Debates of February 24, 2005 (day 43)

Good afternoon, colleagues. Item 2, Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the Members and the general public of a change to the planned implementation of the new rent scale.

Mr. Speaker, in 1995, the public housing rent scale moved from a flat rate of 25 percent of income to a sliding scale of between 6.4 percent and 30 percent. This was done to bring our public housing sector more in line with other jurisdictions across the country and to ensure that public housing remained available to clients in need. This change was originally scheduled to take place over a four-year period from 1995 to 1998 but was halted after only the second year by the government-of-the-day.

As Members are aware, the 2005-06 budget for the NWT Housing Corporation calls for this moratorium to be lifted and for the final phase-in to be completed. Our original plan was to make this final change over a two-year period with the largest element of the change taking place in year one. Based on concerns raised by Members, I am pleased to announce a new implementation schedule which will spread any changes equally over a two-year period.

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Under this new schedule, Mr. Speaker, tenant rent will average 13 percent of household income. This is well below rents in other jurisdictions where 25 percent to 30 percent of household income is charged for public housing. Over 86 percent of our tenants will see increases of less than $100 a month and over 66 percent of tenants, including all students and people receiving income support, will see no rent increases.

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As always, Mr. Speaker, seniors will continue to pay no rent for public housing.

It is my hope that the Members of this Legislature will support this new implementation plan. Information on the rent scale implementation is available by contacting local housing organizations or through my office. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I rise to talk about shelters or what some people in this House might call housing.

---Laughter

I like to use the term “shelter,” because in many instances, that is exactly what people are living in, not a home or a house but an enclosure that protects the occupants from the natural elements.

Mr. Speaker, many of my constituents, especially families with children, are housed in squalid and unhealthy conditions. Their living conditions negatively affect their family fabric which holds them together. By this, I mean families are considering splitting because this will make public housing more accessible for them to move into.

Mr. Speaker, this is not an isolated incident and it’s certainly not an issue that’s new to the local housing authorities in our communities. People are taking drastic measures to deal with housing issues, measures that have long-term effects on all family members of the household, especially the children.

In most cases where I have been informed from conversations with my constituents, it’s solely based on the lack of community consultation and support from the housing department for families who are living in extremely old and deteriorated housing units. It seems like the Housing Corporation is still revelling about the fact that they gave a family a house 15 years ago for a mere $5,000 and that they should be happy with that. Well, Mr. Speaker, many of these houses were 40-years-old 15 years ago and because the cost to bring them to an acceptable living standard today is considered too high for the Housing Corporation to invest in, people are left with no other option than to stay where they are or to fix the house themselves. That can be very difficult for a family with three or four kids, with no definite source of income because of high unemployment and little economic development in many of our small communities.

Mr. Speaker, everybody has the right to live in a safe, decent and healthy environment. I will ask the Minister of Housing to make a commitment to the residents of the NWT for a fair and impartial process in the consideration of housing needs of the people regardless of past dealings, a commitment ensuring that housing clients receive solid service reflective of a good government devoid of any prejudice, bias and subjectivity. This is what my constituents ask of this government, to be mindful of the concerns of the residents of this territory to whom the government serves. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today we are attempting to shed some light on the challenges of affordable and accessible housing for northerners. Mr. Speaker, shelter is a basic necessity in life common to every person. In some circumstances, it is necessary for governments to become involved in meeting the needs of our people for adequate housing. As with everything we attempt to do, we are confined by fiscal realities. It is incumbent on us as legislators when developing programs, policies and investing in capital infrastructure, to ensure we balance the need for accountability with the need for flexibility and sensitivity to the realities of the very people we are trying to help.

Our role in meeting the needs of our constituents for basic housing should be a role that provides for fairness in affordability for those with financial challenges, adequacy for persons with special needs related to physical challenges and availability, where options are limited. All of these considerations must be applied with the ever constant factor of the diversity of our communities, urban or remote, market or non-market, et cetera.

Mr. Speaker, we also need to consider whether the shelter we provide is more appropriate through ownership incentives or on the basis of rental. A couple of areas I would like to focus on today are the flexibility that we allow local housing organizations to operate within, in meeting what can be sometimes the unique circumstances in their community and the needs of their clients; and two, how responsive are delivery of housing and investment in capital to the needs of our communities. For example, I believe that some policies have been developed and implemented which have created a serious hardship for public housing tenants. The application in the new rent scale in non-market communities did not provide enough time for tenants to make the transition from rents assessed for low incomes to the higher incomes many have experienced from opportunities created by development that’s taking place.

If there are no houses on the market for sale, we did not give tenants enough time to transition into homeownership without assessing rents that were excessively high. For example, we know that when applying for mortgage financing, the first question asked is related to income: How long have you been employed? So a young couple suddenly blessed with a good job at the diamond mine would need time to consider construction and homeownership or rental options.

To my second point, we can’t afford any housing boondoggles with our limited available capital. Too often we have gone into communities with the government-knows-best attitude to solving housing problems, only to find out later that there weren’t any updates.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude her statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you, colleagues. Mr. Speaker, this has resulted in situations like seniors' complexes sitting empty or underutilized and then market housing mobile units sitting empty.

Much planning and consultation must go into these types of initiatives with the clients they are intended to serve, prior to investing. Capital investment should be approached with a business plan no less thorough than if we were investing our own private money.

Mr. Speaker, I am not suggesting that there are simple solutions to the housing needs. These needs require careful exploration from the benefit of input from affected stakeholders. We can’t afford investments and policies that miss the target of meeting the needs and assuring adequate, affordable and accessible housing for those who depend on us for it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Today, Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House to focus on a serious issue in my riding, and that is the transition from public housing to homeownership. The current NWT Housing Corporation policy on homeownership programs is creating an impossible environment for people to become homeowners.

Mr. Speaker, many of my people are employed with the diamond mines. According to the rent scale increase policy, anyone working at a diamond mine basically has no alternative but to consider homeownership. With household income, their rent will go through the roof with the new rent scale. Until such time as they find alternative solutions, they will be paying the maximum allowable rent for their unit; a huge increase in cost for them.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, if they owe arrears, they have to pay that off, on top of paying the high rent on their public housing unit before they will be considered in good standing with the corporation and eligible for a Homeownership Program. Sounds confusing, doesn't it?

In addition, Mr. Speaker, many people in my riding, because of their employment, were able to purchase trucks, skidoos, et cetera, for travel and hunting. These people didn’t realize that these payments would put them in an undesirable situation of carrying a high debt load. Because of the impact on their net worth, banks won’t even look at them for financing and, depending on the corporation's calculations, neither will they.

Shame

Mr. Speaker, these people have no alternative solution except those available through the NWT Housing Corporation. The core need for North Slave, excluding Yellowknife, is an astonishing 35 percent. We need to address these numbers.

Mr. Speaker, these are just a few scenarios as to what is happening out there with the countless policy barriers to homeownership. My people are being backed up against the wall. The Housing Corporation is supposed to be encouraging and supporting clients' homeownership for high-income public housing tenants, rather than overwhelming them with countless policy barriers to homeownership.

Mr. Speaker, I don’t know of one person who would not want to own their own home. I think that anyone paying rent equal to a mortgage would rather pay into something that they own. Mahsi, thank you.

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Qujannamiik, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You may have noticed that we are having a theme day on housing today. I will be speaking on the need to educate public housing tenants, who may have the financial ability to own their own home, on the dangers and pitfalls of purchasing their unit from the NWT Housing Corporation.

Over the last few years, Mr. Speaker, the NWT Housing Corporation has decided to sell off a number of their older units to those tenants or persons who can afford to maintain their own home. I know of a few elders in Nunakput who have taken on the responsibility of these units, Mr. Speaker.

The Housing Corporation has held a number of workshops for the local housing authority tenant relation officers in their regions and in Yellowknife. Mr. Speaker, the most important thing we have to do is make sure tenants are educated as to the true costs of running a household, paying a mortgage and paying for ongoing maintenance. I know there are a number of people in serious financial trouble because they did not understand the ramifications of signing a long-term mortgage.

Mr. Speaker, these people have told me that it might have worked if the program advisors did an adequate job in explaining that they will be totally responsible for the costs of the mortgages, land leases, taxes, fuel, electricity, water and sewer and ongoing maintenance costs. The point I’m trying to make, Mr. Speaker, is that all the new housing programs in the world will not work if there is not an adequate counselling and education program in place.

Mr. Speaker, we need to do more training of the staff at the local housing authorities, the district offices and headquarters to make sure everyone is adequately trained and ready to effectively counsel and educate public housing tenants who may be ready to move into homeownership. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As some of you know, in another life I had quite a bit to do with the provision of maintenance of housing in the Beaufort-Delta, so I am comfortable in providing my thoughts on what we need to do to provide public housing and affordable housing for those who can afford it.

As I see it, Mr. Speaker, the mandate of the NWT Housing Corporation is very simple: Make sure that there is an adequate amount of public housing for people who need it, and have programs and services available to make housing affordable to northerners. We have enough to do in the Northwest Territories, never mind past mistakes like trying to sell housing packages to Alaska and having the deal fall through and having to pay shipping both ways.

Shame, shame.

The NWT Housing Corporation should not be in business. I am also not in favour of the market housing initiatives, as I believe that local housing authorities do not have the manpower to take on additional duties. They spend too much time right now trying to extend the life of social housing units. I believe we could save money by replacing these old units and then there might be time to take on additional work.

There are some simple truths in government, Mr. Speaker. Too much administration costs take away from program delivery. Decisions made in the interest of the people, from the safety of Yellowknife, often have unintended consequences for frontline workers.

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This needs to be taken into account whenever new programs or initiatives are introduced. Now I am aware that the NWT Housing Corporation will be redefining its mandate over the course of this upcoming fiscal year. I would like to see them remember what they should be doing: providing and maintaining public housing stocks and helping with affordable homeownership options for the NWT residents. I stress, Mr. Speaker, options for NWT residents, not Russians, not Alaskans.

Hear! Hear!

Well said.

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Let’s keep the new mandate simple so people can understand the programs and services that fall out of the mandate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Mr. Speaker…(English not provided)

Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak with you today about the need in Nahendeh for housing; housing for singles and single parents in particular. Mr. Speaker, in my constituency, 25 percent of our households have a core need for housing. This means that there is an issue with suitability, adequacy or affordability with about 200 of the 754 households surveyed by the Housing Corporation; or, in the most simple terms, the types of housing we have now is inappropriate, too expensive, and there is just not enough of it. Yet over the next three years, Fort Simpson will only get 10 new single housing units and then that is it for Nahendeh for the foreseeable future, Mr. Speaker.

I am concerned that low-priced, single units are the most in demand for the disadvantaged person. However, income support no longer covers the cost of single unit housing, Mr. Speaker.

The solution is so simple. For instance, if the government would only consider building a little four-plex in Jean Marie River, that would cure 90 percent of all their housing issues, Mr. Speaker.

I am also concerned about single parents; the picture is even worse for them. The Northwest Territories has the fastest-growing single-parent population in the country. In the 1998 National Child Poverty Profile, it stated that children living with single mothers are more likely to be poor and, in fact, live in deep poverty and will remain this way longer. More aboriginal children live with single mothers. But instead of increasing our efforts to appropriately house them, the government revises the Housing Corporation’s mandates away from social housing, Mr. Speaker. There are some simple solutions to our housing crisis in Nahendeh, but we need help for single people, especially those with children, and we need it right away. Mahsi cho.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my Member’s statement today is about the potential advantage of implementing a tax credit for interest paid on mortgages.

Hear! Hear!

Mr. Speaker, even with the relatively low interest rates of today, a Northwest Territories resident purchasing a $250,000 home still pays anywhere between $10,000 to $14,000 a year in interest for the first 10 years of their mortgage. Mr. Speaker, the cost of living, especially housing costs, is so high in the North that individuals employed in the diamond mining sector often prefer to purchase a home for their family in the South and commute. We spend a fortune attracting professionals north, only to have them return south after a couple of years.

This government needs to be looking at creative ways to make it more attractive for people to put down roots, Mr. Speaker. If the Northwest Territories were to implement the type of tax credit that I propose, we would have a leg up over other jurisdictions and it would go a long way toward making homeownership affordable for low to middle-income earners.

This idea is not a new one, Mr. Speaker. The United States offers a tax deduction for interest paid on mortgages. Here in Canada, the short-lived Clark government proposed a tax credit for interest paid on mortgages in 1979. Unfortunately, their mandate ended before it could be implemented.

The tax credit idea is quite simple, Mr. Speaker. The system that was proposed in 1979 allowed a 25 percent tax credit for the first $5,000 paid in mortgage interest, with a maximum benefit of $1,250. In today’s dollars, an equivalent maximum benefit would be 25 percent of $13,200, or a tax credit of $3,300. A tax credit has a number of advantages over the U.S. tax deduction. It directs more of the benefits towards lower and middle-income earners and homeowners. A cap also significantly reduces the potential cost of implementing the system.

Mr. Speaker, it’s about time that we show some leadership and look at innovative and creative ways of making housing more affordable. Last year we saw a host of new tax measures come into effect. We had to stomach it because of our pitiful fiscal situation. The fiscal situation today is much improved. This year I’d like to see this government look into implementing tax breaks to help make homeownership in the Northwest Territories affordable. Mr. Speaker, I’ll have questions for the Minister of Finance at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Hear! Hear!

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Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. In the Northwest Territories today, we have social housing programs that are becoming social housing problems of enormous complexity. Mr. Speaker, we not only have issues that my colleagues have very eloquently outlined today facing us in their communities, but we have a very long-range problem in that the multi-year contract we have with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which today feeds our coffers to the tune of some $33 million, is slowly, gradually disappearing, Mr. Speaker. According to the terms of the takeover we signed with CMHC, I believe it was eight years ago, it’s going to sunset. There will be nothing left of that after the year 2038, Mr. Speaker. This really spells disaster for many residents, especially those in smaller communities where there is such a heavy reliance on social housing.

Mr. Speaker, the 2004 housing needs survey by the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation tells us that of the 14,000 households in the NWT, about 2,100 of them are in need of repair; 1,400 of them are overcrowded; about another 1,500 say that affordability is their most significant problem. Mr. Speaker, given that the increases in population and changes in demographics are rapidly changing the face of the Northwest Territories and that we are losing our long-range multi-million dollar source of funding, how are we going to maintain public housing levels? Tens of millions of dollars are falling off our income sheet for the coming years, Mr. Speaker. We have yet to see a viable plan for ensuring that we will be able to continue to be able to afford a decent housing program for our people. Eight years ago we took on this responsibility, and I’m afraid we’re not doing a very good job of carrying it through. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to talk about the lack of a coordinated policy for housing for seniors and people with disabilities. Mr. Speaker, I don’t think it’s the responsibility of this government; I think it’s the honest duty of this government to make sure that we address the housing needs for our seniors and disabled constituents. Mr. Speaker, I still speak firmly that we do not have a coordinated access program for barrier-free access housing, Mr. Speaker. It should be a principle of this government to make sure our seniors and our disabled constituents are treated fairly and properly in homes; where we do not treat them as shut-ins, but take care of them with the dignity they so rightly deserve, Mr. Speaker.

Hear! Hear!

Mr. Speaker, we may not be breaking any official laws. I can guarantee you that some bureaucrat out there will take a tape measure and say, yes, we’re treating this perfectly to the letter of the law. But I’m not talking about building things to the minimum, Mr. Speaker. I’m talking about giving people their lives; I’m talking about giving them a life worth living, Mr. Speaker. So I’m going to say that this government needs a firm policy on how to help address the housing needs of those seniors and disabled people, Mr. Speaker.

This government needs to embrace independent living. We have people living longer and wanting to live productive lives. Again, let’s not treat them as shut-ins. Let’s give them a chance to live a full and productive life, Mr. Speaker, with dignity.

Mr. Speaker, a couple of months ago I brought a couple of units to the attention of the housing Minister. I have to, first and foremost, say that I do appreciate that he did send some people in there to see the Beirut-type conditions that those folks are living under.

---Laughter

Mr. Speaker, I hope he sent them in there wearing hard hats and safety vests because these were horrible conditions we had people looking into. I have to give compliments to the Minister for addressing that problem, first and foremost. But we can’t stop there. Our government needs a policy to make sure these folks are living.

Mr. Speaker, that example, in closing, I’m going to say this was the first step. Finally, it’s nice to see the Housing Corporation move their stone feet and get into this race and deal with this problem. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to take this opportunity to tell you how displeased I am at the way the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation and this government have handled the market housing initiative introduced last year. Mr. Speaker, as you might recall, we had a very extensive debate on various aspects of this policy all during the spring and summer sessions in 2004. At that time, the government begged us to waive their own BIP policy and allow them to bring 22 trailers from Sherwood Park in a hurry, because this was a cheap and efficient way to bring needed housing for teachers and nurses into our communities. Time was of the essence; there were no other options, Mr. Speaker. They assured us that they would have an evaluation done and that they would look into creating a housing manufacturing industry in the North and they would come back with a comprehensive plan and they would not ask to bypass the BIP again. So where do we stand a year later, Mr. Speaker?

We have 14 out of 22 mobile homes sitting empty, dotted all over the North. Mr. Speaker, the department has no clear idea what went wrong. They can’t figure out why the people who said they wanted them would not take them. They’re asking, Mr. Speaker, for us to give them the benefit of the doubt to bring 22 more units, no questions asked, and waive the BIP again.

Mr. Speaker, I need to know where the government is heading with their money in the Housing Corporation. The Minister indicated, no problem, we can bring 22 more and if they’re not taken up, we can give them to social housing, while Mr. McLeod indicated how labour-intensive and more costly trailers will be to maintain.

Mr. Speaker, I need to ask the government, is this where we’re heading with the social housing policy? Are we going to become the middleman for trailer dealers from the South, Mr. Speaker?

---Laughter

Is this where the government is heading?

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I say this is not acceptable, Mr. Speaker. Are they going to continue to ignore the BIP that is applicable to everybody else? Mr. Speaker, all the answers I have gotten to this date are not acceptable. I don’t believe it’s fair to say to the people in social housing that they can get leftover mobile homes. I don’t think it’s fair…

---Laughter

…for the government to say we can just waive BIP because it doesn’t work for us. I expect the Minister to answer to all of the above. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, before we launch into the pressing housing issues of the day, I’d just like to take a moment to pay tribute to a relationship of love and commitment that has stood the test of time. On February 24, 1945, Albert Bonnet met Febula Heron in Edmonton and married her and, shortly thereafter, he took her to Fort Smith where they reside to this day. They have brought into this world seven children and they are now, as well, proud grandparents 15 times and great-grandparents eight times over. Today, Mr. Speaker, they’re celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary.

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Truly a relationship that has stood the test of time and I’d like to thank you for honouring that accomplishment. I apologize for not being at their celebration on Saturday, but I wish them all the best in the world and, of course, may the next 60 years be as good as the first. Thank you.

---Laughter

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my honour to recognize three people in the gallery, famous artists: Mr. Antoine Mountain.

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Also Margaret Donovan, who runs a gallery here in Yellowknife, from Tsiigehtchic.

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Also Victor Stewart, who’s a recreation director in Fort McPherson. Welcome to the House.

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Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to recognize Ms. Barb Barnet, who’s joining us today. She’s the co-chair of the review committee at the Workers’ Compensation Board and also a constituent of mine. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you. It’s good to see in our Chambers again, Mr. Speaker, Lydia Bardak who was gone for a while and she’s back and she’s a renowned social activist. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. I spoke today about the need for single-housing units in the Nahendeh region. If the Minister could explain to me how he intends to address the needs in the smaller communities in my riding -- like Jean Marie, Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake -- in terms of their single housing needs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 470-15(3): Housing Needs In Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have completed two phases of a needs survey. Based on those needs surveys which identify where the majority of the core need is, we are now focusing our dollars and resources to where that highest need is. That’s how we basically make our decisions on how we allocate; based on the needs surveys that have been completed.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Supplementary To Question 470-15(3): Housing Needs In Nahendeh