Debates of October 18, 2005 (day 12)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to ask questions on housing, as well. I think it is good that we are doing this today because housing was, bar none, the number one issue we heard about in our pre-budget consultation. When we are all aware of the housing crisis, it is really important that we spend every penny we have in the housing budget as much as possible. We find here now that the corporation is in a little bit of a crisis mode. It is going through a review of the mandate which we have not seen yet. It has had $30 million of its budget being transferred to ECE. That is a huge hole in its mandate without replacing it with any other kind of project other than this thing called the Novel project, Mr. Speaker. I believe -- and I am an optimist -- the pipeline will go ahead. My nightmare is that, when they come and go, we are going to have 1,400 trailers scattered all over the Territories that nobody wants. That is my big nightmare.

Mr. Speaker, I think we are reasonable to think this because the corporation has not done such a great job on placing 40 trailers. Imagine what they could do with 1,400. Mr. Speaker, there have not been any kinds of documents or anything, discussion papers or anything, a cost benefit analysis. Does the Minister have any plan on letting any kind of information out to the public so the public can judge for themselves what a great deal this is? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, this idea has been presented through our business plan process. We have talked to committee. We basically have offered tours for committee members to see the facility for themselves. It is not as if no one has been involved in this. I think it is important to realize that this is on the basis that we have a project. Without a project, this idea will not go anywhere. I think that we have to realize that, without a pipeline, this is not…Again, we are in the process of negotiations. This is part of the government’s social impact benefits that we are hoping to derive from the pipeline that is presently under those negotiations. I have been presenting this to the federal Minister, looking at the federal monies that are coming forward. Because this project is so far in the future, we cannot commit to making any capital expenditures until we realize that the project is up and running, the units will be occupied for a number of years during construction, and then where we go after that.

There has been involvement from Cabinet colleagues and the Department of Finance. The federal government is aware of this. Again, we are depending on a lot of these dollars that we are talking about coming by way of the federal government initiatives. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, we are aware that we have some challenges today. We have put proposals to the federal government looking at the $1.6 billion to deal with funding for the next three years. It is not as if we have been doing nothing. We are looking at that by way of getting federal funding. We are looking at somewhere in the range of about $25 million a year with matching funding. Hopefully, we will be able to put 100 units a year on the ground for the next three years. That is the objective we are trying to meet. We are working this through.

Mr. Speaker, those are some of the areas we covered. Again, a lot of these decisions – you talk about Novel – are all based on there being a pipeline. This is the concept that they will use to provide these workforce camps for the pipeline.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you that this proposal was received without a lot of…It was not very well received, let me just say. There were just lots of questions that the Minister has not been able to answer at the committee level.

Instead of providing the information that Members need to make good sound judgment about such a mega project, he has taken the initiative to invite anybody who wants to come and see this trailer in Calgary. I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, there are some really nice trailers in my riding. I know what a trailer looks like. I don’t need to go all the way to Calgary to see what it is going to look like. We are talking about this corporation spending the equivalent to two years' budget for the entire corporation for 1,400 trailers so that the old companies could use it and ATCO could benefit from it, and he hasn’t done a cost benefit analysis. I want to know from the Minister when any of us would see some kind of a document that gives us the goods. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, I would like to, again, remind the Member that I have presented this to committee. We have given documentation out. Again, this will not see the light of day unless there is a pipeline. We have to work with our different parties that are out there, and that it is all hinging on a decision to go forward for a pipeline. Without that decision, we will not have this project.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Short supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I don’t know if the Minister has information that he is not sharing with us, but I am operating under the assumption that the pipeline is going to go ahead. Regardless, the Minister has indicated that he is talking to the federal Minister. He has negotiations going. He is travelling to Calgary every month to look at his project. He has a consultant on this. He has spent so much money on a project, and he hasn’t given us…It is going to cost at least over $100 million. Where is the analysis, Mr. Speaker?

Good question.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, just to clear the air, we have not hired any consultants for this. It has all been done in house and also working with the Department of Finance, through our finance people, to deal with this. We have been working along with other parties, which includes Imperial Oil, to see exactly how they were going to be able to consider this as a possibility of a proposal that we are putting forward through our social impacts to be considered as part of the wishes of this government.

Again, Mr. Speaker, we have been in the process of developing this. Yes, we have been requesting federal assistance for this program so we, as a government, will not be stuck holding the bag. There are federal programs out there that basically will get this type of submission. We have been working with the federal government. CMHC is party to this. Maybe the Member doesn’t realize that there are certain confidential agreements in place in regard to releasing this information, especially between the parties that are presently involved, but also in regard to our position going forward with Imperial Oil on the social impact agreements. Again, there are confidential restrictions here in releasing this information, but I am willing to present this to committee again if that is what it is going to take. We have already gone to that.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final, short supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A short final supplementary. My riding of Range Lake was a great beneficiary of George Jones' concert. We had lots of people from all of the communities at Tim Hortons. Even without any prodding, I have had people from Tuktoyaktuk and Paulatuk telling me, "We don’t want any trailers in my home town." They have already heard about this. There is nothing confidential about the 1,400 Novel trailers. If the Minister is not going to give us this information, I want to know when he is prepared to ask the Joe Punches of Trout Lake and all the people in Tuktoyaktuk and Paulatuk who have to live in these trailers what they think of that. We don’t want 1,400 trailers that nobody wants to live in. That is the important question. When will they find out? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have to wake up to reality here that we do have a housing crisis in the Northwest Territories and, at the pace that we are going, we cannot afford to put 2,000 units on the ground with the existing budget that we have as a government. We have to find unique ways of being able to accomplish that, with realizing that this is one of the ways that we can do that. I think that, as Members can note, you go to every community up and down the valley and see that there are people living in trailers, either here in Yellowknife or other places in the Territories. We have market housing, which basically are mobile homes that go into communities. At the end of the day, the product that we are going to buy, we want to ensure that it meets our standards and it meets the northern climate that it is going to be put in. So ensuring that we have the product that meets our needs, but also ensuring that the residents of the Northwest Territories will know that they can live in comfort with a roof over their heads, realizing that we have a crisis in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, to continue with this line of questioning to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation on the ATCO Novel housing proposal here, it is indeed, on the surface from a conceptual point of view, one of the kinds of legacy projects that we all anticipate could come out of the Mackenzie Valley pipeline project. It has great potential. It is one that we should be looking at with all seriousness but, to date, as my colleagues have pointed out, there are some very major gaps in the business planning approach.

Mr. Speaker, I can tell that we are going to have to wear out a few shovels to get to the core of this matter, so I will start with one of them. Mr. Speaker, how much money is at stake for this project? Where will it come from? Who are the identified stakeholders in this proposal? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in answering this question, we are not committed to this idea until the project is concluded, when the facilities will have to be abandoned and moved off site after the pipeline is built. So in order for us to make our expenditure -- there are no expenditures needed at the front end. The expenditure will be done at the back end. The rough estimate of what we were looking at is $90 million from the federal government. We assume that it is going to cost us in the range of…it depends on the negotiations. I think that we do have to be able to meet that. I have already met with the federal Minister on that. The majority of these costs will be earned through federal programs, through CMHC and other federal dollars that are out there. That is how we are looking at funding this.

We are trying to make sure that we get third party funding for this. It is not done in house. If anything, we may have to have some additional funds in regard to land development costs and whatnot. We may have to work with the municipalities or community governments that deal with that. That is sort of where we are at with this project.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are getting a bit more information. Now we know that we have about 1,400 units with some $121 million potentially from the GNWT, and $90 million from the Government of Canada, plus land development costs. So that gives us some idea of the scale and the scope. Mr. Speaker, as the Minister has pointed out, the pipeline is not yet a given, as much as we all hope that it will be. What we know now is that things are a little on the hypothetical side. When could we anticipate that these units would begin to be made available and put on site? What is the time frame we are looking at here? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if the project goes according to time schedules, we are hoping to look at this project proceeding somewhere in 2010.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

So 2010 and out. So, arguably, that is at least five years from now. That’s fine. It gives us a time frame now, so we have some ideas about cost, quantity and time frame.

Mr. Speaker, just about any other major infrastructure project that we hear about anywhere else in Canada or the world, one of the things that goes along with it is the investment in our own backyard if we are getting maximum benefit from this. Now, ATCO doesn’t have a manufacturing centre here in the North, at least at this time. Is it a safe assumption here that this proposal will include big time investment here in the NWT, so that the workers, suppliers, jobs and benefits are not going to accrue to that ATCO plant that is in our neighbouring province of Alberta? Are we going to get that investment benefit here? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have made it clear to ATCO and the other parties that we would like to have some sort of benefit that will flow through the North. I know that there have been councillors from Hay River meeting with ATCO and looking at the possibility of establishing some sort of a plant structure in Hay River. I think that it is important that we are able to work with the parties and allow the respective community leaders to meet with the different companies and see exactly what they are willing to put out. We have made it clear that we would like to ensure that there are spin-offs from this, that we also consider the human resource side of not only looking at the transition of conversion, but also look at the possibility of building certain facilities that are going to be required for this pipeline in the North. Presently, there are discussions going on between the different parties such as I mentioned. Councillors from Hay River have met with the people down in Calgary to look at the possibility of establishing a plant in Hay River.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Time for question period has expired. However, I will allow the Member to ask a supplementary question. Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 159-15(4): Costs of Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we know a lot more about this project today than we did coming into question period. The Minister has told us that a lot of this is contingent on the project going ahead, but still there are certain commitments that are to be expected. This is a big project and a very innovative one. We may have to change the way we do some of our business. Are we going to have to make some upfront commitments, potentially years in advance of delivery of these units, in order to live up to our end of this hypothetical deal here? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 159-15(4): Costs Of Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again, we have to realize that we are dealing with different parties dealing with the social impact benefits. What we are hoping to do is have some verbal, if not written, commitment made prior to the decision to go forward with the pipeline, and also making sure that when the decisions are made on wherever these camps are going to be, that at the end of the project, we will have the ability to take those over at a negotiated price, working with the federal government to get the resources we will need for this project in the next five years. We need to get these legal agreements nailed down. I am hoping to have a meeting with the federal Minister in early November, and a meeting with the parties who are having these discussions, as we speak, regarding CMHC, ATCO, Imperial and other groups. We do have a committee overseeing this. We are trying to meet the timelines we are looking at. So, hopefully, we will have an agreement shortly, so we can see this project come to fruition.