Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I know that much has been said about providing housing for staff. It’s something that’s been pressing for our regions and communities for many, many years and I’m pleased to see that there’s a line item in here. I’m just curious, Mr. Chair, about how do people access this funding. Is it already designated for the different regions and communities that are out there or is it proposal-specific? I understand that the...I think it might have been the education council in Nahendeh or the Dehcho education council may have had a specific proposal. I don’t know if they’re accessing this particular fund, but I would be curious to know some of the answers to those questions. Firstly, how do people access it? Is it proposal-driven or is it based on per region, Mr. Chair? Thanks.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister McLeod.
Mr. Chair, this is an initiative that the Refocusing Government has been working on. We’re also working with the Executive to develop a program that would go out to the communities. There are still a number of issues that we have to work out before we come forward with an actual package. These dollars have been placed in the budget as a placeholder. We’d like to start delivering this program as soon as possible but there are a number of challenges and some legal issues that we have to overcome.
Hopefully, we can get around some of these issues, because that’s something that I know in the community of Fort Liard are challenged with. That annually, teachers are hired in the springtime but they show up in the fall time only to find out they’re having challenges with the units that are available. It’s something that I would urge the Minister and government to try to put in place and even create some units this coming summer. Once again, I am glad to see that line item there. Maybe I can shift gears here a little bit.
I know that Mr. Yakeleya was talking specifically about urban native fully targeted line item here just above that, but I think some of the concerns from the communities that I heard is that some of the housing dollars that the Housing Corporation get are earmarked, for lack of a better word, for the urban native, because we don’t have reserve systems here. Some of the communities have actually asked how our specific band access funding from the band corporations, if they are getting aboriginal dollars for housing. So my thoughts around that actually were, can we create a program or look at establishing some of our funds to specifically give it to the band organizations out there to build some houses or create some houses which they can manage if they so choose. It is one thing to say we can manage our own housing but the other thing is the same as the government is facing, yes, you are giving us money for houses but it is the O and M that is the real kicker, that is a drawback. I believe that discussions should occur. I believe that we should actually look at some type of programming that identifies, for our different bands out there, to address this concern. At the same time, I think we need a complementary strategy with the federal government too. Just because they are providing some dollars doesn’t mean that they also can’t provide some aboriginal housing dollars for, I think it is called, off-reserve housing, I think is the word the federal government uses. I don’t know what kind of discussions that maybe the Minister can touch on that he had with his last visit with the federal Housing Minister on this particular topic and he may have represented himself as only GNWT funding, but at the same time there is funding necessary for our aboriginal communities. So I would just like to see how the Minister worked his way around that, what are his thoughts on that, and I don’t think it is about devolving all the housing corporations but it is about addressing the needs and concerns of the aboriginal communities and the band councils out there, about delivering some of their own homeownership programs. Thank you.
Thank you. The urban native fully targeted dollars that you see in the budget here was a federal program that was transferred to us. This program no longer exists except for these revenues that have an agreement in the North Slave. There is no other dollars in our budgets that reference any aboriginal or band funding per se.
Having said that, we do have universal partnership agreements with many bands. We are talking to at least one community in the Member’s riding about delivering some of these programs. We do have a number of asks from other band councils to see how we can work together to better address some delivery in the communities and operation of our units. We will continue to move that forward.
The Member has also asked about federal discussions. We did not engage in a discussion about aboriginal housing at our last meeting with the federal government. I have historically raised it. The previous Liberal government had shown some interest in putting a program together, but that went by the wayside and this new government has not really picked it up. The aboriginal communities are still quite concerned over this and it is something we have to flag as we move forward and have further discussions.
I was just wondering, I am sure that the Minister and his staff have looked at the federal budget when they talk about aboriginal housing. I don’t know if it’s specifically mentioned in this new budget about off-reserve housing at all or how it impacts our Territory. Maybe I will get the Minister’s thoughts on that. Is there ability for us to access any aboriginal dollars from the federal government or does it have to come, or is it our only reserve? It might be just Hay River and, of course, Fort Smith. Are they the only ones that have the ability to access any of those federal dollars?
We are just checking to see if we had the latest update on any discussions we have had with the federal government. Up to now, all our discussions on housing infrastructure on aboriginal lands or aboriginal reserves and the funding that flows and other jurisdictions get are not available to the Northwest Territories. Our dollars are presented through a Northern Housing Program. The last Northern Trust and also these new dollars that are flowing are geared to that. With the federal government, I think today we are able to nail down a date that we will be able to have things wrapped up and ready for presentation. It looks like we should have some agreements signed off by March 2.
Yes, I just wanted to raise with the Minister that there is a desire out there, maybe create, like I said, maybe a line item that can help our aboriginal communities. Basically we are off-reserve housing and just keep that in mind for any discussions or any new announcements on federal initiatives and how they plan to role that out. I know somehow our government should be able to make the case to the federal government that there must be a way in order for us to access those additional dollars that will certainly go a long ways in helping us out there, Mr. Chairman. Thanks.
It is something that we need to engage in. This is an issue that has been raised by many of the band councils across the Northwest Territories and we will commit to doing that.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to follow up on my colleague Mr. Menicoche’s comment on the housing for staff. I am also very happy to see this in the budget and I am looking forward to the plan for how this will be administered, the strategy for allocation, in a way that will maximize the benefit from it. I am wondering, do we have a target, a number of homes or houses that we are trying to support with this amount yet. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister McLeod.
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Our target is $1.5 million. We don’t have it all rolled out yet for presentation and we haven’t got as far as calculating how many houses this will build. That is going to be difficult until we start identifying the areas that we are going in, which communities we are going to work with first and the costing is different in each community. So this, I expect, will be an annual program that will be there for the long term. We are certainly not going to meet all the demands and all of the need out there with this budget, but we need to start somewhere.
Thank you to the Minister for those comments. Absolutely, I totally agree with him. I am wondering, I guess, is the plan to actually build the houses or is it to supplement the communities’ resources towards getting houses in place and sort of extending the benefit of this $1.5 million dollars. Thank you.
Thank you. I guess, in a nutshell, the program will probably…We expect will be designed to support communities to enter into loans or borrow the money from financial institutions and also provide some type of incentive. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list is Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure where this question should be asked so I will ask it here and hopefully it is alright. We discussed during a review of business plans that the infrastructure, the way our infrastructure is determined within the government was being looked at, was being evaluated. Public Works and Services and the Housing Corporation were looking at possibly setting up an infrastructure department. I just wondered if there had been any progress on that initiative or the revamping of that structure since November when we talked about it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We had anticipated that we would be part of the process for next year, so that is what we are working towards.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. As a note, pages 5-62 through 5-65 are related to infrastructure acquisition. The question might be more appropriate there, Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will just ask for clarification from the Minister. When it says next year, does that mean implementation in 2010-11? Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, that is correct.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list is Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask questions on housing for staff as well. I have most of the Hansard as the people ask the questions. I guess I will ask about the Market Housing Program. I am curious about how the Market Housing Program...I am trying to figure out the difference between housing for staff and the Housing Program. Maybe just a little explanation on those to start with, please, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister McLeod.
Mr. Chairman, the Market Housing Program was set up so that we could buy a number of mobile units, waive the BIP policy on it and put them in the communities where there was a demand and have them available for operation by the LHOs and/or for sale. That was the design of it. I think we bought 42 units overall over a couple of years and then didn’t carry it out any longer. The housing for staff is more towards trying to provide incentive to communities, development corporations and businesses in the communities, band councils or municipal councils to invest into providing units for people that are in the workforce and, along with that, we would be looking at potential loan guarantees or some type of initiatives that we may be able to provide.
On the housing for staff, I guess I should just talk about my scenario. In both communities they have capable contractors or capable contractors can be brought into the community to build housing for staff. Would this budget be available for not only leveraging or financing, but also for providing equity to individuals? The problem with building staff housing is that your capital carrying costs are so high in non-market communities that is not feasible unless the staff is prepared to pay a large amount of rent per month. Usually these are rented to teachers who only need to rent 10 months of the year. It is hard to go to the bank with a lease agreement that is for one year long and it is really in 10-month chunks. How does the NWT Housing Corporation hope to address that issue: high capital carrying costs plus a difficulty in obtaining a lease that will allow them to leverage financing? By “them” I mean the contractor.
It is difficult to answer that question. We are not completely done with our discussions with the executive. There are a number of issues that are potentially out there that we need to be very careful we don’t breach. There is a collective bargaining discussion going on. There are also other legal risks that we have to work out before we move forward. We would be glad to lay out the program design to the Members, hopefully in a couple of weeks, as to all the details and how we expect to move forward. Those areas that were raised by the Member are the areas that we are exploring right now.
The Minister touched on something here that I would like to explore a little further. On the collective bargaining issue, it has always been my understanding that it wasn’t a union issue in negotiating because if you are providing subsidized housing to someone in a non-market community where, like I said, it is difficult to provide staff housing for staff because of high carrying capital costs and so on and so forth, it is difficult to get contractors on. I am curious to know what type of actual collective bargaining issue this creates, because I can’t see how the people in market communities that are staff could possibly have an issue with this. I know that has been an outstanding hurdle that, obviously, we haven’t cleared yet. I am wondering if the Minister could explain just what the issue is.
That is probably a question better posed to the Department of Human Resources. The areas that are of concern under the collective bargaining are the issues of potential or what could be viewed as potential subsidy and the other issue is availability of units once we enter a program that may be required to be provided for everyone. So those are issues that need to be looked at and understood properly before we move forward.
I would just make a comment, not to the Minister of Housing but probably to the Minister of Human Resources. If this continues to be an issue, offer this benefit to people provided they are prepared to go into non-market communities. I could never understand how this was an issue. If it is considered a subsidy by people in non-market communities, or anywhere for that matter, then offer that to them provided they are prepared to work in a non-market community where this type of subsidy viewed as a subsidy is being offered. Thank you. That is just a comment.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. We are on page 5-50 which is an information item, finance and infrastructure services, grants and contributions.
Agreed.
Okay. We are moving on to page 5-53, information item, debt repayment, operations expenditure summary. Mr. Yakeleya.
Mr. Chairman, on the debt repayment, I might be not too sure about the question here. In terms of the housing rental in our communities in terms of our debt, is this the place to ask questions on rental collections or is this a whole other issue with the federal government in terms of social housing in terms of debt repayment?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister McLeod.
Mr. Chairman, this pertains to the area of dollars that we owe to the federal government.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. I didn’t see that. It does have to do with the federal government. Maybe the Minister can explain it to me. Some people have been asking, how is it that we are in debt to the federal government under this Canada Mortgage Agreement here? We always seem to be in debt. How is that? That is my question, Mr. Chairman.
I will have Mr. Anderson, who has a better grasp on the history on this, to explain why it is. Mr. Chairman, this amount here is the amount that we are repaying on our debt. The federal government also puts in $9 million that flows through us to repay the debt. Right now, as of April 1st, our debt will be at $66 million. Mr. Anderson would be pleased to talk about the history.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Anderson.
Mr. Chairman, if you go back to the 1970s, the federal government provided loans to the NWT Housing Corporation. At that point they were 90 percent of the cost of a house and the Government of the Northwest Territories contributed 10 percent. Those loans are linked to the subsidies that we get on the operating, the shared costs on the operating costs of our public housing portfolio. As the money on the O and M falls off the table, the debts get retired at the same pace. As Minister McLeod said, the federal government pays the lion’s share of those interest costs on that money as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Mr. Yakeleya.
When will the Government of the Northwest Territories be debt free from this loan or these loans that have been here for a bit? Do they have a forecast?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister McLeod.
Mr. Chairman, we are anticipating that by 2038 we will no longer have the debt.
Mr. Chairman, this is the issue of dispute from our side of things, including other jurisdictions, that as the money falls off the table we would expect the federal government does realize this as a savings now to put it back into social housing. They have not agreed to do that at this point, so it is really affecting our ability to increase our housing stock. As I indicated to Mr. Bromley with this question, we are very much short of what we need in public housing. These are the dollars that allow us to operate our units. It is something that is going to be an increasing issue.
Today may not be such an urgent issue but as we get closer to 2038, this is very serious. I am just wondering within the life of this Assembly. Do we want to pass this on to the next Assembly here? Are there some things in play here that we should be aware of as MLAs in terms of urgency to get some movement with the federal government? I know the social housing issue -- he is right -- is going to be a big issue here in terms of what we are dealing with right now. Our hands are pretty well tied in terms of how we operate.
I don’t want to stay too long on this subject here. It does raise some red flags. Do we need to have a greater discussion at another table on this issue here? This is more of a comment. If the Minister has a reply for me, I will appreciate it. That will be my last question, Mr. Chairman.
I will certainly have to agree with the Member’s comments. It is an issue. It is not our issue. We are not alone in this. All jurisdictions across Canada are being treated the same. We have partnered up with all the other jurisdictions including other organizations in the South and in the other two territories to combine our forces and strengthen our arguments to the federal government. We have had, so far this year, one discussion on this issue. We intend to move forward with the new federal government to raise it and see if we can find a solution to this.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list is Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just a quick question on this page. I am wondering if the Housing Corporation and the government has given any thought to trying to take the Housing Corporation a little bit further away from government, a little bit more arm’s length. I have been thinking about this because housing is political. It is a political beast and constituents come to their MLAs and they want MLAs to intervene on their behalf whether it is arrears or other issues related to housing. I have given this some thought. It seems to me if you take the Housing Corporation as it is today and put it a little bit further away, would we be able to collect more arrears? Would we be able to address things without the political intervention that takes place? Whether we like it or not, it does happen. I’m not sure if the corporation itself has done any work at looking at maybe different models or ways in which it could operate under a different set of circumstances than currently exists today. That is the question I have, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Minister McLeod.
