $75 million is going to the Department of Environment and Climate Change. They are the lead, and this to supplement their existing budget of roughly $21.8 or so million. So this is to supplement that budget. That's a base budget that they have annually for wildfire suppression. I don't know exactly what proportion of that necessarily flows directly to a community or to community government or to individual contractors, nor can I say at this point whether the shortfall is going to proportionate to that or not. We would we have been doing variances in terms of what is being spent within that area of funding but not necessarily a detailed breakdown. So as I've said, we can repair ultimately we do prepare annual contracting reports and can ensure that there is one that is specific to the wildfire season. That might take a bit of time. We are sadly still in the wildfire season right now. It's out of control with fires burning in multiple locations. As for, again, what will go to individual municipalities, you know, as I said to the Member from Yellowknife earlier, it you know, I don't yet know from the municipalities themselves what they have spent. So there's still a bit of work to be done, and but as this comes in, we'll certainly I can certainly commit that we'll be doing an effort to make that contracting and reporting available. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I appreciate the answer and I'm, you know, pleased to hear, I guess, you know, that the local governments and municipalities are on the radar of this government for some form of reimbursement or assistance as well. But, you know, the cost of firefighting or the cost of fighting these wildfires, we know, they take a toll not only on this government, but the people of the NWT as well, to the point that I'm hearing now that some of our residents will not return.

The Minister also stated that the Premier discussed costs with the Prime Minister. Can she confirm if there was any commitment from the federal government to cover some of the costs associated with this fire season, or do they point to our agreement with them and say it is our responsibility? I guess the reason I ask this is that, you know, if we're bearing the brunt of it or all of it, it's going to impact future spending by all departments, you know, in probably the next, you know, into the next Assembly and beyond. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that does seem to be directed at the Premier. I'd like to suggest that she address that. Thank you.

Madam Premier.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I did have conversations with the Prime Minister. There are things he's looking to do. He's looking to, of course, fast track the employment insurance so please get that word out there. Looking at not making the normal provisions for EI. That will help a lot.

As for the commitment for extra money, he did talk about being able to advance the disaster assistance program, but he also mentioned that there's I mean, that he'll look at it. There was no firm commitment because he also talked about ensuring the fairness for all jurisdictions. I kind of tried to debate that a little bit but, again, I understand his position. If he opens it up, then he has every jurisdiction that's facing fires asking for the same amount. And I believe all MLAs have gotten a copy of the things that are covered currently within the disaster assistance program and things that aren't. So no firm commitments. A willingness to look at it but a statement from the Prime Minister that if he opens this for one, he's got to look at it for all.

He did also commit, and I think that's public knowledge, that the federal government will be working with jurisdictions to review the disaster assistance program, which hasn't been reviewed in a long time. But, again, I'm not seeing that that'll happen in the short term. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a comment, I guess. You know, I look at this jurisdiction that we're in. You know, we're limited to, you know, revenue raise or raising ourselves. We count on the federal government for a big majority of the funding that we do have. And, you know, when we have disasters such as this, and multiple ones like in Hay River, over, you know, over 15 months, you know, it takes it takes a real financial impact on the territory. It takes it on the government. It takes on you know, on individual businesses and everything. And I think that, you know, when the federal government, you know, says that, you know, they want to make sure that everything's fair and equitable, well, you know, I got a problem with that. But the problem is is that the territories is different. You know, we're we've got a large large area, and we need we need this government to step up and pressure and continue pressuring the federal government to ensure that we have the funds that we need to, you know, to cover these costs and any future disasters as well in order that we can actually, you know, continue to build build an economy, build infrastructure in the territories and create a you know, a good health care system and education system because, you know, if we're spending all our money on disasters, we're going to be in trouble. So, just a comment. Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Member for Monfwi.

Yes.

Go ahead, yes.

Okay. I just wanted to ask the Minister that, well, I do sympathize with evacuees, Behchoko and Wekweeti were also evacuated back in or in July, and I do recognize the hard work of the forest firefighters and first responders. According to the report, over 2 million hectares of land was burned. So I just wanted to ask the Minister, do we have an estimate of how much money is spent in the region as per to the forest fire? I know Behchoko and Wekweeti are part of the North Slave region. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, at this point, no, I don't have the breakdown of environment and climate change's budget by region. I just have the again, the fact that they are projecting a total shortfall of $75 million. I anticipate, Madam Chair, that this may be complicated by region in that the fires are not necessarily staying in each region. So, you know, there's fires that are burning across communities. So I guess we'll have to see to what extent certainly, they're burning across and structurally across multiple constituencies. As how much they are sticking to within the regions, I again, I would have to pull out a map and see if we're even able to break that down. I know that there's been an effort, Madam Chair, to ensure that fire crews are being moved around efficiently and so that too may make some of the breakdown more complicated. But, again, as I've said we'll certainly be providing a contracts report of the wildfire season as well as can try to do a breakdown of what gets spent over time, much as we have for the last couple years with the flood response. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that North and South Slave are you know, we see more of our land burn and I know Sahtu and Inuvik region also experienced the same thing, but I was just you know, I just wanted to know about, you know, how much money was spent. But I think it's pretty obvious that North and South Slave went through the worst. But I just wanted to ask the Minister that if there's an estimate cost for the evacuation. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Madam Chair, I do have some estimated costs at this point. I know I had an opportunity to meet with several of the Members last week and was provided some of those costs to them. I don't have that necessarily at my fingertips now in that I was planning to focus the discussion today on the fire response and not on the various evacuation costs. Again, that I do expect, as I said earlier, that we will certainly be facing a supplementary appropriation, probably in the Department of Finance, which is where some of the added amounts are, but quite possibly for the Municipal and Community Affairs that is the leader of the EMO, that there will be costs also therefore drawing down on as well. As I said, probably were already used up by operations surplus but then so adding to our adding some shortterm debt to us in order to provide for the massive level of evacuations we've experienced. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Yes, thank you. Yeah, no. Well, it's good that, you know, I'm sure that she's going to share the information with us once the information is available for the evacuations. So I don't have any more question. Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. I'd first like to sympathize with all the residents of the Northwest Territories that were uprooted from their communities, their homes, and their communities and who are all down south, and many who are still struggling because of the lack of supports, financial supports from our government. And it's fair enough that, you know, we're hearing that we don't have the financial resources to cover everyone. My colleague from Hay River South, you know, mentioned, you know, some significant amounts, and I feel that it's only fair for our residents for the, you know, amount of time that they have been evacuated.

I also want to express my deepest sympathies to the community in my riding, Enterprise, for the devastation that they faced and the loss of homes and businesses. I think my big concern there is the lead time leading up to the fire because they were in the middle of a festival that weekend, Friday, Saturday, and then Sunday they were they were out. I believe the department had advance knowledge of that fire and it wasn't relayed to anyone, not even to me, not even to the residents of Enterprise. I know it was the high winds that escalated the fires towards the community. I don't believe there were any fire crews there, I'm just assuming and from what I'm hearing, and they weren't very noticeable in the community even after because of the flareups that were happening within and there was some residents taking it upon themselves to fight those flareups in the community. You know, I feel for those people that lost, you know, their homes, their businesses, they oh my God, it's devastating. And that's a big concern, is it was known and I'm pretty sure, you know, I would really like the Enterprise fire situation really looked at, investigated. You know, how did we let that happen?

In the past, we had people that manned the fire towers. And ENR at that time, they did away with them saying that well, we got satellites. So I'm just wondering if you with see stuff like that on cloudy days and, you know, would a tower person have helped before the fire even got to Enterprise? I think that'll haunt me for, you know, for the rest of my life, what happened. Where were the crews? Why was no advance warning given? Madam Chair, this is relevant to the budget because I just wonder if the Minister of ECC could possibly answer that question. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. I will put it to the Minister of Finance, and she can redirect it if thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I know that some latitude is being given here to try to recognize that we are in a difficult position today. I know that many members of the public are likely watching today and from places all across western Canada at this point. Madam Chair, this I am trying to answer some questions that are not directly on the supplementary appropriation but that are at least related to the costs associated or costs that might be associated with amount. Madam Chair, the very specific details of firefighting efforts are really not something that I think we're in a position to answer to today. I'm deeply I mean, we were all, I think, affected by watching one of the communities of the Northwest Territories be so decimated by a wildfire and at the same time one of the communities being so urgently well, multiple communities being then so urgently removed.

Madam Chair, I heard it described to me when that fire moved almost 40 kilometres in a day, senior members of the firefighting team describe it as a nightmare, and they were outright shell shocked. So this is not to say that there's not people who are experts who are over at ECC and with our fire teams who are not equally affected. Madam Chair, I think beyond that, I don't I'm not going to move it over to the Member or to the Minister only because, again, there should be a fulsome discussion, there should be full opportunity for question and debate, and right now the context is around the costs of the fires and not some of the other choices that were made. There will be an opportunity for that. I know people will be frustrated that this is not today, but today is really about making sure that those firefighters who are still fighting those fires have the resources to do so. Thank you.