Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to follow up with the Minister of Housing on the line of questioning that Mr. Krutko had with regard to an appeal system. That is something that I have been working with the Minister and previous Ministers in establishing an appeal system for the clients out there. The people that are telling them no aren’t the people we should be appealing to, Mr. Speaker. That is why we are looking towards setting up an independent appeal system. In fact, it was approved last fiscal year. They had the appeal system. Where exactly is this appeal system, Mr. Speaker?
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Robert McLeod.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In my answers to the Member for Mackenzie Delta before, I did say that there was no official appeal process right now, which is true. We are in the process of developing an appeals process for both those that have been turned down for the Housing Choices Program and those that are in public housing. We are developing an appeals process and we are just in the process of finalizing that. We will probably share that with the Members, and it will go out there and we will have a communication plan to make sure that all the clients, tenants and the regions have an opportunity to know that this is coming into play and they have an appeal process. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, that is what the constituents are looking for. They are looking for a fair independent review process for their issues of arrears, long-term arrears, et cetera, and refusals of the Housing Corporation for accessing programs. I would like to ask the Minister again. I thought the setup of this independent appeal system was imminent, and last spring and during the summer I am hearing again that it is imminent. Mr. Speaker, the importance of the appeal system is to have it established as soon as possible. Will the Minister do that? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I understand how important it is for those out there to realize they do have an independent appeal process and then that is the beauty of this. It would be an independent appeal process. I can follow up, but we are hoping to have this roll out right away. We are obviously through this particular application stage for Housing Choices Program and then we will be hearing some of the concerns that residents have had. We will have this in place. We are looking to have this in place by the next application cycle. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know that when clients get a refusal letter from income support, at the bottom it says contact this person for an appeal if you are not comfortable with the decision. Our Housing Corporation letters say nothing of the sort. It doesn’t even say if you have a mechanism of appeal. That is what the people want. I believe this appeal system should be in place as soon as possible. Once again, is the Minister saying we are looking at April 1st? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I will follow up with the corporation. I know from the notes that I have, that the actual layout of the process is pretty well complete and it is just a matter of timeline. I will follow up with the corporation. I will communicate that to the Member. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are to the Minister responsible for dust control. I’m not too sure where he’ll take it, but I think that this issue has been around this House for some time. A number of years ago, we had a pilot project that they put forward to look at main street chipseal. We had different programs in regards to dust control. This issue is real in our small communities. It is a health issue. I think that we do have to find a way to facilitate those communities that are dealing with dust control. I would like to ask the Minister, who is responsible for this department, what is the government doing to work with communities?
I know we have infrastructure funding. We have money that is allocated to communities. Again, there was a core program that was developed in regards to main street chipseal. I would like to know, is the government finding ways to implement that program so that we can be able to accomplish that in communities that are looking at dust control?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The Minister responsible for Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Robert McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The chipseal program that was out a few years ago was part of the capital process when the transfer or the implementation of the New Deal, the money that went to the communities and then they determined their priorities and if dust control was one of the priorities, they identified and put the money towards it. We have seen lately in some of the plans that we are getting back from communities, a lot of them are starting to identify dust control as a priority and they are starting to put the funds towards it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The problem that I see with that suggestion is community gas tax dollars don’t cover a $600,000 or $700,000 capital project. We have to work with those communities to share costs, work with the Department of Transportation, the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, to find a workable project, a pilot project or whatever, to assist those communities to deliver dust control in their communities. That’s the issue. What are we doing as a government, and Association of Communities, and the communities, to find the solution to dust controls in communities? Thank you.
The communities are continuing to do what they can to do control dust in their communities. The problem is we’ve transferred all the capital dollars to the communities, so they have the ability to make their own decisions. As a department, we have no infrastructure dollars left.
It’s a fairly new process. Communities are starting to buy into it. A lot of communities are identifying dust control as a priority and they are starting to put some of their funds towards it. We continue to work with the communities, with their infrastructure plans and identifying some of their priorities and even helping them to identify their funding sources and going through that process with them. A lot of them are doing very well at it and continue to do so. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Again, I believe we are talking about a different level of communities. I know that the majority of the main paving projects that are taking place in the infrastructure funding and the capital dollars are in large, municipal centres. I’m talking about small communities such as Tsiigehtchic or Aklavik or Wrigley. Communities like that have a problem. I know I’ve heard my colleague from Nahendeh say this is an issue in his riding. It’s an issue in Fort McPherson. We’re trying to deal with it. Is there a way that they can develop a program similar to the main street chipseal program to work in conjunction with small communities that don’t have the infrastructure capacity, don’t have the equipment, to take on this type of a project? Again, I’d like to ask, will this government consider looking at that alternative to deal with dust control in our communities?
A lot of the larger communities that do have paving have identified or used some of their Building Canada money and some other funding, infrastructure stimulus funding, some have used that and they have identified paving as one of their priorities and put their money towards that. Some of the smaller communities had different priorities when this money rolled out, but are starting to see now that they are starting to identify chipseal as one of their priorities, dust control as one of their priorities and they are taking steps to address that. However, we will continue to work with the communities in identifying solutions and identifying how they can go about that. At the end of the day, the actual funding and the request will come from communities. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the reason I raise this question is the community of Wrigley had $250,000 down for dust control for their community. They were refused because they weren’t able to match the $250,000. They don’t have the capacity to match $250,000. So how are we expecting the other communities to make this a priority if they can’t afford to implement it? Again, Mr. Speaker, I’d like to ask the Minister, can they look at this issue regardless of whether it’s a special project or pilot project or fly on the wall to find a way to solve this issue. Can the Minister commit to look at this issue with his colleagues and Members from small communities to try to find a workable solution to this problem?
We’ll always continue to work with NWTAC, which represents all communities across the Territories, and LGANT, the local government administrators. We’ll continue with them. The way the process is laid out now -- and I’ve responded in some of my answers to some of the other Members’ questions that we try to spread everything around -- we want to give communities the opportunity to make these decisions themselves. If there is money available and it’s cost-shared, then they would be responsible for matching those dollars. If we start doing one-offs again, then we’ll get into a situation where everybody can say you did it for that community, you have to do it for us, and then we’re back to having a corporate capital plan that takes a lot of the authority-making decisions out of the communities. But we will continue to work with communities.
I have to say again, I have seen a great improvement and a great willingness on the communities that have taken on this new money and all the authority that’s coming with it. They are really starting to come up with some excellent projects and something as a community they don’t have to wait forever for. It’s like my answer right now is kind of taking forever, so I’ll leave it at that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to pick up from where Member Groenewegen had taken issue today with some of the Power Corporation’s rate review. One of the issues of interest of mine is, is the NWT Power Corporation going to be considered -- in its restructuring of rates, that is -- potentially a new department for the Northwest Territories government. I have spoken on that issue a couple of times and said I think, in the long run, that will give us better accountability, perhaps it will even create efficiencies. My question is directly to the Premier, who is the Minister responsible for the Power Corporation. Is the NWT Power Corporation in a situation where we’re contemplating rolling it into the territorial government as a full department rather than an independent business corporation as it’s being run today?
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Power Corporation itself is established under our legislation, the Government of the Northwest Territories. So through any initiative, any change of that nature would have to be the work of this level of government. The NTPC board, NTPC structure is all put into place. They have not had discussions in this area. They will be getting the work of the review that was done specifically on the Power Corp and be working through that scenario. They go on with the business established under our legislation. Thank you.
I appreciate the answer from the Premier, but the point is you don’t ask the board if they want to dissolve themselves. That would be a political decision by the review team looking at rate review, and one of the analyses out of this process could be when they do rate review, we could probably provide more efficiencies and accountability in the rate review process if one of the recommendations was to roll it into a territorial department per se. Is that one of the issues being contemplated at the political level by someone in charge of the legislation such as the Premier and the Cabinet? Thank you.
We set up a process to undergo a look at rate regulations, distribution of power in the Northwest Territories. We underwent a review process on the Power Corporation itself and we are nowhere close to looking at making that decision. That was brought up earlier, about is there any part of the review that would look at structure and so on. The rate of return is part of the system. The report also suggested the cost to service should be looked at through a number of the zones. So there are initiatives in that report that would allow us to look at overall function of the Power Corporation.
But let’s be careful here. There’s a lot of our folks delivering energy today, keeping the lights on today in the Northwest Territories and providing a service. Let’s not just put questions out there that suddenly the rumour is we are going to go and do something. There are no recommendations at that level that talk about that, but that’s an initiative that could always be taken by the Legislative Assembly. In fact, it’s not the board that would make that decision; it’s this Legislative Assembly that have the acts that establish the Power Corp, the PUB and so on and so forth. So it is this floor, this table that would make any recommendations in that area. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I’m reminded of the old adage that the definition of insanity is you keep doing something over and over and expect different results. Mr. Speaker, the issue here really is one of consideration. I didn’t say was that the final outcome of the report, is that the driving force of the report. I’d just like to know if it’s a real consideration, Mr. Speaker. So, in essence, the how would we achieve efficiencies if these types of measures weren’t considered. If it was rolled into the territorial government, we all know that it wouldn’t require a general rate application process or a PUB process; it would require accountability directly to this House, unlike it has now.
So, Mr. Speaker, I’m asking, is it a fundamental consideration. Because otherwise all we’re doing is pushing costs around as opposed to achieving efficiencies. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, the simple fact is the issue of power generation across the Northwest Territories has been a major issue for as long as I can remember as a Member of the Legislative Assembly, and I started back in the 13th Assembly. There have been a number of initiatives that were undertaken, presented to governments of the past, to take an initiative to try to change some of the way we did our work and delivery of energy across the North, but there was not the will to make that change. This Assembly is now going to be presented with an opportunity. Do we have the will to make the necessary change? Some of that will be a shifting of the numbers, yes, but it is structural in the sense of how we deliver power and how we share the cost. Is it truly a territorial entity across the North? I believe it is and we should treat it as such. Those other discussions about can we see other efficiencies, well, I’m prepared to go to committee with the review that’s been done and discuss what options are there that we may look at as an Assembly. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we can’t change the rates unless we do something different. Okay. Now, whether that means we change the rates to increase or change the rates to decrease, the reality is we have to do something different to change the rates. So, Mr. Speaker, if this analysis of this power rate review does not fully contemplate the option of moving the Power Corp into its position in line with the rest of the departments of the territorial government -- in other words, make it a full territorial department -- would the Minister commit that this is a consideration and costing that we could take on as an Assembly to figure out is this the right direction for the Corporation? Because I believe it is. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, we’d have to undertake a very in-depth process to look at are there potential efficiencies there. I believe the report that we can have discussion on with Members will highlight the comparisons of the Power Corporation with other jurisdictions of similar size and design in the sense of diesel and hydro, some of the mix for going forward. Again, nothing stops this Assembly from taking on initiatives, whether they’re addressed in those reports or not. But simply, the fact is, let’s look at some of those things.
The Member just stated that there are some fixed things and unless we change the way we do business, those things remain. Well, the things that will remain, whether it is within a government department or the corporation as it stands, is the rate base we have and that is the customer base, the cost of delivery of service, that is our fuel, that is our hydro and natural gas and other areas. So those are the things that we have, as well as our employee structure that’s out there that is under a union. The Government of the Northwest Territories is under a union. So all of those things would have to be taken into consideration, but, ultimately, that is a decision that can be made by this Assembly. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Premier is responsible for the Northwest Territories Power Corporation. The Northwest Territories Power Corporation, Mr. Premier has just said, could be brought under the umbrella as a department of the Government of the Northwest Territories thus removing the need to have it as a regulated utility through the PUB, the whole cost of service way of trying to figure out rates that generate profits for this government. Is it possible that such a transition could take place without absolutely no downside to the establishment as it stands now, as a separate entity, with a board of directors, with its own union? Is there any accountable downside of something like that for the people who are at the front lines? Thank you.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.
Mr. Speaker, without looking at it in depth as to, for example, the union agreement that’s in place with the Power Corporation and how that would work with ours, that’s an issue that would have to be looked at. Do the structures at headquarters match the structures of a department? That would have to be looked at. But we’ve not done that type of work. The review of the energy rates regulations piece did not specifically address the corporate structure in that sense. It talked about a number of structures within the Power Corporation, the delivery. The issue of the PUB, again, that’s under its own legislation. We would have to look at the interaction, if there should be a PUB or not and what role that would be or would the Government of the Northwest Territories play that role as well. There would be substantive change then being looked at and we would have to make sure that if we were going to go down that path, we are prepared to follow it through and make sure we did it right.
Right now, and just for the record and for our employees out there, that hasn’t been discussed at any table at this point, but ultimately, as I said, that is the authority of this Legislative Assembly, to look at those and direct that work being undertaken in that area. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, when you look at Crown corporations that are owned by government, there is always some good reasons why that activity is carried on at arm’s length from the government. In the example of the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, it had to do with that corporation’s ability to receive money from federal programming and so on. There were good reasons that you could articulate why it needed to be arm’s length from the government. Is there any such reasons why NTPC needs to be a Crown corporation at arm’s length from the control and supervision of this government? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I go back to the earlier Member’s statement that Mrs. Groenewegen had made earlier about when the Power Corp first came in, it used to be the Northern Canada Power Corporation. Then we took it over, our specific area within the Northwest Territories. At that time, the legislation was adopted and put in place and, in a sense, kept it at its level of a corporate structure. Since then there’s been little change, in fact, over the 22 years around that corporate structure. That is probably one of the things that would have to be looked at if we were to do any work in that area. Thank you.
I’m very familiar with that time. I was on the original board of directors of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation before NCPC had even moved from Edmonton to Hay River. So I’m very familiar with the thinking at the time, and it was considered a great gain for the GNWT to acquire this asset. But, you know, times have kind of changed a bit now. Now we are looking at costs that are really quite a burden to the people, and we are quite consumed, as legislators, about the cost of living. I think it is time to re-examine the model that we have in place. Because if there is anything about that model that adds more costs, which then need to be passed on to the consumers, I think we owe it to the consumers to at least consider that. Would the Premier agree to that undertaking and that exercise? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, the whole process, as the Member pointed out earlier, between ourselves as a stakeholder or as the shareholder, the Power Corporation itself, our hydro entity, there are a number of partnerships out there now around our hydro with First Nations, as well, and aboriginal governments. There are a number of factors that would have to be considered. Again, that is the PUB side of things that is on another piece of legislation. When we talk about general rate applications that go out around delivering power across the Northwest Territories, there is promise made that that is fairly intensive, and across the exercise we go through if there are any changes to be made, we would have to look at a number of things in this area. As we go through the steps of reviewing the energy report that came back and our response that we are preparing to make, that Members would be included in that process. As we go through the Power Corporation review specific with Members, that is another avenue and opportunity we can look at that. If this Assembly and the Members here are willing to take a look at and put some resources towards that, that is something that I would sit down with Members to hear just how much energy we should put towards that and what level of work and detail is required. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have often felt kind of conflicted on this whole issue of NTPC, because I am very interested about, and concerned about, the well-being and the valuable contribution of the folks at head office, being as most of them are either my constituents or Mr. Speaker’s constituents. At the same time, I am listening to the people who represent communities where people are literally burdened under the weight of the cost of this service. We have heard from the NTPC Review Panel. There isn’t a whole lot we can do to change the way things are operated at headquarters that would translate into any significant savings for those people. That is why I am sort of stepping back from that and looking more at the big picture and the structure. I believe it would be an exercise at least worth looking at changing the mandate, having the Power Corporation controlled, I suppose, like any department by a deputy minister. I would assume and hope that... I can’t imagine that the GNWT UNW wages would be any lower than those that are earned at the Power Corporation. I don’t think it would be a significant difference. I don’t see there being any downside of at least looking at this. I am saying all of this because I don’t want there to be fear again into the folks who work at the Power Corporation, but I know they too are interested in getting as affordable power to the communities as possible.
I would like to ask the Premier what process would he suggest for undertaking looking at this particular very specific option. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I think there are a couple of avenues. One, first of all, I would agree with the Member about our staff complement out there delivering the power that residents use today and in the future. They are very dedicated and keep on trying to provide the best service in a challenging environment. In fact, I think the record shows on outages and so on that we actually rank very well compared to some of the jurisdictions.
The issue of where this might be able to go, again I think there are a couple of avenues, as we talked with Members around our response to the energy rate regulation piece, around some of the cost structures and the delivery side as well as the NTPC review itself as we sit down and look at our response as we go forward on that would provide a couple of avenues. Then we can go forward on that basis. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Keeping on the same theme, I guess, it is so important that we leave no stone unturned when it comes to looking at power rates in the Northwest Territories and the future of those rates. I wanted to maybe shift gears a little bit and ask the Premier some questions as it relates to discussions with ATCO. I am of the understanding that while the Premier and the Finance Minister were in Copenhagen, some discussions took place with Nancy Southern of ATCO. They were lengthy discussions. I am sure they weren’t just talking about the weather, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask the Premier what was the nature of the discussions that he and Mr. Miltenberger had with Nancy Southern. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The discussions with the representative of ATCO were ones around what we might be able to do when it comes to projects, specific initiatives in trying to move further along our interest as a government in expanding and delivering on increased hydro across the Northwest Territories. Minister Miltenberger did give an opportunity as to that discussion that happened at that time. We also did discuss the event of Copenhagen and climate change as well. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier if the Government of the Northwest Territories, the NWT Power Corporation or anybody associated with Cabinet is currently working on any partnerships with ATCO NUL or ATCO Electric. Thank you.
