Thank you, committee. We've concluded consideration of Committee Report 5519(2), Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on Bill 85: United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Implementation Act.
Committee, we've agreed to consider Bill 85, United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Implementation Act. I will ask the Premier, the Minister responsible for the Executive and Indigenous Affairs, to introduce the bill. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am here to introduce Bill 85, United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Implementation Act.
This bill represents an important step forward in advancing one of the priorities of the 19th Legislative Assembly tabled in October 2019 which directed this government to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
The drafting of this legislation has been done with Indigenous governments in a way that respects their diverse needs and priorities. This is consistent with the requirements on the GNWT set out in the United Nations Declaration when undertaking implementation. The collaborative development of the legislation, as well as the requirement in Bill 85 to collaboratively develop an action plan, is just a first step. This legislation will be yet another tool we have to formalize an ongoing relationship between the Government of the Northwest Territories and Indigenous governments to support the longterm work of implementing the United Nations Declaration in the Northwest Territories.
This government has taken significant steps forward to be inclusive. Among them, our codevelopment of legislation through the Intergovernmental Council and the inception of the Northwest Territories Council of Leaders have not only been resounding successes here, but are also being watched by other provinces and territories who are keen to learn from our progress and adapt our lessons into their own systems. Within this context, our consensus system includes distinct roles for Regular MLAs and for the executive. Among them, the executive works directly with Indigenous or other governments to advance shared priorities while Regular MLAs have the power and responsibility to debate, amend, and pass laws. Both functions are necessary to a healthy public government, and it is crucially important that the separation of these branches, consistent across all public governments in Canada, is respected in the way we implement the United Nations Declaration in the Northwest Territories.
I want to thank the Standing Committee on Government Operations for the opportunity to review the bill in detail on September 20th. It was helpful to provide some insight on the bill and receive clarity on the proposed amendments.
Madam Chair, we have much work ahead of us. We've gotten this far by working together, and we'll continue to do so as we advance the goal we have set for ourselves to implement the United Nations Declaration in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair. That concludes my opening remarks.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Would you like to bring witnesses into the Chamber?
Yes, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Sergeantatarms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.
Madam Premier, would you introduce your witnesses for the record.
Thank you, Madam Chair. On my right, I have Mr. Martin Goldney, the deputy minister of executive and Indigenous affairs. On my left is AnneMarie Guedon, the manager of Indigenous affairs. And, in fact, on the right behind me is Christina Duffy who is the legislative drafter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. And welcome. I'll turn to the chair of Standing Committee on Government Operations, the committee that reviewed the bill, for any opening comments on Bill 85. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I just will make some general comments on my thoughts. I think we as the government are in a pretty good place in implementing UNDRIP. We have a bill here before us today which is, you know, essentially identical to the ones passed by the federal government and British Columbia with a few minor tweaks. You know, there was a bit of a debate whether we should have done this earlier in the Assembly or a bit of a debate whether we should not have done it at all. I think, you know, getting it done within the life of this Assembly, considering it's a bill that you know, the reality is that it doesn't really accomplish anything. It's a plan to create a plan.
The real details are in the government's action plan that is to come. But I want to commend the government and the Premier for all of the work on getting agreement with Indigenous governments. Even after, you know, the MOU was signed and the bill was tabled, I note that the Premier went out and her staff went out, and Salt River and IRC have now signed onto the MOU. So, you know, there's still hope that we could eventually get everyone to the table, which is really what the goal of, I think, this government has been, and the Premier's goal has been, with the Council of Leaders and other similar bodies.
I look forward to following the work of the action plan committee and seeing, you know, what we really can do. We've now seen a federal version of the action plan. We've seen what BC has done. We've seen some of their failings. And I think there's an opportunity yes, for us to go well beyond what they're doing, get it right, and be true leaders in implementing UNDRIP.
I would like to thank everyone for their work in committee, thank all of the communities we visited, and all of the people who provided submissions. This work is just getting started. It will make many more years to come but I do think it is a moment to be proud of. And I am happy that, you know, despite perhaps some hesitancy, we got it done in the life of this Assembly. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. I will now open the floor to general comments on Bill 85. Are there any general comments? Member for Deh Cho.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. I want to express a few concerns I have with this bill. I know at the outset when UNDRIP was being discussed, for quite some time, even in 2019, I think there was high hopes that it would be implemented by all levels of government across the country which would give a lot of autonomy to Indigenous governments. That's what I saw then. But then being in this government or not the government, I should clarify that.
Seeing the actions of this government and how they deal with First Nations governments in the Northwest Territories, I sense that there's lots of disrespect when dealing with First Nations that haven't settled their selfgovernment agreements. And what I see happening leading up to this was I think it was the year 2014, the devolution agreement and the creation of the Intergovernmental Council. When the creation was there, what was dangled in front of everybody was money. I mean, large chunks of cash. Some were getting, you know, $200,000 or $300,000. And they all signed on the dotted line.
The unity that the Dene people had, Indigenous organizations had, was broken at that point. It was all because of money. Prior to that, all First Nations within the territories were unified. It was one nation, and that was witnessed through the birth of the Indian Brotherhood of the Northwest Territories which brought all First Nations groups together. And that included the Metis. It went on to create the Dene Nation. Because of some dispute and some wanting to settle their claims, the comprehensive claims agreements, there was splintered groups, and everybody went on their own. But I wanted to express that the DFN, the Deh Cho First Nations, is not at the IGC table. They are still currently in negotiations which have been stalled for quite some time. And they are working on their own lands and resources and that's the big sticking point in any negotiations.
The Dene Nation, in the summer of 2022, the Wiilideh site, voted down the UNDRIP because they needed more clarity and a lot of it was the stickler with article 46.
I can't explain that article 46 very well. I think I would need a lawyer to really decipher and disseminate all that for me. I think I've asked the Premier's office to, but I wasn't getting any answers there.
You know, I'm just wondering what the rush is to implement this when all First Nations are not on board. There was no, you know, going out to the communities to talk to all First Nations, even at the Assemblies, which is the important part where everybody where the Premier and her party should have been at the Assemblies. They were never there. Never. Not at any of these Assemblies. That's, you know, a shame that that didn't come to fruition. When you're going to bring about something that's highly important, if you figure it's highly important for the First Nations, you're controlling them, you should have been there. You weren't at that Dene Nation meeting.
And I'm just wondering, you know, you always operate on critical mass. It's majority votes that you get. That's all you operate on. And I'm not even sure if we even looked at what are the ramifications to the GNWT legislation and financial resources. There's concerns there. You know, it's good to move on this, all right, but, you know, there are there wasn't a lot of informed and meaningful dialogue, meaningful consultation. I think there's federal legislation in that regard. There was nothing of that happening. And I don't want to just see it as a you know, our Premier leaving a legacy for herself saying well, we've introduced UNDRIP. That's what I did. You know, if that's all what it's about. Because the whole thing wasn't fleshed out with all groups, all Indigenous groups. We're leaving out the DFN and the Akaitcho.
And the Premier knows since I started my concerns with that, with this whole IGC first, where's the DFN? They make the Deh Cho First Nations look like the bad group but in fact they're not. They are strongly stating they are on unceded unsurrendered territory and will not give up their treaty rights. And after consultation with Deh Cho First Nations grand chief, I'll be voting to abstain from this motion. Mahsi.
Thank you, Member. Are there any other general comments? Seeing none, can we proceed oh, Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. So I've spent most of my adult life here in the Northwest Territories actually supporting and advocating for Indigenous rights. I came up here in 1985 to work at the Dene Nation. It's kind of ironic I'm at the point now, you know, we've got this bill in front of us to try to implement Indigenous rights, and I've got very serious concerns about it. That is just I'm finding this very difficult. And I think part of it is the way the bill was drafted and put together.
You know, when I look at this bill, there just okay, part of the problem is that people conflate us MLAs as part of the Government of the Northwest Territories. The other side of the House is part of the Government of the Northwest Territories. That's the executive branch. But there's very little appreciation or understanding of what the legislative branch is all about and what the role is of Regular MLAs. You know, part of our job, and most of our job, is to actually hold Cabinet to account for what they promise, for what they say. Maybe once in a while we get some input into what they develop and bring forward. And that's the way consensus government is supposed to work. But I think it's going to be increasingly hard for Regular MLAs to do their jobs if the bill is passed in its current form. And the reason why I say that is because this bill will significantly as I said earlier is going to significantly change the way the House business, the legislative agenda, the work of committees; it's all going to change, and it's going to change it could change quite dramatically. And it probably should. But the Regular MLAs are going to be kind of kept in the dark about a lot of this, the way the bill has been put together. So, yeah, that's, I guess, one of my biggest fears here is the only role that I can see for Regular MLAs in this bill, other than our ordinary roles as, you know, making Member statements, asking questions in the House, you know, committees can invite Ministers in, public hearings, you know, we can discuss things, recommend things. But the only role in here is to get a notice if there's going to be a shared decisionmaking agreement negotiation starting. That's it. Or the Ministers identified as having some authority to go off and negotiate. That's the only role for Regular MLAs in the bill. But I'd like to ask the Minister am I misinterpreting something? Where else specifically in this bill is there a role for Regular MLAs? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Madam Premier.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Am I just answering the one question or the two? Just the one.
Question to the Member.
Within this bill, I mean, like the Member pointed out that they were given notice or advice if there's a shared agreement that's to be signed.
Madam Chair, I'd like to say that within a lot of the acts in the Northwest Territories, they don't define the roles of Members that I can point out. I may be wrong. If that's wrong, then please correct me. But I don't think that's the role of acts. The acts defines what shall happen and then the roles of Regular Members are in our legislative protocol that we all adhere before a bill gets passed in the House. They have a chance for questions and answers, they have their own roles, and those maintained. But, again, going back to not every act in the Northwest Territories has the roles of Regular Members that I can point out. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And the Minister has confirmed that the only specific role in here is about getting notice about authorization for a Cabinet Minister to go off and negotiate a shared decisionmaking agreement. But, you know, we're supposed to be a consensus government system, and this is not any regular kind of bill. This is a bill to implement Indigenous rights and has the potential to very significantly change the way the Legislative Assembly operates, the way the legislative agenda's formulated, what happens in committees.
And to exclude Regular MLAs from that process, not good. Not good. And it's not within keeping of how consensus government is supposed to work in my humble opinion. And you know, the committee tried to build in ways for Regular MLAs to be direct observers, dare I say, in some of this. And that was rejected by the Premier. And we're going to get so some of that a little bit further.
But the other two other issues, if I can get to them quickly, is I want the Premier to confirm that there was no engagement with Regular MLAs about the statement of consistency on a Private Member's bill. And a simple yes or no will do. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We agreed to work with Regular Members on developing the statement of consistency. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, that's good to hear. But I asked whether there was any work with Regular MLAs about including Private Member's bill within the scope of this bill before it was given to us. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to pass it to Martin Goldney.
Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I believe the question is: was there work prior to the bill being shared with committee around certain features including the requirement of the statement of consistency for Private Member's bills. And there was not preengagement with Regular Members on that. We anticipated that will would be part of the conversations that we had after the bill was provided to Members. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yeah, thanks for that confirmation. I do want to thank the committee for its work. You know, and there's some good features in here. Don't anybody characterize me as trying to stop or oppose this. The action plan is a good idea.
The idea of doing a review, the shared decisionmaking agreementsinprinciple, all good things, and certainly consistent with the declaration. The issue is none of that was going to be public. Absolutely nothing. No public information about it, no opportunity for public engagement. I just one of the most frustrating things I found, certainly in this Assembly, is I want to give the Premier and Cabinet lots of credit. They did a great job in engaging and working with Indigenous governments. Maybe not all of them. But they have completely forgotten that they're actually supposed to be a public government. Committee had to fix this up. Committee shouldn't have to fix that up. So I want the Minister to tell me how they actually considered the open government policy in putting this bill together. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to start and then pass it to Martin Goldney for additional comments.
The role of the executive so within consensus government system, Madam Chair, Regular Members, all of us 19 Members, determine our Cabinet. And the reason we pick Cabinet is so that the Cabinet can take oversight of the government programs, developing legislation, etcetera. What was
Do you want to repeat your question, Member for Frame Lake
I don't want the clock to be run out. I want to know how specifically the open government policy was used in drafting this bill. I don't want to hear about the roles of Cabinet. I don't want to hear about roles of Regular MLAs. I want to know how the open government policy was implemented in the drafting of this bill. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Madam Premier.
I will pass that question to Mr. Goldney. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So with respect to the open government policy as it applies to the development of the bill, what we considered is once the bill informs the work of government, we do anticipate that policy continuing to apply and those principles to be considered in the ongoing work of government under this bill.
One thing that was considered when we were drafting this bill in collaboration with Indigenous governments is the need to sometimes balance openness and transparency with the ability for discussions and collaboration free and frankly with our Indigenous government partners. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any other general comments on this? Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I support the bill because I think the majority of the people of the Northwest Territories are of Indigenous. I just I want to talk about a couple things.
The IGC is with three governments. Okay, I mean, with the federal and territorial government and the government that signs on. And it's not necessarily that I want to make this very clear because I think clarity is very important.
When you sign on, that means you have a say in land and resources now that we're actually doing some of the work with especially with the process convention. You have to realize the different things that have to happen when and it's only happening now in this Assembly. It never happened before. Even though they signed on and a lot of times there was there wasn't the dialogue was not there. And because a couple of groups are not signed on doesn't mean that they didn't have the opportunity to sign on. They chose not to sign on because they're in negotiation of their land claim, and they want to make sure the lands are available of what they wanted in the claim before and they still have an opportunity to do just that. The door is always open.
Because I was with I sat with the Akaitcho territory for many years. And that was their argument when I'd ask them why they don't do this. And the same with and I'm sure that's the same with the Deh Cho. You know, there are reasons why people do certain things or why groups do certain things. I was in leadership and I sat with all these chiefs across the territories.
I think this bill is extremely important in the time of reconciliation and moving forward. There will be flaws. There will be challenges. There's always flaws and challenges. There's loopholes. There's always everything that will come with it. But we have to be able to move forward and work to make it better.
And if we work together as a group, as we're supposed to in consensus government, that's what's supposed to happen. Many times I don't agree with a letter that comes across the desk. I immediately run down the hall. I don't like this word. What does that mean? How is that going to affect my community? I mean, I do it all the time. People have got to be able to have dialogue, a lot of dialogue sometimes. Dialogue with who is putting it out or which department. And sometimes we don't always use that tool. And there are going to be flaws. There are some flaws. And even when the hearing was in Fort Smith, there were people a couple of chiefs were there and the Metis and some of these people are part of the drafters of this you know, had input into this. And I'd like to say that it's a start. Sure, there's going to be challenges but we have to work through them.
And, you know, many times it's easy to criticize, it's easy to blame someone else for other people’s mistakes but taking onus for your mistakes and saying you made a mistake is very important. And I think that, you know, I have a lot of friends that are within the territories, especially in leadership, and people always, you know, are easy to criticize. As soon as one of them makes a mistake, they're easy to criticize. But you can't do that. You've got to see the reason why this happened. And, you know, this bill I think Bill 85 is extremely important to the Northwest Territories, to all people in the Northwest Territories, including the nonIndigenous population because many of them understand why we have to have this bill. It's a really it's not posing anything on anyone. It's a collaboration of ideas to make things better. And that's what the UNDRIP bill is all about. I don't have any questions but just for clarity. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Are there any further general comments? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a quick comment, I guess. Madam Chair, Bill 85 is a start of a new relationship between this government and Indigenous people of the Northwest Territories. Is it a perfect start? Probably not. But it's a move but it is a move in the right direction. It provides the framework for the recognition of a cooperative relationship based on principles of justice, democracy, and human rights. Some, not all Indigenous governments we know, have signed on to this declaration. And in time, I believe that will happen as claims are settled. The Government of Canada, this government, and the people of Canada have talked reconciliation. And now we have an opportunity to make that reality through passing Bill 85. And I'll provide my support to make that happen. You know, we've talked enough. But at some point, we have to walk the talk, and I think we can start that by passing this bill. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Are there any further general comments to this? Member for Tu NedheWiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll just keep my comments short. I guess the overall, I've been around for a while here in Aboriginal politics. And, you know, when we keep thinking about the early days of the Northern Accord in 1989, was more or less again another way of transferring a lot of these authorities from Ottawa to the GNWT.
And in 2004, they created the Aboriginal Summit and the Aboriginal Summit, again, was made of all these Aboriginal leaders in the Northwest Territories and trying to work on an arrangement with GNWT. And my colleague, Ron Bonnetrouge here from the Deh Cho, had talked about devolution 2014. And that was the beginning of the transfer of a lot of the responsibilities from Ottawa, even on leased land. At one time the Government of Canada used to provide those services for about $200 a year on leased lands and somehow it got transferred to the territorial government and the leases went up to, I don't know, $1,600, and if you're an elder it goes down to $800 and for those services. And it's really frustrating for the elders in my community. But at the end of the day, you know, when you really think about it, it's the GNWT is actually in the process of moving towards a provinciallike type of government or overall. So they have greater control on the lands and resources here in the Northwest Territories.
So when the devolution gave way, that's exactly what happened. But going forward, I'm just wondering, like, there's going to be a set of check boxes with the GNWT as to how we can get to that where we are to the point where we're an actual province of Canada, you know. And right now as it is, there's still hurdles in the way though, that we need to talk about, and I keep mentioning it over and over again, is that we have section 35 constitutional rights. We got claims. We got selfgovernment agreements. Sooner or later, this government here is going to have to deal with that. And it may have to be done through a constitution that be created between the GNWT and Indigenous governments. And that needs to be talked about. So we just want to make sure that, you know, this bill that's going forward doesn't impede and we already know it doesn't impede on those constitutional rights. But overall, you know, I keep thinking about this and when I hear the discussion around the table, you know, at the end of the day, you it's this government here, the ultimate goal and mandate of this government is going to be become a province.
And when that happens, then the authority's going to be here. But we need to figure how we're going to work together and coexist and what kind of relationship we're going to have. So it's more or less a comment because, as a former leader, I mean, I've been around I've been to all these meetings as a former leader. And I seen it. So anyway it's just going to be Madam Chair, it's just a comment. But the thing is that I guess overall this bill, there's some issues there that we could take a look at but we'll get it sorted out. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Member for Nunakput.
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, I am I'm going to support this. It's moving forward. We're going to bring everybody to the table And that's good news about what's happening here. Devolution in ‘14, I was here when that happened. And Inuvialuit, we signed on and everybody was given opportunity. But now if this bill passes, we get to pull it, bring everybody to the table and everybody will have a voice and a say in what they think is right. You know, I really hear what Ron says but, you know, at the end of the day we have to work together, and what Mr. Simpson said is we have to a starting point. This is a starting point to something bigger than what we're talking about here. It's going to bring all the nations together, to work together for the betterment of our people who we serve. And that's why we're here. And that's one thing we can't take when we take away with this, it's a steppingstone and we leave it to the next government to try to do better and to finish it off. And, you know, I hope in one day they could get all this sorted out. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. General comments? Seeing none, can we proceed to the clausebyclause review of the bill?
Agreed.
Committee, we will defer the bill number and title until after consideration of the clauses. I will call the clauses in groups. Please turn to page 1 of the bill.
Clause 1 through 5, does committee agree?
Agreed.
Clauses 6 through 7, does committee agree?
Agreed.
Clause 8. Member for Frame Lake.
