Debates of October 19, 2006 (day 11)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today on a point of privilege. Yesterday in the House I clearly heard and saw the Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger, threaten me and members of my family. I feel that my privileges have been breached because all Members have the right to sit in this Legislature and carry out their duties free from threats, intimidation, obstruction or interference. The Minister’s words and gestures, in my mind, constituted a threat to my wife and my brother’s livelihood. He pointed his finger squarely in my direction like this and said quite clearly, "your wife, your brother" and gestured with his hand like that, Mr. Speaker. I find this breach extremely disturbing in the sense that my wife and my brother cannot defend themselves nor are they protected by parliamentary privilege.

In my 10 years in politics, Mr. Speaker, at both the municipal and territorial levels, I have never witnessed such a gross breach of conduct. The Minister, in his attempt to explain his remarks, at page 690 of the unedited Hansard stated: “However, my intention is not to threaten the Member. It’s to make a point to reflect those facts. If I have caused him discomfort or caused him any unhappiness, then I would be very happy to withdraw that particular comment as it may be recorded in Hansard. My intention is not to drag his spouse into this, but just to point out that there is a clear connection.”

Those very comments of the Minister constitute an unjust damaging of my good name and act as a further impediment to me in carrying out my duties as a Member, and they prevent me and any Member from speaking freely in this Chamber. I truly believe this is paramount to our privileges as Members, that we are able to state our views and those of our constituents free from intimidation and threat, Mr. Speaker. I await your ruling on this very important matter. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Ramsay has risen on a point of privilege, which is a very serious matter. I will, therefore, allow some debate on the point of privilege. To the point of privilege. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House, I made reference to two individuals. This was a conversation, as I sat in my chair, as Mr. Ramsay was talking. Those

comments were not on the record, but when he called the point of order I recognized, very clearly, that I had caused him some unhappiness, that I had spoken inappropriately to the point where he wanted to call a point of order.

I thought it would be incumbent upon me to do the right thing, which is stand up and acknowledge that, yes, there were comments made and that I was prepared to withdraw them. Those comments referenced two individuals. As a long-serving Member of this House, I should have been more aware that my comments were not only inappropriate, but potentially hurtful.

I recognized that fact when I stood up to withdraw them when the House broke. I also went up to find Mr. Ramsay and to personally apologize for those comments. In the heat of political battle, Mr. Speaker, and debate, we can sometimes be guilty of using words against those who cannot defend themselves. Mr. Ramsay has the right to stand and defend his family, and I believe Mr. Ramsay and I share deeply the belief that family is the most important aspect of our lives. I say that as a father and grandfather and a man who has been married for nearly 32 years.

I would once again like to apologize to Mr. Ramsay and his family for any distress my comments have caused and I, of course, deeply regret using a personal comment to address a political issue. Once again, I indicate I would, without reservation, withdraw those comments.

I would also like to assure my constituents that I will work harder than ever to ensure that your interests are represented and that, as a Cabinet member, they can be proud of my work ethic and my commitment to the people of the NWT. Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the Members of this House accept my apology offered with no qualification and unreservedly, and be very well assured that I am aware of the distress my comments have caused and I deeply regret that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.  Political life is something that we all enter into because we seek to do something for ourselves, for our communities, for our families, and it can be tremendously rewarding and satisfying when things go right. Good things in life and the satisfaction and the respect that can come from engaging in this does not come cheap. There is always a price to pay. We all walk a fine line every day, depending on the issues or the subjects or the problems that are before us, and we do what we think is right. Of course, that does not always work with everybody, so there are consequences to this kind of thing, to our own reputations, sometimes to our own sense of self-worth and self-respect. You know, we are constantly asking ourselves did I do the right thing that day, that time, that moment.

Mr. Speaker, along with that goes a level of, I guess, risk and faith and trust and belief from those who are closest to us, our families, our colleagues, our friends in our communities and in our neighbourhoods. They, too, can sometimes be drawn into this because of their affiliations with us. They endure perceptions that may not be correct. They, I think, are sometimes under degrees of suspicion and sometimes exclusion from what they might otherwise enjoy in a community, because of their affiliations with us. We all know that, I think, when we get into this game, and our families should too.

But it is something that we have to be very vigilant, very mindful, that when in formal session and on the record in chambers like this, that connections or aspersions are made to families, that it is absolutely inappropriate. One of the things that I think this House, this Assembly, has been vigilant on is not to allow that to happen. And when it does, as it did yesterday, it is something that we need to bring out, we need to deal with, and set the standard that works not only for us, Mr. Speaker, but everybody in all elected fields of life in the Northwest Territories; municipal councils, band councils, these people also and their families take this same risk.

So I want to conclude, Mr. Speaker, by saying I, too, observed Mr. Miltenberger make these remarks and these gestures yesterday. I find it inappropriate, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I, too, observed the proceedings of yesterday and I was very gravely disturbed that the rights of another Member may be even threatened, or even perceived to be threatened, Mr. Speaker, and that's one of the foundations that I find of having the honour and privilege of working in our great Legislature, is that we're free to say and do what we can on behalf of all our constituents, and especially giving up our public life for those that we love and those that share their love with us, Mr. Speaker. They're giving up a lot for us to be up here doing what we have to do on a daily basis, and the last thing a Member needs is to be worried about them and their security.

So I observed that that happened, and I perceived it to happen, as well. And that's a big distinction here, as well, Mr. Speaker. I, too, cannot accept that kind of behaviour from any Member whatsoever. Mahsi cho.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to speak to this point of privilege in the House today. I've been here for a little bit longer than some of the Members on this side of the House and I think I've pretty well seen it all when it comes to different forms of intimidation, threats, I think since I've been here. I take it very seriously, because I think since I've been here I've had my business threatened, I've had my family threatened, I've been threatened. As a matter of fact, there was even an RCMP inquiry had to made into a threat that was made, that somebody actually physically wanted to harm me in my service and in my standing to represent my constituents in this House. That goes back a long ways and I have no intention of standing here and dredging up history; however, I think we have a responsibility to uphold a high standard of integrity and accountability in this government.

It's very unfortunate the events that happened yesterday. I also saw the gesture and I did hear the words. Mr. Miltenberger knows that certainly I think he is one of the hardest working Members on that side of the House and certainly makes a very, very valuable contribution. But having said that, I guess we're all human, we're all susceptible to making errors in judgment, saying things that we wished we hadn't said and doing things that we wished we hadn't done. But when we begin to compromise on the responses that we have when these sorts of things happen, I think we embark on a downward spiral and we lower the bar, and I think that is a dangerous thing for us to do.

It is not always easy for people outside of this Chamber to know all the nuances, and all the workings, and all the different things that go on in the exchanges in this House. Sometimes people say, well, you know, let's just talk about positive things, let's just be constructive. You know, sometimes we have to stop, correct the course, deal with a matter, and then move on.

So I wanted to stand and speak to this today to confirm that I did see the gesture. It was extremely unfortunate and I believe we have to have a very low tolerance for anything that is perceived to intimidate or obstruct Members in the performance of their duty on behalf of their constituents. It is an extremely honourable and high calling and it must be treated with the greatest of respect. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Legislative Assembly is highly regarded as a very respectful place with the people of my own region. They expect a high degree of integrity standards from me as an MLA representing my people. It's an institution that's revered by many people in my region; sometimes not so revered because of the way sometimes we come across in the media and how we say things or do things, or not quite understanding the process of the bureaucracy or the management of certain programs and services. Somewhat, Mr. Speaker, we have a role model. We're playing a role model for people in our communities. We are in a fishbowl, so to speak. Even though we don't want to be in it, we're still in a fishbowl. People make remarks, too. Some are good and some are really, like Mrs. Groenewegen said, are very hurtful. You know, when you walk down any street we're very under the microscope, I could say, and especially in this House here. So there is a lot of respect for Members. Even though we don’t agree sometimes, we still agree to be respectful to the Member across you or sitting next to you. Sometimes we bite our tongue to say something, and sometimes we slip on this. That’s part of being human. We’re not a machine. We’re part of being human. I said to my colleagues that any reference or threat to my family I will take it very seriously. As Mr. Miltenberger has said, he is a father and grandfather and he wants to say to Mr. Ramsay that family is number one important in our life first. They are the ones that help us get to this position here.

So, Mr. Speaker, I ask that you consider the institution as a whole; the integrity is bigger than we are. It must be carried forward, and the institution must be upheld to a high degree of standards and integrity and respect for everyone. That’s a real big word for us in our language; respect. Sometimes even I need to continue learning about the word respect. Sometimes I get told by my own people, and to put it back in the face of respect and sometimes I don’t think it’s the way they should be going, but my people, the ones who put me here, I have to listen to them and be respectful to their concerns and their thoughts, Mr. Speaker. That is the degree of leadership that we, as Members of the Legislative Assembly, need to carry out either in this House or in the other meetings that we tend to. I want to say that on the point here that you were speaking about is the word respect and feeling safe.

As Members on this side here, who are in the opposite of Cabinet, that we can talk freely, we can say what’s in our heart, what’s on our mind, without any type of perceived or any type of repercussion on our families, our communities, or in our role as a region. We have to talk on behalf of our people. It is not us personally, and that’s what the elders said. You speak on our behalf, so do not be afraid to say what you have to say, you know? But sometimes the balance, and I don’t quite know the balance. Is it me or is it my people sometimes speaking? Sometimes I may not come across very clear or in a way that the Ministers understand it, but I’m also learning, too. I’m grateful that they’re respectful enough to answer some of my questions. Trying to figure out, well, this is what he’s saying.

So I wanted to say that the House here, Mr. Speaker, that I have lots of respect for the Legislative Assembly and for the honourable Members and I think that we need to continue and show that to our people back in our communities that we represent. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think what happened yesterday is really important in regard to what happens in the Assembly here. I, too, did hear and see the Minister point to Members on this side, especially to a particular Member here, and I find that very disappointing and appalling. You know, we’re all sitting here as Members to represent the people of our constituency and the NWT. I think it’s only fair that whether you’re sitting on this side of the House or sitting on the other side, that we have respect for all our Members and families. To hear a Member on the other side doing something like this, you know, I think to the people of the Northwest Territories, it shouldn’t happen.

I respect my colleagues here. Like some of the Members said already, that, you know, I do represent the people of Nunakput and I also represent people in the Territories as a whole as we sit down in this Assembly.

So just having said that, Mr. Speaker, on the point of privilege, I think the Minister’s comments that came out yesterday and the gestures shouldn’t be tolerated in a place like this. So I’m very disappointed. It shouldn’t be tolerated and I think we should move on from there. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Monfwi, Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today we’re talking about the point of privilege that we’re faced with of what happened yesterday. What happened yesterday is a very serious issue that we’re faced with. We’ve all seen it. Some of us heard it, of what took part. Here we may have rules like gesture equals recording. We’ve seen it and we’ve heard it and it’s uncalled for. As Cabinet Members, you know, there’s accountability. We’re accountable to the public, the general public at large, and also our constituents, 43,000 people living in the Northwest Territories. My fear is that if it happened yesterday, is it going to happen again tomorrow or today? We must prevent that from happening again. We have to show respect, from over there, across the table here. There’s no need for this gesturing or passing notes, getting each other frustrated or mad, whatever it may be. But we have to hold on to our profession. How we deal with issues, we may be frustrated at times, mad, on dealing with certain issues. Especially Mr. Minister that has one of the biggest portfolios, we understand his situation, what he’s going through but, at the same time, dealing with issues has to be at a professional level.

Family, again, comes first. I fear for my wife as a teacher. I fear for the kids in the community. I fear for those that are going to be nurses in the communities, lay dispensers, community health reps. They’re not here to defend themselves. Even though it’s remarks let’s say to Mr. Ramsay from Kam Lake, are remarks to all of us sitting around this table. It’s remarks to CHRs, lay dispensers in the communities.

So I take a real offence to this, that this came out. I’m very disappointed in this government that we’re faced with. So I’d just like to show my disappointment and that we must show respect. As Norman Yakeleya indicated earlier, our elders have always showed us respect; respect for one another. So I’d just like to elaborate on the point of privilege that was put forward. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to add my comments to the point of privilege being raised by Mr. Ramsay. He stated some of the circumstances related to this yesterday when he raised a point of order and at the time we didn’t have the records or more objective evidence as to exactly what happened. But I think listening to the comments being said today and also the statement that the Minister made yesterday, and the fact that we do have witnesses in Mrs. Groenewegen and Mr. Pokiak and some other Members, I think that there’s enough statements on record that suggest that there is no question about what happened. Something did happen and what happened is a threat on the part of the Minister to the economic security and well-being of the family members.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that I believe that the Minister is very sincere in his regrets and apologies, and although I think some of my constituents might not agree, because there’s, in the Minister’s job you can’t make everybody happy. I’m sure there are many who feel that the Minister might not be, might not have done the greatest job, but I have to tell you, in watching his work day in and day out here I don’t think there’s any dispute that he’s a hardest working Member and he’s one of the better performing Ministers. So I don’t think there is any question about his performance as a Minister. But I think he’s also aware of the seriousness of the Members being threatened in this House for doing what we have been elected by the people to do.

Mr. Speaker, on many occasions as a Member here in my time of seven years, I have raised points of privilege on my right to be a Member and do my job and to have the freedom to speak. There is a long tradition in our parliamentary tradition to put mechanisms, laws and rules in place to protect that. There is a reason why the Members cannot be sued for things we do say in this Chamber. We have a wide room for privilege, so we do have the right to speak on behalf of constituents. There are consequences of us doing our job. We are threatened. I have been personally threatened by supporters of Ministers. My family members have been threatened. There is a daily intimidation going around because sometimes what we do here and the laws we make or the questions we ask could cost people jobs. I don’t mean…Policies could affect people’s businesses and people come and do express and sometimes we feel intimidated by doing things we are sent here to do.

It is a very unfortunate moment. I regret that this has happened. I don’t know what happened yesterday. It was one of those moments in time, things that the Minister regrets and that the Minister should not have done, but when it comes to the freedom of Members to function fully, in order to speak for people who cannot speak for themselves, whether they are employees, businesses or people on the street, sometimes they are scared of coming and telling us what they want us to bring up. The last thing we need in the well-being of democracy that we value and the system of government we value, we have to be very careful when the right of Members to speak on these issues are in any way intimidated.

I am sure, Mr. Speaker, you will use your resources to look at the very well established precedence in this regard. I don’t think there is a question about the facts of the case. I await your ruling on this, but I do have to say this is a very serious issue, very regrettable, and it is very unfortunate that it happened, but it is something that we do have to stand up and be accountable for. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the point of order. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we take great pains sometimes in refraining from speaking about some parts of the government because everybody, I am pretty sure on this side of the House and probably on that side, have someone they know working within the government. We feel that we can’t ask questions or make comments on certain parts of the government for fear of something like what happened yesterday. You can talk about our ability or inability as Members and the way we present ourselves here, but I believe, Mr. Speaker, when you mention a person’s family or you perceive to be making threats towards a person’s family, you cross a fine line. I back Mr. Ramsay up 100 percent in bringing this forward. Anybody who would like to protect their family wouldn’t stand for anything like this.

So, Mr. Speaker, I think it’s an unfortunate incident, but I can understand where my colleague is coming from and I commend him for it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also have to express my dismay at what happened yesterday here in the House. I know everything here spoke in this room is public and any gestures that are made in this House are made to the public also and not just to Members sitting here today. Just on that point, Mr. Speaker, if something like that takes place in this House, which is obviously not allowable, what kind of message is that going to send to the public when people that actually have concerns with government operations, government programs and the delivery of services, when they write a Minister a letter concerning a friend, relative or family member who is employed in that same department that they have concerns with, what kind of message is that going to send to them? They are going to say I don’t want to write that letter because I have family members that are actually working there. Even though I don’t like the service, I don’t want to get them in trouble. That was shown to us here yesterday of people who are actually going to start thinking like that because they don’t want to raise the concerns with anybody anymore, especially in this department, because of my family works there. They are employees and they have some kind of connection to that department. I think that will send a bad message out to the people of the NWT.

I know the ability for us to distance ourselves from issues that may seem too close to home is a trade in itself and it’s a real privilege to be able to stand here and be able to walk on that fine line which allows us to bring issues that we discuss in our own living rooms with our own family members about how government operates. These issues are sometimes, nine times out of 10, overshadowed by the fact that we are a small territory. Every issue that we do raise, there is some connection; some connection that is not at arm’s length for everybody. This government has been in operation for 40-plus years. We all know the dynamics of how the issues are brought forward and how they should be dealt with. I think that whole dynamic and all the things we have been working to achieve has been breached yesterday. It has kind of knocked us back into the dark ages of diplomacy and consensus government. Therefore, I can’t help but offer my support to the Member that is bringing this point of privilege forward. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This situation reminds me of the old saying that you can pick your friends, but you can’t pick your family. Mr. Speaker, the public picks us, our friends pick us, our families pick us to all come to this Assembly as a family and to work together. Like many things, events in real life, things happen that we regret. I can personally tell you that I regret seeing what happened yesterday. I can feel the concern that Mr. Ramsay has. You can hear it in his voice.

That said, I also feel the sincerity from the Minister of his regret, because he made it quite clear, without restriction and without any qualification, he truly withdrew his comments. I can see it. He is a good man and I can see that he truly meant his apology. I certainly hope that we can all work together beyond this point. I really felt that, so I want to acknowledge that.

I can personally tell you, Mr. Speaker, that sometimes when unfounded suggestions are played out, sometimes even in the public, it is really distressing on the family. Again, whether you are completely found innocent or unfounded of any suggestion, your family takes quite a thrashing regardless of how it’s been drawn out and spit out. They are the backbone and they prop us up every day. Sometimes it’s when you kiss your kids on the way out the door, you just can’t wait to get home to see them again and you say I just can’t believe I got through this day.

It’s difficult standing here in the sense that it makes me think of how important my family is and how distressing it is, because they carry stress as much as we do, but again their hands are tied by the situation. It gives them no chance to help us defend our causes. I asked myself then, what happens when it’s not my name being thrashed around by the public, either by the press or other Members? What happens if it was my family’s name? I am going to have to stand with my Members today. I underscore that I honestly feel the Minister’s apology. I don’t think that should ever be forgotten that he does sincerely apologize, but unfortunate events have happened and we will have to see how the House proceeds. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the point of privilege. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would really like to sincerely thank my colleagues here on this side of the House for their courage and conviction to speak to this very important issue. Mr. Speaker, I look forward to your ruling on this important issue. Thank you. Mahsi.