Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. A motion is on the floor and is being distributed now.
The motion has been distributed. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is an exciting day for me because I have been trying to promote the use of laptops in Committee of the Whole for a long time. I’ve looked around Canada and I’ve seen that most Legislatures, including the House of Commons, allow the use of laptops in their proceedings and allow them to do the work required at the same time as normal House business goes on.
Mr. Chairman, I think this is a bit scary for some Members and it certainly would be new for others, but the thing here is it would allow Members to do work at the same time. I see it as a working tool brought into the House during what I would perceive as the least disruptive manner. Thinking green, Mr. Chairman, this allows us to type our Member’s statements instead of writing them out by hand, then taking them upstairs and retyping them. It also allows us to look towards the future through an e-process which allows us to get motions e-mailed to us as well as other committee documents, so it would mean less printing of paper in a needless way.
Mr. Chairman, in a working matter, this would also allow us to respond to e-mails while we are sitting here in Committee of the Whole and other Members are questioning the Minister through that process. So this could save a lot of additional time. At this time if we proceeded in this manner, this wouldn’t cost the Assembly anything additional in any way because it would simply be a test to the process and Members can bring their own personal laptops down to the House.
As I understand it, it’s already wired, which means it can facilitate laptops to be done in a seamless way…Sorry, brought into the process in a seamless way and, of course, if the test proved to be worthy of proceeding further in the future, then we could look at logistics, working with the Board of Management.
I am just going to close and allow Members to have some debate, but this really opens the door to a new way of thinking and a new way of doing business. In my view, this doesn’t detract in any way from how we do business. This just enhances it with the tools we have at our fingertips now which would simply be a laptop and, of course, the BlackBerries. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will close debate at that time.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Next on my list is Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to support the motion because it’s for a trial session only and there are other motions here that I will speak to later in regard to laptop usage in committee meetings. My own view on this is because the advent of technology and the BlackBerry-type devices in Committee of the Whole can and should be used by Members to receive e-mails and maybe keep us in the House instead of going back to our offices to check our e-mail. To me, that’s the most important aspect of it. If it ever did come down to a vote, and I think it’s something we should try and I will support the Rules committee on the trial run on laptops, but I don’t think permanently that laptops have any place in the House itself. I could be convinced otherwise about committee meetings, but I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that we are here to work, to speak on behalf of the people we represent, and distractions are distractions whether they are newspapers or computers or whatever. The less amount of distractions we have, the better.
Again, I am going to support the motion, but in the long run, I think with BlackBerries now….Laptops in here is a non-starter for me. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next on my list is Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much there, Mr. Chair. I, too, will be voting in favour of this motion. I think the key thing for the writing of the motion is to evaluate how it works. Much has been said that other jurisdictions allow it and the time that we are looking at is not in the formal sitting of the House. It’s during Committee of the Whole, which is considered as the Lower House in our Assembly and a little bit more informal. We can loosen our ties, sit without our jackets, it’s not really that formal. So it goes with the communication devices as well, because I, for one, often find that I write a lot of my letters and memos while other Members are addressing their concerns in Committee of the Whole. I feel that a laptop would be just doing the same thing. I think the key thing is we should at least evaluate it and assess how it works during this winter session and that’s why I will be supporting this motion. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Next on my list is Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the work of this committee and I know they’ve given lots of thought and debate and discussion to this controversial recommendation. I do not support this motion and I don’t take the use of it by other governments, all of which engage in party politics, as a model that we should necessarily follow or a reason for following this model.
Primarily I find the use of such devices to be disruptive and to reflect a lack of due diligence and due degree of attention in the proceedings of the Committee of the Whole in this House. Ultimately, of course, the most important tools we have to bring to the table are our minds, our awareness and our full attention and focus. The action proposed in this motion would detract from this focus either for those using it or those sitting adjacent.
There is one instrument that I have become aware of that I think would also address the expense of this approach and this would be an expensive approach and our communications, despite some of the challenges we face in this House are becoming more and more expensive as this government allows additional tools to be used. A tool to consider might be the e-readers, which are an electronic reader and can be embedded in the surface of our desk. They are very unobtrusive. We wouldn’t be typing on it but you could call up documents under consideration. It would allow increased focus and attention to the discussion.
I am a firm believer that we should be listening to others’ perspective on issues in their constituencies. After all, we are Members of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories. We have a responsibility to be addressing the concerns of all the people of the Northwest Territories and, of course, with particular focus on our constituents’ concerns.
So I do not support this motion for those reasons and thank you for this opportunity to comment, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Next on my list is Minister Lee.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak in favour of this motion. The chair of the committee, Member Hawkins, mentioned that he’s been fighting for this since day one of his office. I can say that I wanted to have laptops be used in committees as well as in Committee of the Whole since I came into office in ’99. We’ve had numerous debates on this and I would like to thank the committee and chair for bringing this to this stage. I believe that this recommendation is about making the laptops available during Committee of the Whole, not during formal session, respecting the formality of the House here.
Also, I know that for many years the biggest argument or the largest critic of this proposal is we wouldn’t be paying attention to each other if the laptops were in use. I have to disagree with that notion. If we could have laptops down here, it would be great to have all the Members here all the time except when you have to take a break for biological reasons. I think we’ve all learned how to pay attention. We live in a computer age. Actually my dream for a facility like this is to be paperless sometime down the road.
I have to say it’s not just the Canadian Legislatures that are fully equipped with laptops and other technologies. I have had the occasion to visit other Parliaments in Asia and Europe. There are many, many Parliaments where votes are taken electronically and all the documents are transmitted and viewed electronically. If I just think about the papers we produce often, all the Members here get a piece of paper in the morning on the same document, same speech, same motion. There must be 10 or 15 copies of the same thing that gets circulated. You know, computers are here and they are here to stay. Of course, all technology requires us to be responsible. Having a laptop in front of us does not say that we leave etiquette; that we leave the respect we have for each other at the door. I think it is possible that we are adult enough and responsible enough that we will use this technology to help us do our work and not interfere with other people’s work or in any way decrease the respect and decorum that we expect to have in this House. I think this is an important first step.
When I was a Regular Member, I used to treat it as a policy where -- I can’t do that right now -- I had my CA scan every document into my computer because I didn’t want to have any paper. I put them on disc.
Technology is here to stay and I think we should maximize our technology. We can develop protocols as we go along so that we are not interfering with each other. Our rules in the House are our rules and we are allowed to change those. I don’t think having access to laptops or a BlackBerry is any more disruptive than talking to each other loudly or reading newspapers or not paying attention. We could be looking at each other and not paying attention. We could have a laptop in front of us and pay attention to each other.
I think this is a step in the right direction and I support it. At least we are going to have an opportunity to have a pilot. I would ask all the Members, if this passes, to participate and try to make good use of it so we can have good recommendations coming out of it and move forward. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Lee. Next on my list is Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, as a Member of the Rules committee, have debated this motion and the consideration of what motion to bring forward within the committee. I do support the motion. I have some reservations. I am willing to go forward with this at the moment especially because it is a trial and it’s going to be a trial period. I think we need to see whether or not it’s going to work.
I have my reservations because I am concerned that it will be a distraction for some Members to work on the computer instead of paying attention to the work before the Committee of the Whole, whatever that happens to be. But I also temper that by thinking about how many people are not in the House when we are in Committee of the Whole at any one time on a regular basis. So we play one off against the other. I am not sure which is worse.
I am concerned that somebody working on a laptop next to another Member could be a distraction. But, again, I think we need the trial period to figure out whether or not that’s going to be a problem.
Probably my main reason for supporting this is I am, like Ms. Lee, not wanting to contribute to the waste of our trees. It boggles my mind how much paper we use and how much paper we throw away and how much paper we unnecessarily print more than once.
So I see this as an opportunity for us to allow the Assembly, us as Members, to evolve towards e-documents, and e-documents hopefully on a constant basis. We wouldn’t be able to do that if we don’t have some sort of a communication device for us to be able to look up documents. But even the motions, these motions as they are presented to us, we don’t really need to see them on a piece of paper. We could be looking at them on a screen. Complicated documents, that’s a little different, but when it’s a simple motion…One of the examples that just drives me crazy is the Premier will get up and announce the absence of a Minister and it’s a three-line statement but we have to have it on a piece of paper and we take that piece of paper and we turf it, hopefully recycle it.
So those sorts of things are a concern for me and I think for us to try it out, this particular suggestion, may prove that, yes, some things are okay and maybe there are drawbacks, but we’re never going to know if we don’t try it, so that’s why I am in support. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Next on my list is Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just quickly. I will be supporting the motion. I think that if the laptops could make work easier for some of the Members in the House, doing Member’s statements on the laptop or whatever; it is to do some work in here as they wish to do. I have no problem with that. I am not sure that it would be disruptive. It may. I support it because it is for this session only. I think that if, like I said, it can make people’s work easier, than I am in favour of that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Next on my list is Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to support the motion, Mr. Chairman, for now. If I find anybody is not listening to me when I am talking and they are looking at their computer, then I will have to rethink my support. Thank you.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the risk of disagreements with my Cabinet colleagues, I will as well support the motion. This is a trial period. I appreciate the concern of Mr. Bromley. I was once a traditionalist too.
---Laughter
I have accepted the reality of the IT generation that is upon us. So I will support this motion. Let’s see how it works. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Next on my list is Mr. Bob McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also I am a member of the Rules committee and I support this motion. Personally I don’t see the need for a trial period. I think we should go right into having wholehearted use of it but if the committee would like to see a trial period, I will be supporting the motion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. To the motion. Minister Lafferty.
Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. Certainly there are some hesitations with respect to having technologies in this Assembly. At the same time, it is a trial basis. I am more concerned about the costs at a later time when it has been researched. I support it on a going-forward basis, on a temporary basis. Once the cost factor comes into play, I guess there will be debates on that. Mahsi.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought about this and am going to remain with my previous comments to this discussion that we had, that I am not going to be supporting this motion.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. Minister Michael McLeod.
Thank you. To demonstrate, I am willing to live with the will of this House. I was considering abstaining but…
---Laughter
Mr. Chairman, I think the time has come that we have to introduce new technology, whether it is BlackBerries or laptops. I think we should try it out and really monitor how well it works. If it is something that we need to introduce for the long term, then we will do that. We need to make sure that we police it well. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. To the motion. As there are no other individuals on the list, we will go to Mr. Hawkins to conclude debate on the motion.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the defining vote on this issue. I just want to thank the traditionalists who have changed their mind and are willing to give this a try. That is all I will say. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the motion.
Question.
Question has been called.
---Carried
To the next motion, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that the Board of Management and the Office of the Clerk examine the issues related to:
(a)
the purchase of laptop computers for Members;
(b)
planning and installation and additional infrastructure to support the connections; and
(c)
planning for the changes to operational procedures and websites to support the increased use of e-documents in committees and the Assembly and return with a plan and schedule to develop and implement the changes.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The motion is on the floor. The Motion is being distributed. The motion has been distributed. To the motion.
Question.
Question has been called.
---Carried
Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that all standing or special committees of the Assembly consider allowing the use of BlackBerries in a manner similar to cell phones; that is, disruption of Members’ activities is not allowed;
And further, that the use of laptops be permitted by committee members and staff.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The motion is on the floor and has been distributed. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think there is an issue in some of our committee rooms with technology and there is going to be a cost associated with getting committee rooms up to speed with Internet connections and whatnot. I am not sure if this motion speaks to Members using laptops without Internet connections or with Internet connections, because the two are very different things.
I know committee rooms may only have one live Internet connection, so is it the first Member through the door that gets to plug their computer into that live Internet connection or are we going to do any further work on trying to find out what it costs?
Again, I think BlackBerries and the usage of BlackBerries and what they bring to a Member’s ability to check their e-mail and receive e-mails or answer back in a moment’s notice, I think that, to me, answers what we are trying to look at. I don’t know why we need to go to laptops in committee meetings. I don’t agree with laptops in committee meetings, personally.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next on my list is Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I would like some clarification on the motion. If Mr. Ramsay’s understanding is that this is referencing laptops, that is not my understanding. It is talking only about the use of BlackBerries in standing and special committees. Laptops would only be…Oh, it does say laptops. I beg your pardon. I was thinking it was only for staff.
I do have a problem with laptops in committees, because I think committee work requires our minds even more, perhaps, than the House. There is not as much…I don’t think we have as much room for laptops and so on. At this point, I am willing to see. If I read the motion right, it simply recommends that committees consider it, so I think this is leaving it up to each committee to determine. I think that individual committees may determine that, yes, they want laptops or, no, they don’t. We can have that debate within each committee. I guess having said all that and round and round and round and round, I am in support of this motion because it allows each committee to make their own decision. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. To the motion. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also disagree with the use of laptops in committees and I will be voting against this motion. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The issue, really, the key word here, is to “consider” and what this does is facilitate that type of discussion in a committee. Although laptops and BlackBerries were broken out into two separate, distinct paragraphs here, the intent, as I recall the Rules committee, was to allow us to facilitate this opportunity to have them within that type of committee. Ultimately, the committee itself will have the overbearing position of being able to say, look, this is going to be an allowable device or not. By the Assembly here approving this doesn’t mean that a committee can’t rule and say it is not.
The last point I want to emphasize on this is this allows the facilitation of any further investigation. As we know now, not every committee room such as committee room ‘B’ has Internet connection, but this allows this type of discussion to move on to the next phase. Is this considered reasonable? What are the costs? Does it really work? Those types of things.
Mr. Chairman, if I am to underscore one point it is to say that the independence of each committee is still allowed to govern itself. Just by now passing a rule that this is now an acceptable item, committee can say that they didn’t want this. They could strike it down if that is what they want. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Ramsay
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My reading of the motion isn’t that something different. I would like to propose an amendment. I think after the use of BlackBerries, maybe we could include “and laptops” and take out that last paragraph. Thank you.
He did speak to the motion twice. That is my fault. Did he just say he wanted to amend the motion? Amending the motion. Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to move an amendment to the motion. I would like to strike out the last paragraph and include the word “laptop” after BlackBerries in the first paragraph.
