Mr. Chair, I move that $225,000 be deleted from the Interim Appropriation Detail booklet amount set out in Schedule 2, Capital Investment Expenditures, item No. 5, Justice, on page 6, for the project North Slave Correctional Centre — Aboriginal Healing and Spiritual Program Area. Thank you.
Motion is being distributed. Motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McLeod, the mover of the motion.
Mr. Chair, we’re faced with a situation where we’ve got cuts that we’re hoping to make. And I’m all about rehabilitation. The fact that I’m going to put up some infrastructure…. Is that an infrastructure area? Is that going to help the matter?
In my opinion, the aboriginal healing and spiritual program area should be right here. That’s why I want to move the motion to delete the $225,000. We’re facing cuts all over the place. And there might be some cuts to programs where it actually helps the victims of crime, and $225,000 can go a long way toward doing something like that.
If it’s a program that is really required and needs to be brought in, in another Assembly, then I’m all for it. I’ve always spoken for the victims of crime, and I said I believe in rehabilitation. And I say again, it starts right here, not in some piece of infrastructure. I would be glad to move the motion and support it.
This is another capital investment in my riding — it’s at North Slave Correctional Centre.
I guess I am, by default, the MLA for a lot of the inmates at that centre. I do receive a number of calls from inmates that are incarcerated there. One of the things they always talk to me about is the fact they don’t have enough in terms of programming on the rehabilitation side, and they could use more work in that area.
The majority of the inmates at North Slave Correctional Centre are of aboriginal descent. I believe we should be doing more to try to rehabilitate them, to give them the necessary tools as to why they are incarcerated so they don’t end up back at North Slave Correctional Centre and phoning me about programs that aren’t there and help that’s not there when they need it.
I do appreciate what my colleague Mr. McLeod is saying and others who are looking at deleting this amount. But for me, it’s an important area. It’s one I think we should be spending more time and effort. It’s going to take some resources as well to do this. This is a start, and we’ll have to see.
I’m going to have to vote against the motion.
This particular program has been addressed by inmates, of course. There’s been some discussion among the inmates and the guards that was brought to our attention. There is a healing program needed at the correction centre and outside the environment of the centre. This is part of rehabilitation that we talked about. I see it as a healing path, coming back to society after what’s been done.
We are putting this forward based on the call of the inmates. That’s why we’re here providing more information that I didn’t share earlier. What we’re doing his is providing a rehabilitation program for inmates. I feel it’s a worthwhile program, especially when we have elders coming into the facility to conduct a spiritual healing, putting them on the right path to go back to the general society at large.
This is an extremely elaborate facility to be built. I don’t know what it topped out at — $50 million or so. There were things designed into the building for meeting together. I definitely know there was an aboriginal healing meeting room component. I toured the facility; I saw it.
If you’ve got this kind of money to throw around, I would rather see it go into some kind of programming. It isn’t about the stones and the bricks and mortar. That isn’t what’s going to heal people. If you want to bring people in and have elders come and talk to the people, put the money into programming.
SMCC in Hay River has an area out back of the facility. We were just there; we had a tour of it. The Minister was just down there. The Minister of Public Works was there too.
They have an aboriginal healing and spiritual program area. Just about everything in there was donated. They have a tent frame, furniture, a big wood stove and different little cabins and stuff. People actually became resourceful and put some materials together. They built a very interesting area where the inmates were involved in actually building this, and they take some pride of ownership in this.
I don't think we need to put this kind of capital money into something like this. There are all kinds of different ways of accomplishing some infrastructure, if that's what they need. There’s nothing stopping them from getting materials and building something that they want. That's entirely what they did in Hay River. There's a tent frame, a tipi, a cabin, and a coordinator. They take road trips; they go to communities. They do all kinds of things. It’s all about programming.
So to spend over $200,000 on infrastructure, no, I can't support the expenditure. I'll be voting in favour of the motion to delete.
Mr. Chair, those comments Mrs. Groenewegen put forward were essentially what I was going to say. The spiritual program area…. I was getting a little confused there and finally realized that we're really talking about an area, not a program.
I think programming does deal with issues of the heart and healing and so on. So that's where I'd sooner see the resources put. If we want to build something, it would probably be healing for our inmates to do the building and save some there.
Yes, I also am having strong second thoughts on this one.
Mr. Chair, I don't know whether it’s the female perspective that Mr. Bromley referenced in his Member’s statement or whether we're just smarter than everybody else, but I was going to say what Jane was saying, and then I was going to say what Mr. Bromley has said.
I have difficulty with $225,000 on a structure. This is a capital investment; it’s not operations. I have no problem with a program. I believe the programs are necessary, and they ought to be there. The construction of this particular area could be a program in and of itself. Having the inmates build this area would probably be as valuable to them as somebody else building it and them going there. I do have difficulty with the fact that we're going to build this area.
I will support the motion.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to request a recorded vote. Thank you.
A request was made for a recorded vote. All those in favour, please rise.
Mr. Robert C. McLeod, Mr. Jacobson, Mister…. Help me, now.
Laughter.
Mr. Beaulieu, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Menicoche, Mrs. Groenewegen.
All those opposed, please rise.
Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Lafferty, Ms. Lee, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Roland, Mr. M. McLeod, Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. B. McLeod, Mr. Abernethy, Mr. Ramsay.
Any abstentions? The motion is defeated. Seven in favour of the motion, ten against, no abstentions.
Committee motion not carried.
We’re dealing with Justice, appropriations authority required: $1,610,000.
Justice, $1,610 million, approved.
Education, Culture and Employment, appropriation authority required: $21,626,000.
In the proposed main estimates last year there were supposed to be $19.5 million for the new school in Inuvik. Now I notice it is down to $9 million. It is a concern to residents in Inuvik that this whole program is going to be pushed back for a year. The field has been torn up. It’s poor planning. No piles are going in now until next fall. We were all expecting the bulk of this project to be started this summer — piles this winter and the actual building starting this summer.
I see the numbers have all changed. Am I to assume that by approving this appropriation for capital, I would be basically saying to the people of Inuvik that I have supported moving back the school project for another year when we were all under the impression that we were going to have the bulk of our school started this year? We are talking about a school for children, not $225,000 for inmates — and that we put through.
I’d like to ask the Minister: what I will tell the people in Inuvik who thought that the bulk of the work was going to be…? Because that’s the way I read it. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but I see in the ’09-’10 estimates that we are looking at $35 million. We’ve got $9 million for this year, whereas we had $19.5 million that we approved in last year’s main estimates for the ’08-’09 spending.
I look at it as me approving the push-back of our school project for another year. I can’t do that.
Mr. Chairman, the project is scheduled to continue. The piles are scheduled for the fall of 2008, with panel construction to be completed by 2012. That’s on both facilities. The complex facilities are both adjoining each other.
The work or the review… .The cash flow has changed, as the Member stated, from ’08-’09 to ’09-’10, because that is a reflection of the work that they will be able to get completed. So the work is still proceeding. But from where they are today, they would not be able to complete as much of the work as they had scheduled.
The construction is continuing. It has not been delayed for a year, and nothing happened. They are still going to be working on the project, but it is taking a little longer to get the work done.
I would like to ask the Minister. My understanding was that construction was supposed to start this summer. I think that was the understanding of the residents of Inuvik. I would like to ask him: why it was delayed for so long? Is it because of the planning?
I think the people of Inuvik have done their part. They put in their input.
Is it because we’re faced with a $135 million shortfall that we move it into next year? We all had the understanding that the piles would be in this winter for construction to begin this summer. That’s the reason our whole recreational area for children and adults alike was torn up. Now, if they’re doing the piles next fall, then we live a whole summer with a torn-up recreational area. I’d like to ask the Minister: why was it delayed to have the piles laid this fall?
As to the work, there have been ongoing meetings between the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, the consultant they’ve hired, as well as the District Education Council and the authority, along with other parties within the community, about the work that is progressing. For the actual detail I can have Minister Lafferty, as the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment…. Maybe he’ll give more detail than I can provide at this time.
The work is still continuing. As the Member indicated, we are still at the planning stages. The design development is scheduled for March 2008. That’s in the works. Site grading, drainage and ball-field work will continue in the spring and summer of 2008. So there is work scheduled for this summer and fall. The site work is scheduled to be complete in the summer of 2008.
The Member indicated it had something to do with an announcement. No, it doesn’t. The announcement of the $135 million that he referred to…. These two projects have been on the books. We are continuing with the project. Both our department and the community have met with PWS as well, in Inuvik on January 24. We did a presentation to them on the actual current status of where we’re at.
We are making progress to move forward on this. We certainly wouldn’t want to see this project on hold. We are making progress and proceeding with it. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.
Given the reality of the budget reductions we’re facing and all of those types of things, when I look at Education, Culture and Employment, I wonder why the government is moving forward with renovations on Lahm Ridge Tower. That building had over $900,000 worth of renovations done to it since 2002–2003. Given that we are facing these budget reductions, I’m not quite sure why we have to do another renovation to a building that appears to have been renovated on a fairly regular basis. I’ve been into a lot of the different buildings, a lot of different times, and I was always struck by how nice Lahm Ridge Tower looked inside and how well put-together it was.
My question is: why are we renovating a building that seems to be renovated on a fairly regular basis?
Mr. Chairman, I would have to go to the Minister of EC&E for detail on the plans for this facility.
Mr. Chair, this particular item we’re referring to is a renovation to the existing building we’re in. ECE has occupied that building for almost 20 years without any significant renovations.
The renovations are to meet the immediate needs of the staff. That has been identified by the department, and construction is scheduled for summer of 2008. So with ’08–09, $80,000 been requested to upgrade the facility that we currently occupy. Mahsi.
I guess I don’t quite understand what the definition of significant renovations is. I mean, in 2002–2003 they redid that entire basement. It’s quite nice. It’s got one of the largest boardrooms in it, completely rigged out: nice tables, everything. It looks fantastic. I think that cost about $300,000 and some.
I know they’ve done a lot of work on the second floor. You go into the main floor where the student financial assistance is. It’s quite nice in there. They’ve got all the fancy new desks, and they’ve got a whole new area set up for their computer people. It looks pretty good every time I go in there. It’s put together quite nicely. The third floor was renovated a couple of years ago, as well. They’ve put over $900,000 in renovations into that building since 2002-2003, so I’m kind of surprised by the comment that it has had no significant renovations.
I’d be curious about what it is they’re doing and why in times of cuts we need to keep moving forward and buying fancy new desks and making buildings look fantastic and pretty, when all they have to be is functional and usable. It seems a little odd, so I guess my question is: what do they have to do that is different than what they’ve done since 2002-2003, 2003-2004, and on and on and on? They’ve done renovations in that building almost every year.
The Minister of Education, Mr. Lafferty.
Mr. Chair, I don’t have the specific details of all the previous renovations that have taken place. Our department would have that information, but I don’t have that detailed information in front of me.
No comments? I have Mr. Ramsay on the list.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to talk a little bit about École St. Joseph and the renovation project.
In prior years we approved $9.2 million, and I see that it’s off the books. It’s not included in the proposed Infrastructure Acquisition Plan. I have some issue with that.
We’ve talked a lot about our acquisition planning process and how that’s messed up. There’s a cabinet committee now struck to try to look into revamping that capital acquisition planning process. I think that’s a good thing. If there was ever a reason why, this is it. I feel quite strongly about this one. Because it’s one thing if our planning process is a mess, but when that mess impacts other people, that’s where I have a big issue with that. This just was not right.
I’ve met with the school board officials, and they were under one impression. Obviously it wasn’t the right impression, and there’s no money in ’08-09 for that school. I’m just curious to know when the department was going to let them know. The communication on this has just been terrible.
Again, that’s a question for the Minister. I’d like to know when they told them there was no money in ’08-’09. They had told them subsequently to that. Initially they went out and did the work. I think that’s part of what the $9.2 million was spent on: going out and doing the work that was needed to be done to look at the renovation project. They came back with a figure. I’m not going to get into the figures right now, but the figure was too high. The department comes back to them and says: “Well, you’ve got to do it for this much.” They go out, and they’re scurrying around trying to make the project fit into what the department said they had. They go out and do that work, and surprise, surprise: it’s out of the budget in ’08-09.
Maybe a question to the Minister on the communication side: how did they communicate that to school boards when they yanked projects out for a year?
The Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.
Mr. Chairman, I’ll give you some background to this, and then I’ll pass it on to Minister Lafferty for some additional information.
The Minister of Education, Mr. Lafferty.
Mr. Chair, that particular item has been discussed, not in detail, but the general discussion was that the Catholic school board…. I was invited from the department’s perspective, met with them and talked about St. Joe’s, where it’s heading. At that time I couldn’t share the detailed information, because we were still discussing it as a cabinet.
But the Catholic school board is willing to come back to the table and work with our department. If the cost is higher than what the Member has just indicated, then the board is willing to work with us to identify a consultant to pursue other options. That is currently being discussed by our department with the school board — the particular item. It is still an ongoing discussion between both parties. Mahsi.
I’m just wondering, in this process we have, how we would arrive at a figure of $41.5 million for the renovations at ’École St. Joseph. Is that just a number we pull out of thin air, or who does the estimation for that? Do we work with the school board in trying to determine what that number is, what it should be, how you get there? To me, it’s like you might as well just reach into the sky and yank a number out and put it on paper, because this number is nowhere near what was proposed before, Mr. Chairman.
Again, I just want to ask: how do we arrive at these numbers?
Mr. Chairman, the process that has been used in coming up with our estimates is the one that has been in practice for many years. The client department would list the project on its needs assessment. As it came due for putting it onto the plan, they would work with Public Works and Services to do a technical review as to what would be required, and supplementary estimates would be done.
We have to realize, as these are put on the books…. They could be five years in the making from when they first get onto the books to when they are actually voted on. As we’ve found over the last number of years, we’ve had to adjust projects that have been on the books by an almost 20 per cent markup from one year to the other, just because of the cost of labour, as well as construction materials. So it has had a big impact.
The whole capital plan has been adjusted over the years. The original amount for this project was in the neighbourhood of $22 million. It has been adjusted with the estimates that we now use and the updates on an annual basis.
As well, when we get closer to actual development, the Finance Department, as well as Public Works and Services, works with the appropriate authorities in giving further detail on what is being requested and what is needed in a new facility. That also can affect the price that is being looked at. The Member also discussed the fact that the work we’re doing on the whole area of infrastructure planning and timing is something that needs to be addressed, and we agree with that. We have instructed a committee to begin that work as to the overall planning that is used and what needs to be done to bring our prices back in line with what is considered affordable.
Again, I just think somebody has some explaining to do. This has been on the books for a while. There is a fire at that school, they’ve got insurance money, and they’ve got $9.2 million approved in prior years. They think they’re going to move forward with renovations at that school. So they go out and do the work, and it comes back. The Minister says it was $22 million; it was much higher than that, Mr. Chairman. So they were under the assumption that they could start the work this year and it would be included this year. So they go back, and they’re trying to do their work to try to arrive at a figure that’s half this much — $41.5 million. They were working on those terms, but within weeks or days, the carpet was pulled out from underneath them, and there’s no money in ’08-‘09 for this school. To me, it all happened just like that.
I’ve known for some time that there is no money in ’08-‘09, but you can’t discuss that — it’s not public. This is the first opportunity that I’ve had to raise this issue, but I’m not too happy with the way that this has worked out. You can’t set somebody up and then yank the carpet out from underneath them, not when it’s a school and it’s a necessary piece of infrastructure. That school is 30 years old, it had a fire, there’s insurance money…. There are a lot of reasons why the renovations there should proceed.
Mr. Chairman, this project has been on the books for some time. Work has been done with the school board along with the department. When the fire happened, there was insurance money, but the Government of the Northwest Territories topped that up significantly to get additional portables put into that facility. By doing that, it has given them more breathing room for the number of students in that facility.
When we looked at our overall capital plan and its existing situation, we had to go back to our departments to request that they review their plans to see what could be deferred or re–cash-flowed in a number of areas. On that basis, the department has done its work and come back, and now you see the plan as it is.
Mr. Chair, I’d like to echo the comments of the previous speaker in regard to the École St. Joseph School project. The school is not in my riding, but many students who live in my riding go to that school, which happens to be next door. I do believe that the Catholic School Board shouldn’t be expected to take the delay in the construction of this particular renovation.
My question for the Minister is: what has been accomplished by the $9.2 million in total or the prior year’s expenditures? Or if that money is sitting as a carryover, will it be available to the school board for them to start some kind of construction or finalized design and move toward awarding a construction contract in this next fiscal year?
Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding they will be carrying or requesting a carryover. I’m not sure of the exact amount, but they will be carrying over some of the money they haven’t expended in prior years, and that money will be available to them to continue the work they are involved in at this point. There will be some carryover that can still be used as we proceed with this plan.
Mr. Chair, just a follow-up. How much of that $9.2 million has been expended and is not available? Do we have any idea of the carryover amount that will be available to the board?
Mr. Chairman, they are still using some of those funds, as our year progresses. Until we have the year-end, to look at what the carryover is, we wouldn’t be able to give that detail. We could probably go back to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to work with the school board to come up with what is remaining, a snapshot of a certain day and point in time. As for the actual amount of carryover, that will have to wait until year-end, when we do our final sup of the year.
Mr. Chair, I move that $80,000 be deleted from the Interim Appropriation Detail booklet amount set out in Schedule 2, Capital Investment Expenditures, item No. 6, Education, Culture and Employment, on page 6, for the project Lahm Ridge Tower renovations.
Motion is being circulated. Question is being called. Motion is in order. To the motion. Question is being called.
Committee motion carried.
Mr. Bromley.
Mr. Chairman, I noticed we have at least three school boilers being replaced at a cost of $2 million. There’s some energy efficiency in there that’s going to save, hopefully, fuel and greenhouse gas emissions and reduce our operational costs. I’m wondering whether or not we’ve looked at pellet boilers, given that we’ve got some examples of great savings.
I’d like to point out, in the most recent example, Sir John Franklin High School, right here in Yellowknife, in the most recent contract, they were paying $1.07 a litre. They are now purchasing heat or will shortly be purchasing heat at $0.80 a litre, without any capital costs for that pellet boiler. That is none.
We’re spending $2 million here. I see huge opportunities to pay no dollars on capital. Simply purchase heat at reduced cost and essentially zero emissions. This is the sort of thinking I’m hoping to see here. Once these systems are in place and we’ve spent $2 million on them, we’re stuck with them. Can I be assured that this has happened or that we’ll take full advantage of the window of time left to see if we can’t replace those high-efficiency but conventionally-fuelled boilers with pellet boilers that will eventually, undoubtedly, be fuelled with local biomass providing considerable local employment.
Mr. Chairman, the boilers identified for replacement, as the Member highlighted, are to use a more efficient system. The one fortunate thing to point out is when we can capture the market — that is, take advantage of the lower-cost products as well as companies that are willing to enter into agreements where you can replace the existing unit and just pay the O&M, in a sense — that is a benefit. In a number of areas, we are unable to continue with that type of practice because it’s just not available. As well, I’ve been informed that the cost of the materials — the pellets — to run these units…. The further we get away from the capital, the pricier the product gets. I believe the Minister of Public Works may be able to give some more detail on that.
Mr. Chairman, there are a number of projects underway to replace boilers at different locations throughout the Territories. Most of the boilers are in need of replacement because of their age. The one in Fort Simpson — Deh Cho Hall, scheduled for demolition — was on a steam boiler heating system that was over 50 years old. We will be incorporating a new boiler system into the schools.
Also, Chief Jimmy Bruneau School is in need of another boiler. That is the one community we have targeted to replace the existing boiler with a pellet stove system.
We have been looking to see what we can do at other locations. It becomes very difficult to determine the viability or the economics of what it would take to put in boilers in some of the isolated communities. It doesn’t seem to be feasible, but we are looking at more work in that area.
Of course, we have looked at the other facilities that we can convert to biomass or wood pellet boilers. We’re looking at a DOT maintenance shop in Hay River; we’re looking at the River Ridge Correctional Centre; the Territorial Women’s Correctional Centre in Fort Smith; and the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre in Hay River. Those are the ones that are targeted.
We are meeting and working with the City of Yellowknife to install wood pellet boilers at the Yellowknife pool, the arena, and the curling rink. They are looking at Sir John Franklin High School, to investigate the possibility of doing that.
