Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I did want to know I'm glad I have the chance, there was a working group, it actually does have a new name now, it's the Northwest Territories Housing Forum. And I'm not sure whether or not terms of reference can be shared. Obviously, we'd be only one seat at that table but let me make that inquiry. And perhaps that, again, also can demonstrate the level of commitment between all the parties at that forum and what they're attempting to do at that forum. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I do hope that there will be some transparency with this group. I think that if there is a hesitancy to share and to allow MLAs to have a part in this, I think the Cabinet and Minister could be pointing back to the good work that's been done through the Forest Act and really a collaborative effort. And that's where we should be moving with all of our work between that we do in this House, is to have that triangle piece that we often hear about where it is actually meaningfully done, not where Cabinet sits as the go between between the two and filters the information back and forth. I think a fulsome conversation with all three groups would be worthwhile.
I just want to note that on my last comment is that this department, I think, really needs to get their communications under control, and I would suggest that they actually hire somebody that can facilitate these conversations, and not this person that we ended up with that was supposed administer all these projects that was just one employee, again, situated in headquarters. They need to have people elders, Indigenous leaders in communities employed by them to be the facilitator and gobetween between the housing clients who are traumatized and the LHOs and the LHAs because they are not operating in a traumainformed way. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Are there any further questions or comments from committee? Seeing no further questions oh, Member for Monfwi.
Okay, I see here there's major retrofit, two units for public housing. There's two in Behchoko and one in Whati. And I said this morning too that, you know, in all the Northwest Territories, I know there's housing crisis and even in Behchoko alone, we have a housing crisis where I have there's a family there is a family, there's it's not just this family but there are other family, but this one has seven kids. Seven children, age ranging from 13 years old to one years old that are homeless in my community. And we have lots of housing that need retrofit too as well. There's some houses that have been boarded up for over ten years. And I just want to ask the Minister or, you know, the housing, I know she is the Finance minister, but what is the housing doing to try to eliminate homelessness in small communities? It's not just my communities. There are other communities as well. And we do have one homeless shelter and it's I mean, we do have it's we do need more houses to accommodate the homeless because this homeless shelter that we have, it's being used a lot by the communities and sometimes when it's full, what some of the we notice that homeless population do is that they go to jail. They go to the RCMP local station so that they can have a safe place to sleep. I mean, this is, like, two retrofit and one in Whati. Whati also has the same problem as well. We do have a lot of family in that community that are waiting for housing. And for Tlicho region, with over 2,000 population I'm just saying over 2,000. Behchoko is a little bit over 2,000 and Whati is, like, close to 600 now since the road opened, allseason road. But we do need more housing. So I just wanted to know what is this government trying what is this government doing? Can they commit to build more houses to accommodate and to eliminate the homelessness? I know it was the Premier's portfolio before to you know, it was the housing issues it was the housing responsibility but now it got transferred to Premier's office. So I just wanted to ask the Minister what are they doing, are they going to be building more houses any time soon? This one is for 20242025, that it's going to be completed in both communities. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I have both the 20232024 and 20242025 plans in front of me. The 20232024 still does stretch into the coming few months before the turnover of the fiscal year. There are five new public housing units going into Behchoko under the current fiscal year, and that is being done through the Tlicho Infrastructure Agreement. And then there were other additional major retrofits, both to Behchoko as well as to Whati, two different units two units going into Whati, again under the current fiscal year. Then we get into the present year and that's where it is retrofits, not new units but, again, I know that some of those units, as we detailed earlier, are currently vacant. I don't know if the vacancy rates are in the Behchoko and Whati units or elsewhere but that may well be.
More broadly speaking, though, Madam Chair, the question with respect to the homelessness strategy, that did go to EIA and to the Premier's office. Obviously, I think we're reflective as I think the Premier has said, reflective of the importance and placed upon that strategy and placed upon resolving and reaching a place where there can be a place where there's not functionally or that functionally that we past homelessness. So obviously that reflects the importance of it. It does need to continue to be implemented. It's only a few months old. You know, there's a lot in there with everything at the spectrum of housing from homelessness to transitional housing to folks who may be looking to move up. So I'm not in a position here at the capital planning table to speak to the homelessness strategy but there's still a few days left to ask questions certainly to all my colleagues about the status of the homelessness strategy and the implementation of that strategy will take more than a few months. It will take a lot of time. And as you will all recall, we, in the course of our main estimates, actually were able to put money to that homelessness strategy so that it's more than just a plan. It is actually a plan with some dollars attached to it. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi, did you have any followup questions?
Yes, thank you. Yes, there's 165 units that's being retrofitted, and three in Tlicho region and with highest population of all the small or of the Indigenous communities. I mean, that is a shame because it's really sad that, you know, some of our homeless populations, when that warming shelter is at its capacity, that they walk over to the RCMP station and check themselves in. I mean, that's wrong. You know, like, I mean it is sad. It's really sad. I don't like that. So I just yeah, and I know that she did say that there is some this current or this past current fiscal year, but there were some houses that were supposed to be there were some houses new houses that were allocated in Behchoko and in Whati as well, but we haven't seen any of those houses. When are those houses going to be in the communities for families to move in because there are like, with this family of seven kids, there are some others with children that are still waiting. And Minister has my email of all those that I submitted within the last two/three weeks that families are waiting for housing. And winter is coming, and we have nothing. And that is a shame that, you know, that we're not doing enough. And there are some units that housing has, 14 units, that Tlicho would like to take over so they can help with the homelessness too. And that nobody they're not even going they don't want to transfer those units to Tlicho government as well. So it would have it would have helped with the homelessness issues too. Now we're you know, like, I mean, we have no housing. We have lots of housing that are boarded up, that's been boarded up some of them for over ten years. And I don't know why it's still there if they're not going to fix if they're not going to fix it, give it away. And that's what we been saying for quite some time. And it's the housing is slow at giving those units away to some people. Thank you.
Thank you. Are there any further comments? Questions? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess as I sit here and I listen to, you know, the comments and the answers from the Minister is that, you know, there's no doubt that you know, there's no doubt that we need housing. And it seems like the only game in town is the housing corporation and I think that's you know, it's a good approach but I think we have to expand that, and we you know, we talk about it you know, we talk about Indigenous governments. I don't see them in front of us to tell me personally what they're doing to increase housing stock. You know, we've got to tie housing into economic development. When we're looking at when we're looking at providing land and resources to companies or maybe part of the component should be providing housing to communities, to communities where they're getting workers from. You know, those are the we've got to look outside the box and find other ways to do it.
The other thing we've got to do is jobs. You know, we've got to be able to if we can provide jobs to people, that's another way to do it. We can you know, we can assist people and make it you know, buying their own homes. I don't really care how people get their homes. We just need them to get it, and we have to look outside the box. I don't you know what, I understand housing has a role to play here and, you know, we have you know, and they have HELP units that are that go sit empty for you know, for months or years. We realize that. Our utilization rate for public housing units should be near a 100 percent all the time. If we're doing retrofits, we should be doing them quickly. And we should be using local and northern contractors to do it. But those are the type of things we have to do. But, again, this is you know, we're caught up in bureaucracy and government is slow. We know that. So we've got to find other ways to do it. You know, I realize government has, you know, to do something. And then we've got the federal government on the other hand. You know, we're counting on them to provide us the money. You know, that's where the money comes from at the end of the day. So we've got to you know, we've got to kind of look at everything and we it's always the same story, you know, housing is not doing this, or housing is you know, houses are sitting empty and all this. We've been preaching that for four years and other guys been other people have been preaching that before that. So, you know, I'm kind of getting tired of it, and we have to do something different. And this next government has to do it. We're not going to do it in this next week, I tell you that. So somebody has to do it, and whoever is in here for the next government, I hope that they take a look at other approaches because that's what it's going to take. It's not going to take just this government doing it.
You know, to me, you know, if it's looked after in the communities you know, I feel the Indigenous governments could probably build houses and I know they build houses and provide housing a lot faster than we can do it sometimes. So, you know, it's just a comment that I want to make because we're not going to we're not going to solve this problem. We're not going to build a house for every person in the Northwest Territories even though we'd like to. You know, some people are going to have to buy their own. You know, maybe we can get, like I said, resource companies, you know, when they come in here and extract resources to help buy houses. And the federal government will provide us money so we can provide houses. But everybody has to do their part and, you know and that's the way at least that's the way I see it, so. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Seeing that there are no other Members who I have on my list, I remind the committee that the estimates for Housing Northwest Territories are included in the capital estimates as information item only. The committee will not be voting on the activity total. Seeing no further questions, please return to the Housing Northwest Territories summary on page 75. Are there any further questions or comments from committee? Seeing no further questions.
Does committee agree that consideration of Housing Northwest Territories is now complete?
Agreed.
Thank you. Sergeantatarms, you can escort the witnesses from the Chamber.
Does committee agree that you've concluded consideration of Tabled Document 97319(2), 20242025 Capital Estimates?
Agreed.
Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Madam Chair, I move that this committee defer further consideration of Tabled Document 97319(2), 20242025 Capital Estimates, at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion?
Question.
Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
Carried
Thank you, committee, and thank you, Minister. We're going to take a tenminute break, and then we are going to come back because we have our supplementary appropriations. Yes, we're going to take a tenminute break, and then we've got you guys all want to talk on it? Then we'll be here longer. Unless you want to do a team talk and have one team talker.
SHORT RECESS
Calling Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 97419(2), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 3, 20232024. Does the Minister of Finance have any opening remarks?
Thank you. Yes, I do, Madam Chair. I am here to present Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 3, 20232024. These supplementary estimates propose a total increase of $120 million to the shortterm borrowing authorization limit. The primary purpose of this increase is to address and respond to the unforeseen emergency costs as a result of wildfire activity this year.
That concludes my opening remarks. I am happy to answer questions, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the Chamber?
Sergeantatarms, please escort the witness to the Chamber.
Would the Minister please introduce her witnesses.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So on my left, deputy minister of finance Bill MacKay and, on my right, Julie Mujcin is the comptroller general.
Welcome. Members, can we forego general comments?
Agreed.
Does the committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?
Agreed.
Committee, we will begin on page 2 with the Department of Finance.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 3, 20232024, Department of Finance, revised borrowing authorization, $120 million. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, do you agree that you have concluded consideration of Tabled Document 97419(2)? Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so I'm wondering if the Minister can explain in greater detail why we have a need for like, this is different than our normal sups that we get. Normally when we get a sup, it's to pay for something. And this one here, it expands our increases our borrowing limit, and so I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to, in more detail for the public, what that is, why it's needed, and then I'll have more questions after that, please, as a start. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, when the main estimates are tabled, the focus of the attention generally is predominantly on the ability or the authority to spend the money that we have in that budget. But another item that's in there, and it certainly does get some attention although perhaps not quite as much, is the sheet that includes the authority to borrow. And it's that number now that we're looking to have amended by way of this supplementary appropriation.
So you have the authority to spend, which is the department by department budget lines that we all look at and that are as you typically see as a supplementary appropriation. If a department, for example ECC, needs additional money to support their wildfire fighting efforts, that goes in as their ability or authority to spend. However, in order for the government to actually spend money, they have to have the cash on hand. The timing on when we have cash on hand depends on a few things.
It depends, for example, on the timing of receiving taxation revenues and, in particular, the timing of receiving revenues from the federal government, which I think most folks are aware that is the dominant amount of our budget in revenues does come from one form or another of federal transfer. We don't necessarily get those as one lump sum. We get the territorial formula of financing as a lump sum, but the rest does come in over the course of the year at different times. And at present, because of the significant outlay of additional cash over the course of this summer, significantly because of the wildfires but certainly not exclusively, there's been the low water levels have also resulted in a higher expenditures, all of those things combined put us into a situation where we are concerned that, particularly with an election and the scheduling changes around when the Assembly's sitting, we were expecting that there's a reasonable possibility of running into a state where the government won't be able to pay with cash without increasing the shortterm borrowing. So the shortterm borrowing just gives that ability of flexibility to increase the amount of cash available to us if needed. And let me stop there so that the clock doesn't run down further. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Yeah, thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, and I know that this has been a very difficult Assembly and, as such, that's reflected, I suppose, in the requests for increases to the borrowing limit. And so in the life of this Assembly, this is our third now request for increases to the borrowing limit, and I'm wondering what is this government going to do in order for us to see, or for the next Assembly to see, more money in surpluses and to be able to kind of be a little bit more prepared for additional dollars in emergencies because we know that we're going to see more in the years to come. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So let me first start with respect to the idea of there being about the borrowing limit, because that is a term that generally is associated to the federallyimposed borrowing limit of $1.8 billion. This is different. So we're not seeking any change to the federallyimposed borrowing limit and, in fact, what we did when we changed the Fiscal Responsibility Policy is rather than kind of you would see over the course of many years, and long before this current government, you know, the Assembly would see sort of creep up towards whatever that federallyimposed borrowing limit might be and then see the federallyimposed limit go up. With the current or the most recent changes to the FRP, what we've imposed is our own internal limit to say that if we hit that line that we will at that point you know, we are obligating ourselves to take steps to engage the federal government and discuss where we're at in that borrowing limit. We are not at that internal line. We are coming up to that line, but we are not at the line. We've kept ourselves under it intentionally. We're hoping, again, to not even need to borrow what is here, but we certainly want to not be in a position of having to come back at the very beginning of the 20th Assembly with a group of new Members and to have to go through this process. We want to have this cushion now to be able to get through to the next properly constituted Assembly and sitting of that Assembly.
Now, the second part of the question being around, you know, what are we doing longer term in the fiscal update, Madam Chair.
I spoke to the medium-term outlook. The medium-term outlook, of course, is you know, as we said, does still provide us stability and does bring us back to a point where we actually create further room between our total debt and the borrowing limit. The current year was particularly significant. Last year, there were also some fairly significant cash outlays because of the summer wildfire and floods. This year was just particularly extraordinary. So, you know, again, I can't predict in the future what next summer might be. Certainly hopeful that it will not be anywhere on the scale of present. And if that's the case, then we are projecting ongoing operating surpluses and then not requiring any further adjustments to the borrowing plan beyond what would be in the main estimates of next year. The question is whether and when to pay down total debt, and if that's something that the Government of the Northwest Territories does want to prioritize is probably a discussion for the 20th Assembly at this point. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The Minister spoke briefly to conversations with the federal government, and I'm wondering if some conversations with the federal government are occurring and hopefully gaining some success in giving us some advanced payments on some of the dollars that we've spent that they know that they're going to be reimbursing us down the road. I know that it sometimes takes years for those payments to catch up. And are these conversations progressing, and would those dollars actually help this situation that we find ourselves in now so that our purse strings aren't quite so tight? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. First, apologies to the translators. I think I'm speaking quickly.
Yes, so the short answer is most definitely there have been conversations with the federal government, including from the Premier's office but also from other Ministers' offices, including in particular ECC as our EMO lead, and their counterpart at public safety. The federal government is aware of the challenges created by this huge outlay of cash without an advance on what will otherwise be at least some amount of funding coming from the federal government to help offset those costs. The trick is I don't know when and although the response has been positive and, really, the federal government invited us to put in a request for an advance. So that, I would suggest, indicates that they are well aware that we need it and that we need it to happen quickly.
For 2022's flood season, we received a 50 percent advance, but we only got it in this fiscal year. So, again, you know, we are quite hopeful right now and, you know, optimistic that we will see an advance on the current wildfire season in this fiscal year, but I would be remiss in this role to say that's good enough and we'll see what happens. So that is why we are before the Assembly saying that the borrowing authorization, that's what gives us the appropriate cushion and legal authority to borrow short term if we need so that we can pay venders and pay staff and pay our bills in cash. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to without the approval of the supplementary appropriation and the increase to shortterm borrowing limit will the GNWT be in compliance with the FAA? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, it would depend. And it would depend, again, if I mean, and, really, there are other steps that we could take to ensure that we remain in compliance. If the advance from the federal government were to come in, if other anticipated transfer amounts come in, and that offsets, you know, the outlays of cash that are going out by bringing in more, then we may not find ourselves in as difficult a position. Right now, that's our projection is that over the course of this fall, we will need something extra and if we didn't have that something extra then, yes, we wind up if we take on more borrowing not authorized by the Appropriations Act, then that puts out of compliance.
To avoid going out of compliance, we could simply stop spending, which means putting holds on our payments and, you know, or other project delays, which is also not a situation that we want to find ourselves in. Thank you.
