Courts, not previously authorized, Mr. Hawkins.
The next subject is the $493,000 for court travel. Although it may be difficult to phrase a question, there is some concern that the court circuit is done in the most expensive way, a most expensive process. I would like the FMB Minister to ensure that we just don’t charter for charter’s sake when it comes to planes. Maybe we’d consider things like sched flights.
Again, I don’t think there have been any court cases that have been kicked out of the system, that I’m aware of in recent history, because they decided to have a trial on a day the plane actually flew into a community as opposed to waiting for the charter to come in and out because Lady Justice didn’t have her chance to do her proper due by the chance of missing one day in the system. I don’t think justice is being denied in any process. And I would just like the Minister to put an eye to the costs of travel, especially as I reaffirmed earlier about these very difficult and expensive times we’re living in.
This is, as I’m informed, an increase in the court circuits that are being held throughout the year that were planned for this fiscal year. I believe the Minister of Justice would be able to give more detail to the Members. If we can, Mr. Chairman, give the Minister of Justice, Mr. Lafferty, an opportunity to provide a little more detail.
As you know, we are unique in the North compared to other jurisdictions. We are one of the jurisdictions that provide court circuits to the most isolated communities, as opposed to southern jurisdictions. It does cost us money to travel to these communities.
We do work with the judicial system where the court circuit, most of the time, uses scheduled services. As you know, some small, isolated communities do not have scheduled services. At times they have to fly in with chartered planes. The judiciary court schedule is based on the needs of the communities. That’s where the cost would come in, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chairman, would the Minister of Justice be willing to provide the details of that charter scheduling stuff he talked about? It doesn’t sound like it would be that difficult, seeing how he said they typically take sched flights.
I’d like to know the details on how often they charter, how that works with timing, such as what days they flew in and flew out. I want to see that in comparison to the normal scheduled flights and how many tickets would have been considered at that time.
I will say that yes, probably in some cases, if you’re sending a plane full of people in and out, it probably makes sense. If we’re sending a full plane in and only fill three seats and make the plane sit there for four or six or eight hours so we can fly them back out as opposed to making people sit there, maybe they could spend a night in the community — a little economic development, such as eating in a restaurant there assuming they have one, or renting from the local bed-and-breakfast. Those are the things to be talking about. That’s the detail I want to see. Line the two up against each other.
Mr. Chair, we can certainly provide more detailed information on the court circuits in the communities. There are communities that at times the judges would have to spend a night. But most times they don’t have accommodation or restaurants, as the Member indicated. We are working to the best of our ability with what we have, chartering to a community or on a regularly scheduled flight. Yes, certainly we can provide that information.
First, I’ll say thank you to the Justice Minister who will supply me with that detailed information. May I encourage him not to just stop at the detail I’ve offered. If he thinks something’s relevant to highlight, please do.
The other point I want to make is that if these communities are good enough for MLAs to stay in, I certainly hope that judges are not too good to be there too.
I too have questions in regard to the expenditure of $493,000. I’d like to know the total cost of that transportation of the court circuit in the fiscal year.
Mr. Chairman, we’ll get that information to the Member as well.
We do have to realize the importance the courts play in our communities. We also have to ensure that we do control the costs of travelling in the North but also realizing the communities should be able to host a lot of these parties. I know that in the community of Fort McPherson, for instance, we do have a hotel there. I think wherever possible, if they can stay an extra couple of days or a day in a community where there are hotels, meals can be arranged if they make every effort to do so.
Talking to people, especially at the airport, and talking to court workers, they do hold a lot of aircraft, which is very expensive. They fly in, do their court business, fly back to Inuvik, spend a night in Inuvik and fly back to their community the next day. I think that has to stop. If anything, they should make every effort to stay in those communities overnight until they conclude all their business and then move on.
I’d like to ask the Minister if he can get those details of the communities they’ve stayed in, how long they stayed in those communities, and exactly how many days they’ve spent overnight in communities in regard to this travel cost.
Mr. Chairman, in fact, we can provide that number. I can give a quick update here, but we can provide an attachment to give the days spent in communities. The original amount budgeted for the ’07-‘08 fiscal year was $1,058,000. The court’s scheduled sitting days, as they are defined in 2006-2007, were 273, and in 2007 the sitting days scheduled — you need the total amount here — were 400. I’ll give you the actual amount. That was Yellowknife at 273. But the total communities, a grand total: 319 for ’06, 469 for ’07. And we’ll provide the attachment on the actual days that courts regularly sat so far.
I’d like to ask the Premier if he can provide the information that he’s read out to the committee so we also have a chance to review it. And also in consideration of the budget process we’re going through in the next couple of months, we would have the opportunity to read it before that process takes place.
Mr. Chairman, we’ll be able to provide the information on these scheduled sitting days in total for all communities, along with what Minister Lafferty is committed to providing as well.
Justice, Operations Expenditures, Courts, not previously authorized: $1,729,000.
Justice, Operations Expenditures, Courts, $1,729,000 approved.
Justice continued, Operations Expenditures, Community Justice and Corrections, not previously authorized: $214,000.
I’d just like to ask the Minister: are there any other funds, either by way of new funding that will be available to communities for Community Justice Programs, by way of programs established, Justice Strategy funds? We do have Justice committees and other committees, and a lot of them are struggling with the existing funding arrangements we have. I think it would be good if we can see if there are any other federal program dollars available for Justice.
Mr. Chairman, the information that I can provide is the $145,000 as required for this is coming out of expenditures supported by the federal contribution funding agreement under the Aboriginal Justice Strategy Fund for this fiscal year of ’07-08. There are negotiations ongoing in trying to renew that agreement.
All right, we’re on page 15, Justice continued, Operations Expenditures, Community Justice and Corrections, not previously authorized: $214,000. Agreed?
Justice continued, Operations Expenditures, Community Justice and Corrections, $214,000 approved.
Total Department, not previously authorized: $2,764,000.
Total Department, $2,764,000 approved.
Okay, we’re moving along to page 16, Education, Culture and Employment, Operations Expenditures, Directorate and Administration, not previously authorized: $677,000.
Education, Culture and Employment, Operations Expenditures, Directorate and Administration, $677,000 approved.
Education and Culture, not previously authorized: $569,000.
I just have a question for the Minister on the insurance for the fire at Chief Albert Wright School. I am curious why insurance costs don’t cover this $451,000 plus the previous $188,000 for cleanup.
The practice is that as we self-insure, we have deductible limit. We would pay for this work to be done up to the maximum amount, then insurance would kick in. Even if insurance were to kick in, we would have to make the expenditure, and then we would get the return on the insurance file at a later time.
So this would be one of the expenditures that could be reimbursed?
The total of the amount we had to pay out this fiscal year might be included in our self-financing portion, which would be our deductible. We’d get that information if this would be something we could get reimbursed or if we’re still under our own deductible limit where we have to pay our own costs at this stage.
When we’re done, I’d like to go back to page 14, but I know we haven’t finished the page.
Seeking the committee’s approval to move back to page 14. Is there agreement?
Agreed.
Okay, we’ll move back to page 14. Which line item did you want to talk to, Mr. Hawkins?
Under Courts there is just an observation of $664,000 that is spent on court-ordered psychiatric assessments. My first question on this is: do we provide psychiatric assessments in the Northwest Territories?
I’d have to go to the Minister of Health and Social Services to look at whether the Department of Health and Social Services provides this service. When cases are going before criminal court, a presiding judge has the authority to go ahead and order an accused to undergo a psychiatric assessment. We would have arrangements with Alberta if we don’t have those available in the Northwest Territories.
My question, probably misunderstood, had nothing to do with the direction to order court-ordered psychiatric assessments. It had to do more so with whether we provide those services in the Northwest Territories.
I would have to get the details from the Minister on that piece.
I believe this item speaks to the provision of psychiatric treatment for those who are in the criminal or justice system and who are in need of having that treatment or that assessment. The information that the Minister Responsible for the FMB read out states that that is the case.
If the Member wants to know about the health question, we do offer those services. We may not be able to offer all those services in the North, and if that’s the case, they will be referred south.
I’m just concerned that, if we’re offering these services of psychiatric assessment in the Northwest Territories, as the Minister seems to allude to, why are we not sending these folks through this court-ordered process to the professionals that we have?
Mr. Chairman, in this area, for example, the Department of Health and Social Services are providing these services to residents of the Northwest Territories and could be to their capacity or, as well, potentially locums filling in, in a number of those cases, as we have in many other cases of specialists.
The court process. There is an arrangement that deals with the Alberta government and the Capital Health Authority, I believe, that provides this service through their court-ordered psychiatric assessments that are conducted, and they have an arrangement through a contract in that area. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, everyone is making a big deal out of the fact that, oh goodness, we have to send them there, but I want to first find out how many court-ordered assessments have been issued, and how much is the typical rate that we would normally pay a local psychiatric person/professional to do this job? Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, the Member is asking again for more detail that goes between two departments, so we wouldn’t have that available to us here. We do have, for example, the court-ordered psychiatric assessment, the data, and we’re projected in 2007-08 to have assessment days of approximately 611, a significant increase from previous years. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, if I got that right, we had 607 assessment days in total. Now, was that all court ordered? What is the cost of a psychiatric professional if they were to be staffed at this end? Thank you.
Once again, Mr. Chairman, the Member is asking between two departments what the assessment rate or what the rate is that the Department of Health and Social Services provides for this area. I can provide him what the assessment rates are under the existing agreement for court-ordered assessments through the Capital Health Authority. The total amount is highlighted at 611. That’s an increase of approximately 450 more assessment days than they had anticipated. What the charges, for example, would add up to — I don’t have a daily rate, but we’re looking at $1,300 a day by the 611 days. Thank you.
What does it cost to hire one of these professionals if we were to staff them at Stanton Hospital? Thank you.
We’ll have to get that information for the Member.
Mr. Chairman, I think this is an example of where we’re sending people to Edmonton, to the Capital Health Authority, for a service that I think we could provide here at a similar cost. If we’re going to pay $664,000 for this, if you’re adding the cost of the assessment, not including the travel and whether it’s getting somebody out of a community, which costs even more than it costs to get out of Yellowknife, probably double or triple…. If you have to send somebody with an escort or if it’s court-ordered, whether you have to send them with a professional such as somebody from the sheriff’s office, all of a sudden hiring one more psychiatric specialist is starting to look pretty cheap. So I would like to make that suggestion.
I would also like that comparison brought forward when they send the rest of the detail to me at that time. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I think the comment about looking at, in a sense, bringing the services to the Northwest Territories is a good one. And we’ll get that information, again, put together with the rest of the commitments we’ve made in this area.
As well, we have to realize that in past practice when we’ve in a sense repatriated services to the North, it’s not always ended up being less expensive than the current way of doing business. But this looks like it could be a good candidate. Thank you.
We’ve concluded page 14 previously, so we’ll be returning to page 16.
Education, Culture and Employment, Education and Culture, not previously authorized: $569,000.
Education, Culture and Employment, Education and Culture, $569,000 approved.
Advanced Education and Careers, not previously authorized: $194,000. Mr. Ramsay.
Mr. Chairman, I just had a couple of questions in regard to the increase — and I guess it was a negotiated increase — to the lease for Aurora College in their current location at Northern United Place. It’s a substantial increase of close to 30 per cent. That is what I calculated. I’m not sure who we’ve got doing the negotiating of leases, but I think we didn’t negotiate a really good deal if we were paying $660,000, and now we’re paying $900,000-and-some. It’s a substantial increase.
I just wanted to put on the record that I think this deal is for five years. And at the end of this five years or during this next five years, we have got to come up with a plan to build a college, a permanent home for Aurora College here in Yellowknife. There has to be a stand-alone campus here in Yellowknife. We can’t continue to be paying
$1 million in rent every year to Northern United Place. We have to get a dedicated facility up and running within the next five years, and we’ve got five years to do it. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, the previous lease amount was entered into ten years ago. As we realize and are seeing, the occupancy rate here in the capital has changed significantly since ten years ago, hence, the increase of the new negotiated lease amount. The Member is right: it is for a five-year renewal.
Of course, every government would have to look at its options to see what’s available. The department can look at that. But again, with our tight fiscal environment, coming up with actual capital dollars to build a facility versus leasing is something that is also going to be part of the equation.
Mr. Chairman, I was just going to reaffirm that I hope the Department of Education, Culture and Employment is taking this seriously, the increase, and that I too – Mr. Ramsay beat me to the punch –- think that this is now a serious demonstration of how we could fix some of our expenditures and our problems associated with that.
On top of that, a lot of people know that this would bring a new and much higher profile to the college, that I think it requires and is also hungry for, because I think this college now wants to continue to grow. As well, it has potential, I think, of migrating towards more of a university format. I have big expectations for this to continue. And I think this is the underpinning point: $1 million a year for a lease cost is a lot of money. I hope the Education Minister is listening very closely, so we have high expectations that they move very quickly on coming up with a solution.
I’ll tell you that five years is going to go by very fast, and someone is going to be sitting there, hopefully not sleeping at the switch, going, “Oh, my goodness, we didn’t plan for a university or a college campus,” whatever it’s going to be at that time. Then we’re going to have to renew for another five years. I’ll say to the Education Minister: heed our warning at this time. We want to be able to move forward. Thank you.
The Member will have plenty of opportunity during the business plan stages of our budget development process to work with the Minister Responsible for Education, Culture and Employment. Right now, as identified and as structured in the Northwest Territories, the headquarters of the main Aurora College is situated in Fort Smith with campuses in Inuvik and Yellowknife as main campuses, and then we have smaller facilities in other communities. Thank you.
