Debates of June 6, 2006 (day 6)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the $222,000 be deleted from the Department of Transportation airports activity in Supplementary Appropriation, No. 1, 2006-2007. Mahsi, Mr. Chairman.

The motion is in order.

Question.

To the motion. Mr. Braden.

Mr. Chairman, thank you. I will not be supporting the motion until I receive the information. I was very much prepared to see this money deleted from the bill. I guess related to the experience that we have already suffered as a consequence of CATSA’s approach to this kind of thing and the department’s ability to pass these costs on to consumers through more fees, Mr. Chairman, I am more prepared to say that the general revenue of the Government of the Northwest Territories should take this hit rather than it being passed on yet again to consumers. That is my reason for not supporting the deletion.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. I am sorry; the motion is defeated.

---Defeated

Sorry. Page 20, Transportation, operations expenditures, airports, $222,000.

Agreed.

Transportation, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $758,000.

Agreed.

Page 21, Industry, Tourism and Investment, operations expenditures, corporate management, not previously authorized, $65,000.

Agreed.

Energy, mines and petroleum resources, not previously authorized, $350,000.

Agreed.

Economic development, not previously authorized, $183,000.

Agreed.

Industry, Tourism and Investment, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $598,000.

Agreed.

Page 22, Environment and Natural Resources, operations expenditures, corporate management, not previously authorized, $114,000.

Agreed.

Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess this is nothing new for the Minister to hear this; the Minister of ENR, that is. It goes back to some comments I made in the House earlier this week with caribou and how it is that we seem to be just having a haphazard approach to looking at and counting herds or caribou from east to west. If you look at the numbers, we are going to spend $550,000 on a Caribou Management Strategy, but we really haven’t had a meeting with all the stakeholders involved, a sit down, a heart to heart with everybody. It hasn’t happened. Here we are; we're going to go out and spend $30,000 on Cape Bathurst, $40,000 on Bluenose, $30,000 on Bluenose East and who knows which animals are where on any given day? Like I mentioned, and many Members in this House have mentioned, these herds cross boundaries, they don’t know boundaries. They intermingle, the come together. I mean you can count them on one day and you’ll have a completely different count three weeks from then. It’s absurd why we would continue with that type of mentality, I would say, and I would think what really should happen is we should count them as all-encompassing, everything, and then you get a clear picture what’s really happening. To me I think it’s a waste, really, and I can’t put it any more bluntly than that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This area of caribou management, the information provided by the department in this area is the monitor of…(inaudible)…distribution movements through the use of satellite collars. There’s 20 of them being identified, public information and education programs, an inventory compliance activity in consultation with community stakeholders for a total of $525,000. It’s an area that has come up as a result of the monitoring that has been going on and the decline in the count that has happened and the environment that we work under with our co-management bodies. The discussions have been ongoing with the groups throughout the territory in this area. As the Member stated already, in this area of doing a caribou summit or something of that nature, that hasn’t been discussed, but it is requested by the Minister in the consultation with community stakeholders as part of this $525,000 is $140,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that. The last thing I’ll say is that I believe wholeheartedly that the sooner you get all of the stakeholders under one roof to discuss issues that are relative to everybody, then and only then can you come up with a management plan and until you do that you really, like I said, it’s like you really don’t know what the target is, you don’t know what the end game is, you don’t know what the results are going to be. You have to get everybody together. So I’d just leave it at that, Mr. Chairman, and I know the Minister was listening to my statement the other day and the questions I had for him and I would suggest this caribou summit take place the sooner the better. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next I have Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to the respect of the caribou mismanagement strategy here for $525,000, I know that this government here has been studying caribou right until they’re blue in the face here and we’ve had so many studies on caribou, you know, right until they’re blue in the nose. We have stacks of information on caribou numbers, migration routes and community consultation processes and all this, and now we’re spending another $140,000 on more consultation. I don’t know what really is going to come out of it, because I’m sure we’ve spent millions of dollars on consultation and other companies also spent a lot of money on counting caribou.

The West Kitikmeot South Slave Study has been studying caribou and other wildlife for the last 10 years also. You know, we have just tons of information out there and I think that the $200,000 even for 20 satellite collars, that’s $10,000 a satellite collar, Mr. Chair. Like what are they doing? What are they renting to go and track down these caribou, because to me that’s pretty expensive collaring anyway for caribou, the ones that especially are nearby, I don’t think it costs $10,000 to go and collar one in one day. That’s quite a waste of money I think.

Just with the consultation, $140,000 is not going to get you much consultation. I know that just from what I hear in talking to a lot of elders and a lot of hunters and trappers, that it’s just the government biologists are just dictating what the government should do with caribou management and these biologists aren’t even from the North and they have never even lived in the North and they’re just here driving their own agendas into the government’s management regime as far as when it comes to caribou. I don’t think that the government, whether they consult with the locals and the hunters and trappers and the stakeholders or anything, is going to make any significant changes that will help any of these stakeholders in caribou management. I couldn’t say for sure whether there’s a large decline in all of these herds, but I know that some of them have just taken different routes that they’re just not seeing as often anymore and that’s the word I get.

So I can’t speak anymore to the topic, but I just wanted to let the Minister of ENR know that I hope something really positive comes out of this whole management strategy at the end of the day that works for the outfitters, works for the hunters and trappers and works for all the stakeholders involved, because it sure is a real waste of money as far as I’m concerned. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comments from the Members. I don’t agree with them, but I appreciate the opportunity to exchange these views.

First in regards to a caribou summit, I publicly announced that a number of months ago that we’re going to do that, but it’s predicated on the necessity to have information. There’s no use to get all the people together, there’s no use to get all the leaders and all the user groups together if we don’t have information to talk about, that if we just sit around the table with each other and say well how many caribou have you heard, how many caribou have you heard that there are. I mean it would be sort of a pointless exercise unless we have all the best evidence we can get, which is what we are currently doing. We also have an obligation, a legal obligation to work with the land claim groups. It’s written into the land claim agreements and it makes very good sense with the wildlife board to have this shared responsibility, and we work very closely with them, and we consult with them and they give us their advice, and we most of the time agree and sign off the requests or recommendations they make to us in terms of their suggestions of how to deal with the wildlife, including caribou. We are the only agency, the only group that is doing any information gathering. Nobody else does that. We involve the wildlife boards, we use local people when we’re flying over their territory when we’re doing the counts, when they’re doing the surveys and we’re making every effort to be inclusive.

So we have a major issue here. There is significant decline in one of the major wildlife species in the Northwest Territories, as well as Yukon, Nunavut and across Northern Canada. We have to take all the necessary steps to get the evidence together and then start doing more coordinated planning and this is what this money is intended to do. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I won’t speak too much about this anymore until we find out what happened and what kind of a strategy rolls out of this. Maybe I just want to ask the Minister when is this strategy going to come to some fruition, I guess, and when is the summit going to happen? You know, another caribou summit, aboriginal summit, housing summit; you know, every time there’s a crisis situation, let’s have a summit. So anyway, what’s the deadline for this strategy anyway? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I’m starting to suffer from what they call cognitive dissidence; I hear one Member saying caribou summit right now, today, yesterday, last week and I have another Member three seats down saying summit this, oh it’s a waste of time. The reality is we have an interim plan that we rolled out in the winter where we had some measures that are going to carry us over the last winter and the coming winter. We’re doing all the scientific census taking and the surveys and the counts and the predation studies now. That information will be ready in late fall/early winter and once we get that information in, we’re going to be looking at before the end of winter having a gathering of the appropriate groups, the aboriginal governments, the stakeholders that look at what the information tells us both in the specific areas, as well as what do we do as a territory when we look at if all the herds are continuing to decline then we’re going to have to have some broad territorial-wide strategies. So this is a very, very important issue and that’s the process and this is going to be one of the biggest issues you’re going to be dealing with in the rest of the life of this Assembly, in my opinion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don’t want to downplay the importance of caribou in the territory or in Nunavut or in the Yukon, that’s for sure, but I think a better community-based comprehensive approach has to be taken. A traditional knowledge approach to how we manage caribou has got to be taken up by this government and maybe that’s why it’s in decline, is because we’re just listening to too many biologists and people that just have never hunted a day in their lives and they’re telling us how to manage our caribou and our wildlife. I think that’s the approach that we really have to incorporate a lot of traditional knowledge on what is the best approach to managing wildlife and it’s long overdue definitely. Maybe that’s why it’s in decline and I hope that when we do get all this information that comes out of this management strategy and the recommendations that come of out of these stakeholders, especially the hunters and trappers and the people that are actually out on the land that make these recommendations, this government actually uses those recommendations. Like a lot of the recommendations that come to this House and we have piles of reports of recommendations on improved programs and services and nothing gets done. So I really hope that something positive and we actually move forward on this whole initiative, because I sure in heck wouldn’t want to see a good management strategy that costs a half million dollars come through this House and it gets shelved because, oh, all of a sudden now they didn’t make an accurate count of one herd or another herd and, oh, the numbers weren’t really that good so let's just shelve all the recommendations of the strategy in five years from now. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That’s all.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I’d be very happy to arrange a full detailed briefing with GED if they are interested in getting updated on all the work that’s been done, the methodologies used, the kind of work that they’ve done, the areas that they’ve covered with their surveys. I’d also be more than happy to share with the Members the extensive recommendations we’ve received over the years from the wildlife boards in terms of wildlife management that we have dealt with, responded to and accepted and that we worked hand in glove with the wildlife boards on a daily basis, including the new Wekeezhii board, which has just been instituted in the Tlicho region, as well as the other stakeholder groups. So, Mr. Chairman, we should be very clear here that we take very seriously this need to collaborate and cooperate and we respond and work very, very closely with the wildlife boards. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The issue here is about our life as people in our region. When you talk about caribou, that’s our life. I wonder a lot of people who depend on caribou for their livelihood. This is exactly their life. You know, we have a decline or there’s some serious issues as some of the caribou are not as populated in the region as we think they are, then our elders get very concerned. I think that’s where I support what Mr. Landry is saying about we have a summit where real stakeholders are the elders who live off the caribou for the earliest time of their life. Us, we’re okay; we can go to the stores and that, and once in a while we go hunting.

By the way, Mr. Miltenberger, did I ever tell you about my hunting story? This is what the elders depend on and this is who should be at the summit, are the ones who know about the caribou, who depend on, who grew up on the caribou. I think they can work cooperatively with these new biologists coming out of universities who have all their high school and technology in terms of how to track the caribou. Well, that’s only one method. The other method has to be by the traditional knowledge and I think that’s where you’ve got to have a real good balance of the traditional knowledge and the technology as satellite, collaring the caribou. All the elders don’t like that, but you have to talk to them and you have to listen to them to have them explain to you why they don’t like the collaring of the caribou. Sometimes we don’t take those suggestions or advice too kindly because it just might as well collar them.

So anyhow, I really want to support you on this summit here, having some regional discussions with our stakeholders. I think the other key ingredients here on this one here is we educate our children.

I got excited last year when somewhere you mentioned that there was going to be some cabins along the winter roads for monitoring caribou. I’m not too sure if that come about, but that’s real key in terms of having the youth go out there with the wildlife officers and have educating programs with caribou. So I think that’s a real key in terms of the education programs and I support what you’re doing here, because, as you said, this is the first of many and we’re doing this and you have to certainly consult the land owners in the Northwest Territories. There’s a couple land owners that need to be consulted. So I look forward to the summit. I look forward to some of the older people, the hunters, I look forward to them being at this summit here. That’s their life you’re talking about.

So that’s really key here. So this is a really serious issue for my people and they depend on this caribou. So I’m just going to make that comment to the Minister and I think he’s taking all our comments into consideration for this important issue here. Without caribou, my people said there’s not going to be many of us left here. Caribou is their life. So we’re talking about the aboriginal people's life here and this is serious. So I really want to say that this is what the elders say when they sit and they talk about caribou. People in Colville Lake, we know this history of Colville Lake people and the caribou and there’s a mountain there that if you ever took the time to listen to Colville Lake people, ask them about that mountain and how their people come about. It’s from the caribou. Really listen to those old-timers. They’re serious here so we can’t mess around with this stuff here. My people are depending on this issue here. They’re experts in there. I don’t know why we’re not using those experts in the small communities, Paulatuk, Sachs, Whati, Colville Lake. There’s lots of experts sitting there…(inaudible)…so heavily, there’s experts sitting right now in the communities wondering what they’re going to do with their life and they don’t have the paper, but they have a paper in their head. As the elder said, my paper is up here. They ask him for a certificate on First Aid. It’s all up here, he says. Because I don’t have the paper, they don’t hire me. So I think that this is their life that you’re talking about. I ask the Minister to have some consideration when you talk to stakeholders, when you talk to people monitoring it, talk to the original people of the land that can also help the biologists. By far we can help the wildlife technicians coming in here and they certainly can help us.

So it’s got to be a balance, Mr. Minister, Mr. Roland, on this issue here. So I’m looking forward to a summit, as Mr. Landry said. I’m looking forward to a good summit and I certainly support hearing you’re pushing for a good summit, a strong summit for the people. So I just wanted to say that for my people, set my people free. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, first and foremost, the Minister must have a supplementary appropriation approved for his request here and, as stated, the consultation with communities and stakeholders is something that is mandated by the agreements we have in place now with those that have settled claims and co-management boards as well. Through that process, hopefully much of what the Member has discussed could be incorporated through those co-management bodies that have their renewable resource councils and so on on the ground in their communities and if the co-management bodies want to involve them in that process, there’s a door right there. So first and foremost the issue and the importance of the caribou is why the department has come forward for this request. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya, any more general comments? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, thank you. I appreciate what the Minister is saying. These are comments just on behalf of the region. So he’s got my full support in terms of this issue here. So 110 percent from me.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Page 22, Environment and Natural Resources, operations expenditures, corporate management, not previously authorized, $114,000.

Agreed.

Environmental protection, not previously authorized, $560,000.

Agreed.