Debates of October 24, 2006 (day 14)

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I move that Bill 14 be amended by striking out item 12 of the appendix and substituting items 11.1 and 12 as set out in the schedule to this motion.

Madam Chair, I seek unanimous consent to have the schedule to this motion deemed read and printed in Hansard in its entirety. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The Member is seeking unanimous consent to have the schedule to his motion deemed read and printed in Hansard in its entirety. Are there any nays? There are no nays so that is accomplished and we will distribute the motion here for the benefit of Members.

Schedule

11.1 Behchoko

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 11605 meridian of longitude and the 6253 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6253 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11555 meridian of longitude; thence south along the 11555 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6249 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 6249 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11605 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11605 meridian of longitude to the point of commencement.

12. Monfwi

Consisting of all that portion of the Northwest Territories bounded as follows: Commencing at the intersection of the 65th parallel of latitude and the 120th meridian of longitude; thence south along the 120th meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6215 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6215 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11420 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11420 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 622430 parallel of latitude; thence west along the 622430 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11431 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11431 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6230 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6230 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11426 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11426 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 6255 parallel of latitude; thence east along the 6255 parallel of latitude to its intersection with the 11230 meridian of longitude; thence north along the 11230 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the Nunavut-Northwest Territories boundary (Lat. 6530 N; Long. 11230 W); thence northwesterly along that boundary to its intersection with the 11600 meridian of longitude at the 6640 parallel of latitude, approximately; thence south along the 11600 meridian of longitude to its intersection with the 65th parallel of latitude; thence west along the 65th parallel of latitude to the point of commencement.

Excluding the electoral district of Behchokö.

The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair…(English not provided)

Madam Chair, I'd just to rephrase what I've said in my language about the importance of having an additional seat for Tlicho, as I presented here in motion format.

Madam Chair, with respect to what Members are saying around the table here and the vote that came into play, I understand the status quo position, especially from the outlying communities and the stress for the funding going to the communities. But at the same time, we, as the Tlicho Government and I representing Monfwi, try to work around the status quo of 19 Members. We met with the Akaitcho leadership back in September. We made some progress in that area, and the next level was another meeting with Akaitcho and the Tlicho, the chiefs and the grand chiefs, and we did meet in that area just a couple weeks back, discussing further how we can approach this issue. We presented to the Akaitcho leadership and the Yellowknife chiefs, both chiefs, were fully supportive of our initiative, and the same with Fort Res. Fort Res was somewhat being supportive, but he had to consult with his constituents and another chief from Lutselk'e.

So at that time, we left the table feeling that there was confidence in the room. But at the same time, Madam Chair, when we came back there was some discussion that took place and this issue was before us. It was a pressing issue and I had to get some confirmation from the chiefs in Yellowknife, but, unfortunately, there wasn't any agreement between the Akaitcho leadership.

So that left us with an option of going on our own to present this motion for a Tlicho seat. I stress in my language the importance of having a seat for the Tlicho riding, because I speak for the elders, I speak for members, the youth; it's not my words. Those words are the guidance and direction I'm given from my constituents. The leadership are currently in a Tlicho Government assembly in Behchoko and they'll be hearing stories tomorrow how this turns out with the motion.

But like I said, the status quo, like I've told some Members, we really need to focus in the smaller communities that we're representing. I've already stated my opinion in an earlier statement. I've touched on various issues. So I'd just like to leave it at that, just finalizing that this important motion is before the Members and I hope the Members will consider it. I'll leave it at that. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Next I have Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This whole process has been very interesting. I'm sure that anyone who is watching us perhaps via some of the communication, or will take the time to look at Hansard and the record of the debate this afternoon, will tell that there has been a lot of strategy and a lot of different options looked at to arrive at where we are going today. Part of that for me, Madam Chair, was working with Mr. Lafferty to see where potentially our two communities could work together or support each other in achieving the recommendation from the boundaries commission. As Mr. Lafferty indicated to the Assembly or to committee earlier, there was, indeed, support from his leaders to do that, and I know that from my communities this is reciprocated. However, the amendment that was just defeated here shows that there was not enough support across the Legislative Assembly for that, and I respect the decision of my colleagues and their communities in taking that position.

Madam Chair, I further respect Mr. Lafferty's move now to go forward and attain the single new seat for his riding that his people have asked him to work for. But it is with deep regret that I would say that I have to vote against that amendment, and the regret truly is that we cannot see our mutual concerns, mutual interests, satisfied here. In sort of straightforward terms, Madam Chair, the signals that I've got from my colleagues here in the Legislative Assembly this afternoon mean that even if Mr. Lafferty's amendment passes, I am prepared to make another amendment to seek a new seat for Yellowknife and I really don't think that will pass. So what I'm doing, Madam Chair, is reverting to the status quo, to the bill as presented, and that will be my position. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to say to the Member for Monfwi, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the job that he's done in the last while, trying to get an additional seat for his riding in Behchoko, and I have a great deal of respect, as well, for the leadership in the Monfwi riding and the Tlicho people. However, Madam Chair, I regret that I will not be able to support this amendment because I, too, have a constituency to represent in the city of Yellowknife and without another seat for Yellowknife, I cannot support any additional seats outside of Yellowknife, Madam Chair. That will be my stance on this.

I don't know if I have too much more to add. I think the discussion we're having here today is a good one. It seems a little bit backward to me, though, Madam Chair, in that I believe we probably could have saved ourselves some time and energy if we had just went to the bill as presented to us here today. But again, we're dealing with the amendment and, sorry, Mr. Lafferty, I can't support the amendment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for the record, I just want to state my position on this motion. I would also like to thank the Member for Monfwi, and I'd also like to thank the Member for Great Slave. I know they have been working very closely to get a consensus in this regard. I mean we all worked on it, but I'd like to especially mention them.

I think we're having very good discussions here and I have to tell you that given the will of the House that just has been shown where the motion to accept the commission's recommendation has been defeated, I think that the picture is quite clear, that the will of the House is that we will stay status quo, which is what is reflected in Bill 14. So having seen that outcome, I think now my position has to be that I will stay with the status quo and agree with Bill 14.

I'd like to state, once again, that my instruction and guiding principle here on this bill is instruction I've received from my constituents and the general will of Yellowknifers. I think most Yellowknifers agree that they do not want to see government grow or that Yellowknife needs another seat. However, if there is any increase outside of Yellowknife, there has to be a comparable increase to secure voting parity.

This motion I cannot support and I regret that I cannot support that. I would support it if the motion included an amendment to change the seating for Yellowknife and make voting parity possible for a Yellowknife riding, but that's not the case. So as it is written, I cannot support it and I would like to personally send my appreciation to Grand Chief George Mackenzie, Chiefs Lafferty, Nitsiza, Football and Gon, for having really done their job of letting the commission know that. Tlicho are known for their advocacy and I think it's a good thing. It makes their positions known on every issue wherever they go. They've done the same here and I regret that we were not able to entertain that, but I'm going to go with the will of the House and I will be voting down any motion that's not in support of this. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Next on the list I've got Mr. Dent to the amendment. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It has been an interesting discussion this afternoon and I know that there's been a lot of weight on the cost of more Members in this House. I know my constituents have told me that they agree that they're not anxious to see the cost of representation go up. I know somebody today said more Members won't bring in more money. I think that was probably the Minister of Finance…

---Laughter

…but he's absolutely right; they won't. But what we're talking about here is not just about representation. My colleague Mr. McLeod made some very strong arguments about how people in the smaller communities, representatives from the smaller communities have a much tougher time talking to their constituents and representing them. They have a different function in many ways than MLAs from Yellowknife do. I appreciate that; I respect that; and I agree with him that if that isn't being addressed through the MLA Compensation Commission, we need to find some way to address that, whether it's improved travel expenses, or improved constituency assistant expenses for other Members. I'm sympathetic, because I agree that we all need to be able to have reasonable access to our constituents. We need to be able to do our jobs.

But what we're talking about here today is not about representation. I know that's tough to think about, but the Constitution of Canada doesn't say that we're supposed to have representation based on how easily we can get hold of our constituents, or how easily they can get hold of us, or on how we do our jobs. It's not about people's voices being heard even, or access. What it really is, is the Supreme Court has said that the first issue around representation is around relative parity of voting power. That means that my vote in this House is supposed to be relatively equal to that of every other Member, and if it's not the courts have said that there's a problem.

Now, this House has made very clear today that there is no interest in increasing the numbers in our next Legislative Assembly as we go forward. I think that we probably should have accepted the recommendations of the commission, but given that that has been rejected, I know that it would be very, very risky for us to agree to increase in a constituency outside of Yellowknife and not increase within Yellowknife, because then you would be really affecting the relative parity of the votes. Therefore, even though I, too, have travelled in the Tlicho region and I have been lobbied by people in the communities of Whati and Gameti to support an extra seat for the Monfwi region, because of the importance of the relative parity, I have to apologize to the Member for Monfwi, but I, too, will have to vote against this amendment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list I've got Mr. Hawkins. To the amendment, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will have to be voting against the amendment presented as a motion by the Member for Monfwi. I appreciate his concern and I tried to highlight it in the context of my statement earlier, which is I think he's in a very difficult position because people from the whole Tlicho Nation are expecting him to deliver results, although again I have to underscore that they don't all live within the boundaries or the prescribed boundaries of the Tlicho Nation. So I appreciate the extra workload he carries.

I actually thought the most interesting presentation put on the table today was by the Member for Deh Cho, Minister McLeod. It was really unique that someone would bring a different dynamic to the argument which would be talking strictly about the basis of being able to do your job and how difficult it is, and sometimes that can't be recognized in the sense of just voter parity and the sense of numbers. I thought that was a very interesting point of view.

I had to support the earlier motion because it was about correcting the line of voter parity and collecting the disproportional representation. I see Mr. Lafferty is trying to do that in his own way, although I give him credit for that.

Although I don't really have much more to offer, Mr. Chairman, I do say that voting against this still emphasis that this Assembly believes in programs over politics and I think that's a very important statement.

If there was one last thing I'd say, which is the Tlicho people need to realize that their Member, Mr. Lafferty, he's almost like that old toy you could box with and he kept bouncing back and fighting this issue and saying he needs the support and representation. Regardless of how people sort of said that they would vote or wouldn't vote, or what they could support, or what balance they would or wouldn't, the bottom line is Mr. Lafferty kept trumpeting this issue even though it looked like it was miles and miles against him. So to his credit this amendment is before the House and the folks should realize that he has fought significantly hard to get this on the table. So, Mr. Chairman, to that, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the amendment. Anything further?

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Chairman, could we have a recorded vote?