Debates of February 25, 2005 (day 44)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, it seems like this entire decision, with respect to the justice system, has all been based on cost savings. I have to say again today, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe those numbers. The $400,000; how that number was arrived at and how it was calculated is just not sound math or calculation in my opinion.

Mr. Speaker, I want an in-depth analysis of how much this is actually going to save. Because that is what we have narrowed it down to. This is only about saving money, this is not about fairness or decentralized services or serving people close to where they live. This is only about money. So let’s talk about money.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, when we look at how the Minister calculated this $400,000 savings to shut down the remand, it was based on 5.5 positions of casual employees at $76,000 per position. Surely we have attendance records, we have payroll records to go back on. I want to know what the exact numbers are. I don’t want to take a nice round number like 76 and multiply it by 5.5 and say that is what we are saving. The Minister, even today, is using words like, give or take, $10,000 here, $10,000 there. He used words like, we think. I don’t care about we think. I want to know what we know. Surely we have enough historical data…

Hear! Hear!

…to come up with a real number on what these savings look like. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My figures are based on historical data. However, we could get two or three more remand customers next year, or two or three less, so the numbers will change. They won’t be exact over the next year. The numbers that have been presented to the Member are in fact based on historical evaluations. We took the logs from South Mackenzie Correctional Centre and looked at how many times inmates have been in and out for remand or in and out for appearances in court, and used those numbers.

Yes, there has been an in-depth look, but I can’t predict exactly how many people we are going to have next year. This is based on historical data. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister is absolutely right. He cannot predict, but I think it is very interesting that information that came from his department indicates that the Department of Justice does not anticipate any increase in crime as a result of the pipeline or any major resource development.

Mr. Speaker, I don’t know which newspaper the Minister reads or which news broadcast he listens to, and I would like to suggest to you that he may not have a crystal ball, but I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out there is going to be a greater demand on our justice services of the next little while.

Hear! Hear!

I know he can’t predict the future, but I still do not believe these numbers and, Mr. Speaker, even the $18,000 that is supposed to be allocated for transportation, who actually pays for the transportation of the inmates to Yellowknife, back and forth now for court appearances? Who pays that bill? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The RCMP are responsible for prisoner transportation in the Northwest Territories. Our agreement with the RCMP is that the NWT government pays 70 percent of the cost of the contract, and the federal government pays 30 percent of the cost of that contract. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So based on historical information of the number of remand clients that are now located in Hay River, the Minister is telling me that 70 percent of the cost of transportation does not exceed $18,000, based on historical use of that service. Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What we are saying is that we think that the transportation of people on remand can be accommodated for very close to that number. Again I am saying it is plus or minus. If we have a few more or a few less, it will change. Yes, based on historical data, that number is pretty close to what is expected. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

So, Mr. Speaker, if I were to get the numbers of the inmates in remand in Hay River for the last year and then take the 2.1 times to reappear and go back in court, and multiply it by 70 percent, the Minister is going to tell us in the House today that that is not going to exceed $18,000. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 489-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are some variables here too. Mrs. Groenewegen a few days ago gave an example which involved using scheduled aircraft. If all of the Hay River remand prisoners were to use scheduled aircraft with RCMP escorts to appear 2.18 times in front of a judge, then the number would be in the area of $20,000.

However, the RCMP plane also has to be factored into that. There is a significant reduction in cost if the RCMP plane is used for transporting prisoners. I can say that every time I have seen the plane in Hay River, it has had somebody that has been escorted back or is getting on.

The RMCP also factors into that. Even if we were to use scheduled transportation and factor in the cost of the matron for supervision in the cells, yes, we are talking within 10 percent of the number that we have.