Debates of May 9, 2007 (day 3)

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. (Translation) Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment. Schools across the North are preparing for their year-end school next month. The school in Gameti was approved by this government to build an extension so the community has access to the local gym. (Translation ends)

…prepared for their year-end school next month. The school in Gameti was approved by this government to build an extension so the community can have access to the local gymnasium, which they currently do not have. Construction for this project was scheduled to begin this summer, Mr. Speaker. The community of Gameti, however, is concerned as it is now spring break-up and the supplies for this project have not yet arrived over the winter road. My question is to the Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment. Mr. Speaker, what is the current status with the Gameti school extension? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The project went out to tender, and it wasn’t just to put in a gym, it was to provide a bit of an expansion to the school to allow for the community to have high school courses offered in the community. When the bids came in, they were so much over budget that we couldn’t proceed. There were some attempts to find ways to reduce the cost of the budget and they weren’t successful. So at this point, MACA, ECE and the Department of Public Works are examining what the options might be. We remain committed to the project and we’re looking for what we can do to ensure that it will proceed. Obviously, as the Member has pointed out, with us missing the winter road this year, the extension, which had been projected for the fall of 2008, will be delayed probably for one year.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 38-15(6): Gameti School Extension

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to ask Minister Dent about the next question; that is what other alternative measures were taken by your department to move things forward, especially during the critical time where supplies could have been delivered over the winter road? What were the other alternative measures? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 38-15(6): Gameti School Extension

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that Public Works attempted to discuss the issue of the cost with the contractor in the community; they were not able to come to any resolution. So Public Works has come back to MACA and ECE and given us a number of options that we can consider. We are working together with the other two departments to develop a strategy so that we can move the project forward, hopefully, within the next year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 38-15(6): Gameti School Extension

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that there was much done to move things forward with the project. It is my understanding that the bid on the project was high for approval but, at the same time, why hasn’t the department come back to the government to seek additional funds to cover additional costs to complete the project, the most important project in the community of Gameti? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 38-15(6): Gameti School Extension

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. By the time the tenders came in, were evaluated, by the time Public Works embarked on the process of negotiation -- they thought there might be some room for movement there -- we had lost the opportunity to make the award of a contract then to meet this year’s shipping. So we will work to ensure that we can make the decision on the project soon enough this year that we’ll be able to make the winter road this winter.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 38-15(6): Gameti School Extension

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the community of Gameti is frustrated over the whole process; it’s been on hold for a number of months and it wasn’t moving anywhere once the bid came in, was too high. That’s why I was asking about alternative measures. But, Mr. Speaker, my final question: This project was scheduled to be completed before the next school year; that was the hope. The bureaucratic red tape is no excuse for any delay; we’ve heard it over and over. When will the building for the Gameti school extension begin? Will it be next year? Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

When?

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 38-15(6): Gameti School Extension

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I said, we’re still in the process of examining whether or not the scope of the project will need to change. We haven’t decided whether or not we’re in a position to just agree to pay the price and go forward with the project. If all of our school projects keep coming in at more than twice what the budget is, Mr. Speaker, we’re not going to be able to proceed with all of the projects. We agree with the Member that the school expansion in Gameti is a priority and we’re going to work with Public Works and MACA to do our best to bring the project forward next winter. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Just to follow up on my Member’s statement about the rent scale policy that this government never seems to want to revisit. Mr. Speaker, just seven months ago I was asking the then-Minister of Housing, the Honourable Dave Krutko, about this same issue and just looking at the Hansard I see words like "review," "revisit," in conjunction with the transfer to ECE having something ready in the next number of weeks to review. You know, all this on the review of the rent scale policy, Mr. Speaker, and it’s seven months now in the works. As a committee member, I have seen nothing that this government has even looked at revisiting this rent scale issue, which, you know, the Deputy Premier said it was brought up in his constituency meeting. You know, from Inuvik to Fort Smith, people are concerned and I think this government really has to take it to task that we have to revisit this old policy. Is that going to happen some time soon, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister responsible for Housing, Mr. Handley.

Return To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m sure there are many people who would like to have their rent lowered. Mr. Speaker, the current arrangement we have is that housing units are based on market value. So a rent is set depending on the condition, the age, the size and so on, of the house. That’s how we determine what that house is worth to rent. It’s the same way one would have if you were to rent a house in Yellowknife or Edmonton or wherever it may be. Individuals are asked to pay up to 30 percent of their gross income as rent. If you went to a bank, they would ask you for 32 percent. So we’re in the same range as a bank would expect. Mr. Speaker, so from the Housing Corporation point of view, we feel we’re being fair. Now if an individual or family feel that they don’t have adequate income to be able to cover that, then they are all welcome to go to income support and make a case for some assistance there. That’s how people would get support for the rent. Mr. Speaker, if it’s a case of people feeling the house is not worth what we’re asking for in rent because of the condition of it, then that certainly is something that we will take a look at. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, the rent scale ranges from $32 a month to about $2,000 a month, Mr. Speaker, on the rent scale that this government holds. I don’t think you can get any rent from people asking to lower my $32 a month rent. You know, actually, some people are willing, probably, to pay more rent if they could probably get a fair assessment of their rent based on perhaps their net income, not gross income. If somebody’s netting $1,500 and taking home $900 but their rent is still coming in at $1,800 a month, Mr. Speaker, that’s…In Detah or in Colville Lake, you know, $1,800 a month is based on Yellowknife rent and vacancy rates here in Yellowknife, not in the communities, Mr. Speaker. So we have to get that straight. Also, the Housing Corporation thinks it’s fair; the Housing Corporation doesn’t collect the rent, Mr. Speaker, it’s the LHOs, the people that live in the community have to go out and collect that rent. So the Housing Corporation really has nothing to do with the collection of rent and, therefore, it’s not their issue of how much the rent is going to be. So I want to ask the Minister, is the department going to revisit the rent scale because it’s old; it’s 15 years old, Mr. Speaker. We’ve got to do something different, make a change that people…

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. I’ll allow the Minister to answer that question.

Further Return To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The rent scales and our formula for determining rent are always being revisited. I might say it doesn’t really matter whether we do it based on gross salary or on net salary, we take into consideration the other costs that individuals may have anyway. So the dollar amount would work out the same; we would just…If we used net, we would take out a higher percentage of their net income. The way we do it is they pay 30 percent, or we calculate 30 percent and then we take from that, in fact, costs of operating the house and other deductions, so the net effect is much less. In fact, people in the Northwest Territories enjoy, on average, a 16 percent rate of their income on rent. It’s quite low compared to national averages, but I’m sure there are individuals who have other cases that they feel are unfair.

Mr. Speaker, in answer to the question, yes, it will be reviewed, but keep in mind that any kind of subsidy is to come through the Income Support Program, not through Housing. So we will work with Minister Dent, and Minister Dent’s department is doing a review of income support and I’m sure that this issue will be considered through that review as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess my point is more directed toward people who can actually pay some sort of rent. The Income Support Program tops up to $32 or whatever your rent is to what the market rent was set at and that’s just basically money going from Education into Housing, you know. It’s just from one government department to the other. There is really no money going into another person’s hands except from one department to the other, so I don’t really understand how the income support is going to be affected directly or indirectly. My question is how can we accommodate people that are out there with a good job but are being hammered on their rent for a dilapidated unit and they just don’t deem it as fair but they’re willing to pay anyway, Mr. Speaker? You know, they don’t want to just…

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. I’ll allow the Minister to answer that question.

Further Return To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have to keep in mind that the majority of people, even those who draw income support, have some income; the majority are earning some money. Again, there are some who aren’t. Anyone who is earning income but hasn’t got the money to be able to rent the unit that’s available in their community can go to income support to have it topped up. It isn’t just for $32 rent; in some cases it’s $1,000, $1,500 rent that they need some help to be able to pay the rent. So they can do that. Mr. Speaker, as I said, through income support we are reviewing the rates; through the Housing Corporation we’re looking at our units and we’ll do everything we can, and we are working hard at getting the units in better condition so people feel more satisfied that they’re getting their money’s worth. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess my point of advice, when we’re reviewing this rent scale, everything that this government reviews is based on Yellowknife. Our power is based on Yellowknife; all our subsidies are based on Yellowknife; our rent is based on Yellowknife; vacancy; everything Yellowknife. When we’re reviewing this, can we go out to these communities and really do some real analysis of what people are actually willing to pay and what it costs to build a unit there and how much people can rent it out at a fair market rent based on that community only, Mr. Speaker? Not on Yellowknife as is the norm. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 39-15(6): Public Housing Rent Scale

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We use Yellowknife as a rate because it’s probably the most reasonable rate. We could base it on Colville Lake or somewhere else but I don’t think people would like that, Mr. Speaker. So we have to use a base and we compare it to something. We also have to compare the quality and the condition of our units, as well, and that’s fair that we need to do that. Mr. Speaker, it doesn’t matter how we do it, we want to make sure that people have the money to be able to rent decent accommodation and at the same time meet all their other obligations. Mr. Speaker, I’ll take it to the Housing Corporation, we’ll look at it again. We have the income support reform exercise going on. This is an issue that I’ve heard in other places, too, and we take it seriously. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.