Debates of June 1, 2005 (day 6)

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, my questions are also to the Minister of Finance and it is not in regard to an item before the Committee of the Whole, but in regard to the budget for 2004-05 which has passed. It is in regard to the money for TTC. Madam Speaker, it is only yesterday, I believe, I finally figured out that the money that this Assembly had voted on, as Mr. Braden had stated, $2.4 million was in fact not spent. It was last November that the government started looking at the possibility of moving this. My general question is how do we as MLAs have any confidence that the money we vote for, for a capital project for something as big as $2.4 million, is going to stay there and get done as it was meant to be? How could a Member for Nahendeh be confident that if he ever managed to get money for the gym in his small community -- for granny from Nahanni…

Ever.

…how could he ever be certain that thing is going to be built and that the government is not going to just put it off and just let it lapse and then change its mind? How can we do our jobs in that way? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Good.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse Of Allocated Funding For GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the budget as it's laid out and is brought before this House and voted upon gives the government the authority to spend the money on the projects identified. If those projects do not proceed in a timely fashion, then we come back to this Assembly and in the form of a supplementary appropriation to record the amount of capital carryovers for O and M money that was not used in the fiscal year it was identified and we request the carryover. That happens on an annual basis. One of the first bills we bring before this House in a supplementary document is capital carryovers because for one reason or another, whether it is delay in the planning or a change in the scope of the project or not being able to find a contractor that will do the job with the dollars identified, the project gets delayed and we have to seek approval from this Assembly to carry that money over for those projects. That happens on a regular basis.

As well, in this particular project, when this money was identified and carried over from past years, it was, I believe, at that point known that there were other facilities being looked at as possible areas to move this centre into. One of those would have been the Somba K'e facility that is on the outskirts of Yellowknife. The department was looking at other possible locations already to try and see if it could come up with a facility that would work. As this opportunity it had come available, the department had looked at that and has done some feasibility work in that area and has brought it forward. On that basis, we have accepted it and are now again coming before this Assembly for approval for moving the dollars. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 74-15(4): Lapse Of Allocated Funding For GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I learned via some people in the TTC that apparently DPW came by and poked about 82 holes in this building and never really came back and told them what was right or wrong with this building. In the meantime, the political masters are trying to figure out what to do with this.

I would like to state, Madam Speaker, when we are debating the budget in this House, Ministers fight tooth and nail for every dollar. Members on this side cannot change anything. They convince us that they need this; the sky will fall if it just doesn't get approved. Then we get told a year later we never spent it. There were all sorts of reasons why we could not spend it and we want to change it. Does the Minister, as the Minister responsible for public financing, think that that is the right way to approve and spend expenditures in this Assembly? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Finance. That question borders on asking your opinion about processes and policies that are already in place with respect to financial administration, but I will let you answer the question.

Further Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse Of Allocated Funding For GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I guess to stick to the process, we have followed the rules that are in place. From time to time the Ministers' departments have need to change the plan that has been presented before the House and it has to come back to this House for approval. At this stage, a political decision has been made and agreed to, but now to move the actual dollars we need the approval of this House. We’re following the rules that are set out and we’re seeking the approval of this Assembly. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’m glad to see that the Minister is straightforward enough to admit that this was a political decision, because I was thinking that listening to the Minister’s answers. Of course there will be situations where capital projects cannot proceed. We could miss the barge deadline, we could have all sorts of administrative and logistical problems where the construction cannot proceed, but I don’t think people out there are happy to see a capital project being moved around for political reasons. Even if the government spends $5,000 over, they have to report to us. Would the Minister consider changing the rules so that there cannot be under-expenditure or lapsing of money for as much as 2.4 million? Maybe the limit should be $500,000 and if you don’t spend it, you lose it. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Roland.

Further Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I think in this arena and on the floor of this House we would be silly to say that decisions made in this House were not political ones. That is the nature of the environment we are in and decisions are made based on departments bringing forward substantiation for it. As for changing the rules to only limit $500,000 for being lapsed or carried over and lapsing the rest, we’d find ourselves in the situation we are today. As the year ended, that money would have lapsed. We would have to come forward; the departments would have to come forward for substantiation of a new project. In fact, in this particular case, the substantiation will go forward as we go into the next business plan rounds and budget development because it is, again, future years, but the initial planning money is being asked for through the supplementary appropriation document from this House. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think it’s absolutely appalling, Madam Speaker, that the Minister would say that for political reasons, not even in this House but on the Cabinet table, that they could move a capital project as big as $2.4 million for political reasons. I’d like to ask the Minister of Finance, as a Finance Minister in charge of numbers, whether he’s asked for any information in making his decision about what extra costs would be for the government in moving this program. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Roland.

Further Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as any Minister would bring forward, if it is the request, the approval of dollars would come to the FMB table if it is approval seeking direction, other than that it would go to the Cabinet table. In this case this has come to both. The information provided by the Minister requesting this was to proceed with this track and it was granted on the basis of then going forward and getting the approvals of this Assembly through the financial process, and that’s what we’re into right now. Thank you.