Debates of October 21, 2004 (day 25)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the 15th Legislative Assembly vision and goals document states that the people of the Northwest Territories should be the primary beneficiaries of the development of our resources;

AND WHEREAS there is no agreement at this time providing for Northwest Territories governments to benefit from a share of resource royalties;

AND WHEREAS it has been estimated, based on a natural gas price of $4 U.S. per thousand cubic feet, the return over the next 30 years on a Mackenzie gas project, in the absence of a resource revenue sharing agreement, would be $900 million for the GNWT compared with $21.7 billion for the federal government;

AND WHEREAS our governments are losing out daily on substantial royalties from minerals and hydrocarbons which are continually leaving the territory to the benefit of the Government of Canada;

AND WHEREAS major resource development projects, while they create employment and business opportunities, also create substantial infrastructure and program demands on our governments, and hardships for residents in the form of higher costs for goods and services and social impacts;

AND WHEREAS the changes created by the proposed Mackenzie gas project and other developments will pose challenges for our residents and communities that our government does not have the means to address;

AND WHEREAS a network of protected areas has yet to be established to ensure the preservation of the land for future generations;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Sahtu, that this Legislative Assembly endorses the Mackenzie gas project and supports efforts to ensure that northerners realize demonstrable net benefits from such projects;

AND FURTHER that the Legislative Assembly urges the federal government to negotiate a fair resource revenue sharing agreement that provides northern governments with an equitable share of royalties from our hydrocarbons and minerals as essential to ensuring the people of the Northwest Territories are the primary beneficiaries of the development of our resources.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. A motion is on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to obviously speak in favour of this motion. Mr. Speaker, as was indicated earlier in our deliberations today, we know that once again the leader of our government, Premier Joe Handley, will be going to Ottawa again with the message from this territory and from our government and northern governments that the time is now to act with respect to resource revenue sharing. Time is of the essence. I don’t want to spend a lot of time reiterating the good comments of my colleagues here in the House today, but everyone knows that the resources of the Northwest Territories are being extracted at an ever-increasing rate and that every day that goes by in the absence of a resource revenue sharing agreement the Northwest Territories is losing out on resources which we are very much in need of. To that end, Mr. Speaker, we want to send our Premier armed with a very strong message when he goes to Ottawa that the development of the Mackenzie gas pipeline is imminent and we need significant movement on the part of the federal government with northern governments to ensure we realize monetary benefits from this development. With that, Mr. Speaker, I’ll conclude my statement and comments for now. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I throw my full support behind this motion and second it, due to the injustice that I see that’s going on by the federal government and the struggles that we have as a territorial government in terms of providing adequate -- like any other Canadians -- basic, simple programming services. We could pay for it. We could do it. There are lots of people who have opinions that support that this government can sustain itself with the amount of dollars that have been coming out of the Northwest Territories over the years and the kinds of infrastructures that we have in the Northwest Territories.

Look in our small communities; they’re just like Third World communities. We’re struggling and people are saying to us in the small communities we have the Mackenzie Valley pipeline happening and the Norman Wells expansion oilfield over the last couple of years that it was put through, why are we struggling with all of these resources in our own territory? The federal government is strong-arming us and it’s about time that we sit with them as equal partners and take them up on their word in terms of giving us a fair deal in terms of the resources. Otherwise it’s going to be a struggle for us again.

I think in the whole scheme of things that our Premier and our government and the people who are working for us on our behalf need to go down with a strong mandate to Ottawa and say we would like to work out a deal with you to show that we’re part of the confederacy within Canada here and that today we could stand up on our own two feet. Mr. Speaker, I think the bottom line is that we could pay our own way now. There are means and mechanisms that we could do it. I think the federal government now needs to really consider looking at taking the Northwest Territories as a serious partner in terms of helping all Canadians. Pay us what we need. Pay us what is owed to us.

With that said, in that sense, I’m not going to use too much of my time. I just want to thank the Members for their time and to say again I fully support this motion. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s with considerable regret that I stand here to speak against the motion. I will take some time to qualify my position here. The moves that the Northwest Territories should make, Mr. Speaker -- and when I say Northwest Territories I include not only this government here, but our partners among the First Nations and in the communities -- we have to set some new thresholds, some new targets, some new bars for ourselves and for our partners at the federal level, too, if we are indeed going to achieve something in the way of a resource management regime that will mean something for us as a real part of Canada, Mr. Speaker. Because right now and with the information and the processes and the track records that we have on our own account and in our negotiations and our attempts to get this kind of deal, we have failed over and over and over again, year after year after year, deal after deal after deal. We’re not getting anywhere. In terms of expressing where I believe we should be going and the kind of ambitions and desires that we should be setting out, this motion does not go far enough. So I’d like to qualify that. I am not opposed to the words that are in here, but if this Assembly is going to do something proactive and make a difference then we’re not going far enough in this motion.

Mr. Speaker, earlier today the Regular Members’ side of the Assembly spoke, I thought, very well, very convincingly, of so many aspects of the state of our territory and its linkage with resources and the lack of a resource deal. Why are we stuck in so many different holding patterns, if you will? Why are things not progressing as rapidly or as positively as we would like? So many of the causes come back to our inability to make the kinds of decisions, to have the kinds of resources at our disposal that we would like to have if we’re going to grow this territory. In the meantime, it’s worth repeating, last year alone, $200 million went into Ottawa’s coffers, $8 million went into ours. These are from the resource royalties in one year alone. Do the math, it just doesn’t figure.

Mr. Speaker, one of my colleagues -- I think it was Ms. Lee -- spoke to the social consequences of what’s going on in this NWT right now and we have on one side to be thankful for a boom economy generated by the diamond play in the North Slave here and by the oil and gas resources that are coming out of the far western part of the territory. We see new trucks and booming retail sales all over the place as at least some of the signals of a very healthy and vibrant economy. But there are consequences. We have statistically looked at the consequences, Mr. Speaker, rising statistics of abuse, of violence, of domestic strife. Mrs. Groenewegen yesterday related a very disturbing story in her community of youth. We’re not talking about older teenagers here, she was talking about kids under 14 and 15 who are really in serious trouble and our system, our infrastructure, our rules are ineffective when it comes to dealing with this. Yet we have all this wealth and all these resources going swirling around us, but we can’t do anything at that level. This is a remarkably disappointing, disturbing and demoralizing, really, state of affairs for a government because these are the things that are in our control. Yet, let’s look back again at the flow of the resources out of here.

Last year, the value of the resource was some $2.2 billion, twice the value of the expenditures that this government puts into all our programs flowing out of here in one year. It’s a remarkable comparison of where the wealth is going and where the need is, and we’re not doing much of a job of it. Housing, literacy, justice issues; there are many families out there, Mr. Speaker, that are challenged by these things daily and now with this new regime or this new economy where it seems money and influence from drugs, from alcohol and from huge expectations of what people can achieve we’re unable to deliver.

Mr. Speaker, on the social side, it is more and more frustrating to stand here, work here as an MLA knowing and watching the shareholders of these corporations around the world benefiting from our resources. That is their privilege and their right. They took a risk and I compliment those companies on some amazing returns. But in the meantime, they get the profits, Ottawa gets the royalties, we get the heavy sledding. We have to do the heavy lifting on the social side. We don’t have the tools or the resources to do it. Mr. Speaker, I’ve talked about the frustration of being in here and not being able to grow this territory. We’re going backwards. This year and next, our Finance Minister has told us that we have to pare $20 million a year off our budget. For four years running now, this Assembly and our committees and our bureaucracies have dealt with doom and gloom, debt and deficit every year because we haven’t had the ability to see where the money is going to be coming from. Other than that, it’s never going to be enough. But then every year for the last four years, somehow, Mr. Speaker, a truckload of money has driven up to the back door just at the last minute, we’re saved, feel really good for a little while, we get some quick relief, but that dull ache from long-term pain comes back that says my gosh, we’re still in a mess, we’re still in debt, we’re still in deficit next year and the year after that and the year after that. It’s not a way to govern, Mr. Speaker, not knowing where we’re going to go and what sense of control we’re going to have over our affairs. To the motion that says we’re looking for ways to secure resource revenue sharing, devolution arrangements, this motion does not go far enough.

I ran for this job. I believe I was elected to help grow this territory, to help expand and stretch and find new horizons. But I find, Mr. Speaker, that more and more of my attention and my decisions are going into, well, how much less can we do? How much do we have to cut back or hold off or defer or change our plans? I find that we are more and more just managing the essential services here and we’re not able to move this economy; as exciting as I believe it is, we are in a state of suspension because we don’t have the hope or the tools to see that we can make a change in our own future.

Mr. Speaker, I try to look at this, I guess, from the point of view of our partners, but yet our political and economic master is in Ottawa. The Premier told us earlier today that, indeed, on the devolution side, we’re dealing with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. They have the mandate there. But on the resource revenue side we’re dealing with the Department of Finance. The gaps here, the chasms, the grand canyons of difference between these two departments is chronic, it’s legendary. I just don’t know how we’re going to see that these two agencies will really be able to come together and work on our behalf. The Premier has expressed optimism. It’s his job to do that. But I would relate back to what I said is the track record of performance and progressive action on these things. I can’t share that sense of optimism.

I guess I can’t blame, in a sense, the folks at Finance Canada. You know, they’re looking at a money stream that’s growing by leaps and bounds from the Northwest Territories and maybe they’re saying to themselves, well, after years and years and years of putting money into the Northwest Territories we finally have a chance here to see some payback. Why should they give any more of that money away than they absolutely need to? Why should they go out of their way to help us satisfy some of our desires when there’s all this cash coming into an already cash-rich Ottawa? It’s not their job, I guess, to help grow the country.

From the point of view of DIAND, you know, earlier today I talked about the mantle of colonialism and I don’t know how else to explain it, Mr. Speaker. A group of mandarins, bureaucrats 4,000 kilometres from here who have an act that’s, oh, I don’t know, somebody was saying earlier today that the NWT Act first came about in 1870. So it’s something that has been around for a long, long, long time. It’s outdated, long past the time that Canada should be looking at its North not as a continuance of the colonial attitude, the “we know best” attitude, there aren’t enough of you up there, you guys don’t know what you’re doing, you’re never going to get your acts together, we’ll have to look after these things for you. That has to change. Somehow Canada has to say, yes, we’re going to give these people, northerners, aboriginal people, their say, their due. We’re going to let them go to work, and on a new set of terms with Canada make their way in this confederation. Canada agreed to do that five years ago with Nunavut, an extraordinary experiment in democracy and nation building and a belief in people. They’re having their tough times over in Nunavut, but they’ve got something to believe in, that they’ve asked for, and that they are going to make a difference with. I think we should be asking the same, and that is why this motion does not go far enough.

Mr. Speaker, I guess I would conclude this statement with an appeal to Members in this House to truly consider if we are going to take this opportunity to send a message out, is this the message that we should be sending. Should we not be sending one that says live up to the deal that everybody signed on March 18th of this year? Regrettably we’ve heard from the Premier that if it’s not already abandoned it’s not worth pursuing, because whatever circumstances have changed. The advent of the pipeline is something that we’ve all watched and anticipated with great expectations for coming on 30 years now. It’s virtually at our doorstep, but in the absence of certainty, confidence in what it’s going to mean for us, how we are going to be able to manage it. Is this the deal that we should be standing up and saying no, not until we know for sure this time what it means for northerners? That’s going to an extreme length I know in some peoples’ minds, but at what point are we going to allow ourselves to go in such short-term thinking, so disconnected, so unorganized in our thinking and our planning and our belief that we are just going to continue to allow this to happen for years and years and years to come? We will never be able to realize what I think can and should be our true place in Canada. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to speak on the motion and I believe it’s doable and I believe it’s time.

---Applause

As the honourable Member for Great Slave had indicated yesterday, an act governing the NWT was created in 1870 in Ottawa, and I believe that the territorial aspirations for wanting their own revenues and their share of royalties began one day after that act was created. So that’s 134 years ago, Mr. Speaker, yet we’re still on the same path and Ottawa certainly still has the old colonial mentality when it comes to our treatment for ourselves here in the Northwest Territories.

Just specific to the motion, Mr. Speaker, I’m a strong believer that, yes, we should maximize our benefit from this pipeline. I was a young man once…

---Laughter

…and it was about 1983, I had just finished school and they were talking about that first oil pipeline back then. I was quite opposed to it because I knew that that’s the land I grew up on and used, and what kind of benefits are we going to get from it. So I fought along with everybody else in saying look, you are not ramming this thing down our land without giving us some significant long-term benefits. So we stood there and we battled and we battled and we lost that battle, Mr. Speaker, based on national interest.

But there’s one important lesson that I would like to learn from that, and that’s that we spent all our energy opposing the pipeline at that time and we forgot about taking care of our people and boosting our infrastructure. I just want to make people aware that this time we’re not going to do that. We’ve got to take a better approach, and our government is going to have to help us do it this time. I asked the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development earlier in the House today, Mr. Speaker, about what our socioeconomic plan is, if we are going to be interveners, what role are we going to play instead of just rolling over, and I still contend that. This is just one step of doing it, we say here, okay, we do have interest in our land and we do want to take care of it. In fact, the riding that I represent is called Nahendeh. I mentioned to a couple people it means our land and, in fact, technically it does, but technically it doesn’t, Mr. Speaker. What it really means is that the land is with us. Nahendeh -- the land is with us, and I kind of referred to that in my Member’s statement is that from the land, our historical economic base was trapping and we’re using furs, the furs were providing for our needs, and now it’s different. Now here’s an opportunity for the land to still be with us by allowing us wealth, by accessing the gas and oil and other renewable resources that exist in our territory, Mr. Speaker, that we have to sell to Ottawa that they have to recognize that it’s time to give us some control over those resources and that’s all we’re asking.

This motion is giving us an avenue to say okay, devolution is not going to be a reality in the next couple of years, but here’s an opportunity in the absence of devolution let’s take this pipeline, let’s consider some kind of interim resource revenue sharing deal for that pipeline alone. Of course, I like their approach that all northern governments are going to have to partake because, particularly in my riding, I’ve got the Deh Cho First Nations who have the same aspirations and have maintained it since time immemorial that we want control of our resources, and I’m sure that jointly with the support of the government this can be achievable with the Deh Cho First Nations as well, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, there’s one thing I wish to speak to with regard to pipelines is that even the first oil pipeline was built in 1985 and they had a free ride for 20 years. They had a free ride for 20 years and no one said okay, let's look at this and start garnishing some resource revenues from that pipeline as well. So I’d like to put it to the government in this motion, let’s look at that as well, let’s start today…

Hear! Hear!

Thank you. We are really going to have to seriously consider that. What are we going to do, give them another free ride for another 20 years? I don’t think so, Mr. Speaker. I put that to government as well. When they are in Ottawa saying let’s look at this pipeline, there’s also concern about the existing one, you’re deriving revenues from it. I personally believe it’s wrong. It’s something that should have been done in 1985. That, too, I still believe is doable because we can start negotiations with that. Retroactive, certainly. Basically that’s the message in this motion and I support it fully. I would just like to ask government that when you are there talking about this motion, that you talk about that first pipeline as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to speak to this motion. Mr. Speaker, obviously the pipeline train is coming toward us and it’s probably actually right at our doorstep with the filing of the application just a few days ago. There’s no question we, as a government, are feeling squeezed because there are lots of things that we wanted to have in place before this pipeline project becomes a reality in order that our jurisdiction and our people receive the maximum benefits out of such a megaproject, a project that would be ranked worldwide as one of the biggest projects of our time. Mr. Speaker, I know that there’s no question and I know myself and I’m sure people in my riding would like to see this pipeline go through and we would like to see the Mackenzie Valley pipeline go first because we know that if the Alaskan pipeline goes first for any reason, then there’s a very good chance that the Mackenzie Valley pipeline will get behind in the line-up maybe for an indefinite period of time.

It is a very good thing that a group like APG -- Aboriginal Pipeline Group -- has been so successful by working very diligently and step by step and on time to place themselves in a position to maximize the benefits that would come from the pipeline construction and the distribution of gas that would go through those pipelines for a long time to come. Mr. Speaker, their partnership with the industry consortium made up of the biggest players in the industry have really marked a new beginning and a new chapter on aboriginal equity partnerships. The real qualitative partnership, unprecedented in its scale and in its substance, and I really congratulate them for that. I want to formally recognize the leadership of Mr. Fred Carmichael and the former Premier, Nellie Cournoyea, in that regard.

The regrettable thing, Mr. Speaker, is that the same cannot be said about many other important players in the North, and I think we really ought to in this House be mindful of that fact. That is a burden on this Assembly and we, as leaders, have to work harder to see how we could bring this circle into a full circle and that everybody is included in this resource development, that everybody feels like they are a part of this project and that they would all benefit from this project in a way that they think they ought to. I really think that as we debate and we await and we prepare for this pipeline, we need to really address our mind to that. It should really concern us all, Mr. Speaker, that we have a whole region in Deh Cho who have filed injunctions on this. It’s not directly related, but it's sort of an issue that speaks to a lot of things. What that tells me is that there is a genuine concern and grievances that we really need to address collectively. Mr. Speaker, this Legislature, the Premier and the federal government and all its responsible Ministers and the Prime Minister, I believe, must sit down and address the grievances of Deh Cho people and work out a settlement acceptable to all the parties involved. They must negotiate, and negotiate hard, to resolve this. If there is a will there and if they sit long enough, an agreement should be able to be reached.

Mr. Speaker, another big area that we haven’t resolved -- and it’s 25 or 26 years since the Berger Inquiry made major recommendations about what needed to be done before the pipeline should come North -- there are still lots of issues that remain unresolved, and I think Mr. Braden talked to some of that. Another big area I could think of that’s unresolved is the devolution of a province like ours from Ottawa to the North. Mr. Speaker, we know that the city of Yellowknife is the diamond capital of North America and it’s not Vancouver and that the DeBeers Snap Lake mine that will be operating in the near future is the first mine owned and operated by DeBeers that is situated outside of the African continent. These diamond mines have put Canada on the world map as one of the most prolific diamond producers in the world, yet the Government of the Northwest Territories is not responsible for mines. The Minister of Mines for the Northwest Territories is situated in Ottawa. We also know that this megaproject of the pipeline, oil and gas project, we know that the Minister responsible for energy is not our very own Mr. Bell, or honourable Minister Bell, as much as we would like him to be. The Minister of Energy for the NWT is sitting in Ottawa. Ministers of Energy, Ministers of Mines, Ministers of Labour, all of those important areas that impact what we do and the kind of decision-making that we want to do and are capable of doing, we don’t have jurisdiction over them.

Appalling.

We have been negotiating this for as long as we have been a government, as long as we have had a Legislature here, as long as we became a responsible government and no longer populated by appointees from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. Every Member of this Legislature who ever ran and got elected has had on their agenda devolution as their major task.

Hear! Hear!

It doesn’t appear to be that we are making much progress there. I know that we have our negotiators, but we still haven’t heard much about what’s going on in that area. So while I support and I know that everyone here supports the economic gains and economic benefits that will come from the pipeline, it is really with heavy heart, because we have no guarantee that we are going to get our share of the resource revenues that we want to see and that we still don’t have power and control over things that we need to have in order to make the right public policies and guidelines and regulations that we need to have in place, not to mention the money that we need to have to build the social and economic infrastructures to get ready for these megaprojects like pipeline development.

So, Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to put those two thoughts into this debate, but on balance I am going to support this motion because I just think it is important to give the Premier and the Minister of Finance as they travel to Ottawa to show to the government and people in Ottawa that we mean business and that this is very important to us, and that if they want to see the pipeline go through that they have to sit down and work out deals with us on resource revenue sharing. As well, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that we, as a Legislature, should not lose sight of the fact that we really need to have devolution of provincial-like powers, but it is about time because we are ready and we are able. We need to push them forward, and also I need to make clear that we really have an obligation as this Legislature and all aboriginal governments that we bring along all our brothers and sisters together, not one region without the other and that everybody gets their claims settled and their agreements from the federal government so that everybody feels like and everybody has what they need to feel like they are a full participant in these great discoveries and great adventures into pre-pipeline NWT. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I won’t be as long. I see this pipeline not like a train, but I get the image of more like a hurricane or tsunami taking over Florida. It is just going to come through the Northwest Territories, destroy our little towns and villages. So anybody in a trailer or whatnot better watch out, because these big oil companies are coming in.

Mr. Speaker, it’s paramount, it’s not just critical, it’s paramount that we receive primary benefits, substantial benefits, from this. In the Northwest Territories, we truly are the stewards of this land. However, I really doubt we have a veto on this project. There is nothing for us to hold our hands on our six-shooters and say this project shouldn’t happen. There is nothing. All the Prime Minister has to do is say well, national energy crisis, sorry, we are railroading this project through. Again, I use the train reference but it should be more like a hurricane or a tsunami that is going to come through and take this stuff. So it is really sad to think that our veto power really doesn’t exist, because national policy will take precedence over us.

Some people would say well, $900 million sounds like a lot of money, but when you equate that over 30 years, that’s $30 million a year. I mean, do I hear the federal government saying they are going to deal with our social realities when they come? Disposable income is going to certainly sky-rocket in this area for a number of years. The pipeline is going to take a couple of years to build and the social problems that come with that are going to be here too.

So $30 million a year over 30 years sounds like a lot of money, but when you now have to pay for treatment centres, that don’t exist today, that will have to be built, those things are going to cost a lot of money. Those are realities. So we need royalties that respect the job that we are going to have to do in the future and that needs to be a realistic approach, because it’s costing us money to get ready for this.

I am sorry to say, in my heart, I really believe unless something changes dramatically, and I appreciate the optimism of our Premier, I really do, but we need something concrete that tells me it’s not going to cost us more money than we will be receiving. I don’t know what to say. Do we need a crisis like what happened in Oka to get the world's attention, to get Canada’s attention to say something needs to happen? But we need something that screams loud and clear out there to say well, wait a minute. A lot of folks will be saying there will be employment and business opportunities, and I agree on a very micro level there will be areas, for certain, and it certainly will be good for all. But what about the words of training?

The Northwest Territories should be setting up as of today to try to be the NAIT of the Northwest Territories. We need a training centre to teach those skills that will come with this, to make sure that we don’t have 5,000 welders. We need to make sure that we have people balanced in all types of trades out there to be able to have a real future. We need to spread out trade development, we need to get more carpenters out there. Heck, we need every trade. I won’t get into how much. But when we look at the diamond strategies and things right now, did this government learn any lessons from trying to deal with these multinational companies on the diamond level? I mean, right now I think we are being treated like a Third World country.

Are there lessons learned? I don’t know. I really believe in the long run, after the pipeline gears up and leaves, that we are going to have maybe maximum 50 jobs. So the legacy won’t be how many jobs are going to be here in the end, because I don’t think that there are going to be even 50 jobs to run this pipeline. There is going to be one head office somewhere in the Northwest Territories. There are going to be probably three or four employees at that head office, there are probably going to be three or four employees at each little increment along the pipeline, maybe a couple in Fort Simpson, maybe a couple in Norman Wells, maybe a couple in Inuvik to make sure it keeps running. We are not going to be looking at a big legacy once this pipeline is up and running. So, I don’t know, I don’t want to see us sell out our protected areas, you know our watershed areas. I don’t want to see us sell our souls on this deal. Because we say we want the pipeline. I just don’t want the pipeline at any cost.

Mr. Speaker, I’m just going to close with a couple of small points. The first one is a fair agreement. It needs to be demonstrated and if we don’t receive a fair agreement, and we don’t start to get that sense now, we should start figuring out how to stop the pipeline until we do. Because we want the pipeline, I want the pipeline, but we want the benefits that come with it. As long as the federal government receives the benefits, I think northerners are spending all their money from the northern perspective. Right now, I’m nervous. I have to tell you, I am really nervous.

Mr. Speaker, the last point I’m going to say is that the fact that all northern governments, be it aboriginal governments, be it the territorial government, all northern governments will be there to pick up the pieces after the tsunami comes through and wipes us all out through their economic development. Because for anyone to think that we can stop a multinational company like those out there -- I won’t name them, but we all know who they are -- they are going to come through. We are just little peanuts to them. They are going to come through and they are going to steam through, this oil pipeline is going to come through because they want it to. And you know what? They get face time with the Prime Minister, probably more than our Premier, and that is probably what we have to remember. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. That is all I have to say on this issue. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the motion. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will start of by saying that I do support the motion and I do support the work of my colleagues on this side of the House as well as the government in asking the questions and putting this issue to the forefront today. I think it is important that it gets the air time it gets. I also wanted to mention that, now more than ever, I think it’s important that as Regular Members we support the Premier and we support his government in his going to Ottawa and trying to get us a deal. I know we have been at this a long time and it’s about time that we did get a fair deal.

I don’t know if the motion goes far enough. I would like to see a little bit more teeth in the motion, Mr. Speaker, but it does set the stage for the Premier's trip to Ottawa and give the government in Ottawa some indication of our displeasure at how we have been treated and how we have been taken advantage of for the past number of years. As well, I wanted to, while I’ve got the floor, make mention of the fact that most Members are familiar with my feelings toward the government in Ottawa and how I believe, that being that they were in a majority situation for the past number of years, that having changed in May of this year to a minority situation, I think now more than ever, it would be advantageous for our government to make friends with both the New Democratic Party of Canada and the Conservative Party to try to work some things out and get our agenda to be part of their agenda in Ottawa. I think that could pay huge dividends for us here in the Northwest Territories.

My Member's statement today talked about the need to set up a permanent trust fund and this is something that I, you know again, feel very strongly about and I don’t know how Ottawa could answer to the Government of the Northwest Territories and say no to that. I think that that’s just fundamental. I mean, they are our resources, we should get some resource royalties from those resources and it should be set aside until we settle our differences and they settle their differences with us. I don’t understand how they could say no to that.

Again, I do support the motion that is in front of us and it’s a very important issue and I am supportive of the pipeline being built down the Mackenzie Valley, but, again, not at any cost. I am supportive of that happening and I feel that the majority of this Assembly support that happening, and we just want to ensure that what is rightfully ours we get back. I think that’s a fair enough deal for Ottawa to imagine.

The other thing that I just want to mention before I close, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that -- and I know that one of my colleagues had mentioned it earlier -- Ottawa has been getting resource revenue royalties from us for a number of years, especially on the Norman Wells pipeline. We should start discussing whether or not we want to go after that money retroactively. That is not a stretch of the imagination, Mr. Speaker. I think we should be discussing that, as well. We’ve got one diamond mine that has been in production for a number of years, it’s probably halfway through its mine life and we haven’t gotten any royalties from that, or hardly any. Ottawa still gets the lion's share of royalties from that mine, as well. Again, Mr. Speaker, I support the motion and I would encourage everyone, now more than ever, to put their support behind the Premier and his government to try to get us a deal with Ottawa; a fair deal at that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. To the motion. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On April 6, 2004, when the northern leaders from all regions of the NWT met to discuss northern issues, this motion, which I am in favour of, Mr. Speaker, is specific to one of these main concerns orated by all at this meeting.

The concern we as government leaders have, and obligation we have, is to communicate to the federal government on behalf of our constituents all the wishes that were brought up during those meetings. This motion, although it’s part of a larger picture, is a step in the right direction that was set in that meeting, a direction toward shared stewardship towards our land and our resources. It is not only fair and equitable, but also long overdue. Resource revenue sharing will not only give northerners more opportunities to diversify our partnerships with other northern governments, but also allow this government to work more closely with aboriginal governments and with its people knowing we are receiving some benefits from all the resources that are flowing out of the NWT.

Even though we do have various opinions on why the motion should be passed in the House and why it should be supported by all Members for a leader to bring to the federal level, I think we can’t forget about why the real meat of the motion is to benefit the people who aren’t receiving benefits today. We can all sit in this room and talk about benefits that we can realize in the future, but when we really turn around and look at ourselves, we are all receiving benefits today. We all get paycheques every two weeks. We have houses to live in. We have education and health care. Mr. Speaker, I still have to remind everybody that we do have a lot of northerners in the streets of Yellowknife, in the small communities and in the bush, trapping and hunting, who are very poor in the true sense of the word. Many of them still can’t read or write. Many of them don’t have any social assistance. Many of them don’t get any consideration by government for any form of assistance or trapping fund or any community support of any kind and they don’t ask for any. It’s people like that is the intent of this motion. That’s why I feel we should all support the motion and ensure the message does go through to the federal government that we do care about everybody right from the trapline to the Legislative Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting this motion. However, as my colleague from Frame Lake has indicated, I don’t think that this particular motion has as much teeth as it should have.

Mr. Speaker, this motion is only a portion of what we have been trying to do for the last number of years. In March, the majority of the aboriginal groups, the government and the Government of Canada signed the Lands and Resource Devolution Framework Agreement. Within that particular agreement, there are provisions there for them to negotiate resource revenue sharing. Because time is of the essence and our Premier will be going to Ottawa, I think it would be appropriate at this time to indicate that the Mackenzie Valley gas project has been submitted for review.

We also heard about the Alaskan gas pipeline, which the Senate is supporting with an enormous amount of money. I think it’s about time we give our Premier ammunition to go to Ottawa and lobby on our behalf, so we can start negotiating our resource revenue sharing with the Government of Canada.

As I indicated today, Mr. Speaker, in my Member’s statement with regard to strong leadership, I think the Premier has indicated today to some of the questions Members have posed to him, that he has support from the majority of the northern leadership, including ourselves on this side of the House. I think we have to do more. It’s unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that only the Premier and the Deputy Premier will be attending this meeting in Ottawa. If it’s not too late, I hope the Premier would also invite some of the key leaders from the different regions to go with him, so they can lobby not only the government in power, but the other Members as Mr. Ramsay has said, the opposition, the NDP and others in Ottawa.

Mr. Speaker, I think it’s about time, as others have said. Every day we are losing money from the resources going to Ottawa. I think we have to send a strong message to Ottawa that we mean business and it’s about time. We are mature now and I think it’s about time we can manage our own affairs.

Hear! Hear!

With that, Mr. Speaker, thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. To the motion. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to say first that Cabinet will be voting in support of this motion.

---Applause

We do appreciate very much the strong support that the Members have taken for the position that has been put forward in this motion.

Mr. Speaker, this pipeline project is the biggest project in recent Canadian history and its happening in our territory. We can’t sit back and just be happy that we’ve got the biggest project and be satisfied with that. I agree with the Members and with northerners, if not all northerners, that we also have to have a fair resource revenue sharing arrangement. We have to have a fair amount of that money stay in the North.

Mr. Speaker, that is important to us. We’ve heard numbers already about how much money is being made in oil and gas and diamonds and how little of it stays in the North compared to what goes to the federal government.

Mr. Speaker, this project is huge. It’s so big that the oil and gas companies…Imperial has told they have to start booking space in the steel mills this coming January in order to have the steel pipes that they need when construction happens in 2007 or whatever their schedule is. They need to start booking it now. This is huge.

Mr. Speaker, I also believe and maybe every government believes it’s at a critical point, but I believe we are. We have a lot of the aboriginal claims settled. We have a number that are underway. We have a mood out there that says we want to get on with this and we want to work positively towards settling the processes, settling self-government, setting devolution, getting a good resource revenue sharing. People want to get things done. We have the right mood, economic activities and the right political agenda moving along.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that this next three or four years, and hopefully within the three years left in the life of this government, we are going to be able to set a course for our government and for the North that is going to result in long-term, sustainable benefits and a strong economy. We probably have 20 to 40 years of good oil and gas and mining activity that we know about, but we have to think longer term than that and set the stage now to have things done right.

Mr. Speaker, I like the idea, as being raised by some Members, about a heritage fund or a trust fund. I think it’s time for us to begin to talk about putting some money aside for the future. That will certainly be one of the messages that we will take to Ottawa this trip and on future trips. It is something we will talk further with the aboriginal leaders about.

Mr. Speaker, as we move ahead on this we want to work together with all northerners and we also want to work with the federal government and all Canadians. We want to work with the aboriginal leaders, with the municipal leaders, with business leaders, and with the people generally in the North. We know there are going to be differences and we’re going to have arguments and it’s going to take some compromise on all our parts. But we also know that there’s an attitude out there that we want to move ahead with this and we want to find ways of making it work. We’re not going to stop or walk away from the table every time there is a disagreement about a particular point. We’ll find a way of working together. I think we have made a lot of good headway on that, starting with the meeting of the Circle of Northern Leaders last year and subsequent meetings that have been followed up.

I like the attitude we have in this House, Mr. Speaker. I think it’s a very positive one that sends the right message to Ottawa and to the people in the North that we are working hard on their behalf, because it’s on behalf of the people that we’re here. I’ve heard a number of Members make reference to that, that what really counts here is the extent to which we make a difference in people’s lives.

Mr. Speaker, even before the pipeline is moving ahead we have begun, as a government, to take steps not only in negotiating resource revenues, but also preparing people. There are a lot of training initiatives that are going on right now and a good example of working together is the ASEP money that was announced, the Aboriginal Skills Employment Partnership. There’s training happening today as we speak. There’s a Pipeline Operation Training Committee that is in place. There’s apprenticeship training going on. We’re getting ready.

Mr. Speaker, to be clear, it isn’t just about the pipeline. The pipeline is really just the beginning because, yes, there’s only going to be a few jobs on the pipeline, but the pipeline is going to enable and encourage a lot of other development to take place. It’s that other development, the exploration, the development, all of the systems that come together as we take advantage of this opportunity that are going to make a difference. I see the pipeline as being a way of getting benefits for many, many years, but not forever because it’s a non-renewable resource and we’ve got to, now in this Assembly, chart a course that’s going to take us for a look at the next 40, 50, 100 years of what’s our future. We are going to see a lot of change in the next little while.

Mr. Speaker, I feel strongly that we need to take advantage of this kind of economic opportunity. There has been mention of competing pipelines or other alternatives people can look at, but, I tell you, it is a lot better to deal with the social impacts that this pipeline may bring -- and no doubt it will bring some social problems, whether it’s drugs or people spending money in ways that they shouldn’t be -- there will be problems, but I tell you it is a lot better to have this kind of activity and employment, that positive feeling, than it is to have nothing and just have despair and suicide and just a lot of sadness and frustration in people’s homes. We support this project. We feel strongly that we can, as 19 Members here, chart a course that is going to take advantage of this and use it in a way that it will benefit everyone.

Environmental concerns are certainly a big issue and again, as a government, we feel very strongly about it. We feel very strongly about the Protected Areas Strategy. We strongly encourage the federal government to find those few million dollars they need in order to move ahead with that Protected Areas Strategy and, also, to take on the other environmental challenges we face in the North. It isn’t just protected areas, it is also the remnants of old development that we see all over the Northwest Territories, from Great Bear Lake to around this area to everywhere. That kind of stuff has to be cleaned up, and we’ll continue to work with the federal government to make sure that is happening.

Mr. Speaker, I am maybe too optimistic in some people’s eyes, but I am very encouraged by the Prime Minister’s interest in the North. His first trip as the Prime Minister was to Nunavut, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. He has also included in the Throne speech the commitment to work on a new vision for the North. This wouldn’t be a federal initiative that the federal government would go and develop our vision for us, but one that would be worked out with us and with aboriginal leaders and with all northerners, in fact.

So, Mr. Speaker, this is a project that we strongly support. I believe as part of the new vision, devolution has to be a key piece. I’ve heard some Members talk about devolution. We’re not in this discussion today ignoring devolution or setting it on a back burner or anything like that. Devolution has to happen. We have to have control over our own resources and we will continue to work on that agenda. As I said earlier, there are meetings going on next week at negotiations. We will continue it. I’m told that we could have an agreement-in-principle as early as the end of the year. We’re going to continue to move that agenda along as well, and certainly not take our eye off it.

In the immediate term, Mr. Speaker, we need to stop the bleeding of those resource revenues from the Territories to the South, and take some action that is going to result in a quick agreement that will keep some of those resources here to be spent today on some of the social needs in particular, some of the infrastructure needs, but also for some I hope to be set aside as a heritage or a trust fund for future.

There are a lot of areas we need to do more in. I mentioned training; we’re doing a lot and that’s happening and we’re proud of what we’re doing in training. We are beginning to prepare communities for the impacts of the pipeline. We are, as I mentioned, taking steps on the environmental side and making our views known and ready to put our money on the table to ensure the Protected Areas Strategy moves ahead. We’re doing a lot on mitigating a lot of the social impacts that we know are going to come along with this.

But, Mr. Speaker, in spite of the social impacts, let me just say anybody who has doubts about the value of some of these big projects, take a drive down in Detah and Ndilo, two communities in my constituency. I tell you, there are a lot of people who have a very positive improvement in their lifestyle as a result of good jobs in the mining industry. I see people living in big houses, I see people taking their kids to hockey, I see people with boats, with ski-doos. They have not lost their contact with the land, but it has made a big difference. Yes, there are problems, but we’re working as a government with all people to be able to overcome some of those.

Mr. Speaker, I want to close by saying that we’re very appreciative of the debate and the statements that have been made today. These are strong statements and they certainly will help us, the Minister of Finance and I, as we go to Ottawa. The meetings in Ottawa are going to focus largely on our territorial financing formula and on equalization with the provinces. But we also have an opportunity while we’re there to meet with Ministers on this issue, on resource revenues. We also have an opportunity to talk with the Prime Minister about the vision for the North. Mr. Speaker, let me close with that and say I do really appreciate the statements that are being said today and I can tell you that these are being listened to in Ottawa. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Handley. The Chair will recognize the mover of the motion for closing comments. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today was a good day in the Legislative Assembly in that I believe we, as elected Members, sit on committees and sit through briefings and at conferences all the time on the subject of the Mackenzie gas pipeline, and quite often we begin to assume that everyone in the public has access to the same kind of information and the same kind of debate that we do. So I think we accomplished something good here today in the fact that we have provided a strong message for our Premier and our Deputy Premier as they go off to Ottawa. As the Premier said, people will be listening to this. We’ve taken a strong position, but I believe it is a good position and I think that the culmination of the day’s comments and questions are reflected in this motion that has been brought forward.

I know that there is some concern that perhaps the motion didn’t go far enough in terms of bringing in the question of devolution, but, Mr. Speaker, I support the premise that devolution is a subject which does need to be pursued. If we can break off a piece that can give us a tangible result in terms of an interim agreement on royalties, then we will have accomplished something.

It is a mammoth task. We do wish the Premier well in his deliberations and communications with the federal officials and, with that, Mr. Speaker, I just thank the Members for their input and participation in this and we will request a recorded vote. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The Member is requesting a recorded vote. All those in favour of the motion, please rise.

Mr. Ramsay, Mr. Pokiak, Mr. Villeneuve, Mr. Zoe, Mr. Menicoche, Ms. Lee, Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Krutko, Mr. Roland, Mr. Handley, Mr. Dent, Mr. McLeod, Mr. Bell, Mrs. Groenewegen.

All those opposed, please rise.

Mr. Braden.

All those abstaining, please rise. Results: the motion is carried with 16 Members in support, one Member opposed. The motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause