Mr. Premier, if could get you to thank your witnesses for joining us today. Sergeant-at-Arms, if I could please get you to escort the witnesses out, that would be great.
Next on the list would be the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations. Is committee agreed that we proceed with Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations?
Agreed.
Alright. We’ll go to the Premier for opening comments.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m here to present the 2011-2012 main estimates for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations. The core business of the department is guided by the 16th Legislative Assembly’s goal of a strong and independent North built on partnerships.
The department’s main estimates propose total operating expenses of $7.619 million for the coming year which is a decrease of 6.9 percent, or $561,000, from the 2010-2011 main estimates.
This decrease is attributed to an $864,000 sunset of the resources allocated for the development of a common vision and roadmap for the NWT and $65,000 sunset from the resources used to support the Comprehensive Mandate Review Project. These sunsets are partially offset by a Maximizing Opportunities strategic investment of $115,000 to host the 2011 Western Premiers Conference, and $50,000 to implement the Federal Engagement Strategy, and $198,000 in collective bargaining increases.
During the life of this Assembly five additional negotiation tables have been created by the federal government, bringing the total number of tables in the Northwest Territories to 15. Through the strength and capacity provided as part of the Managing This Land Strategic Initiative the department is well positioned to represent and promote the interests of all NWT residents at each Aboriginal rights table.
It is critically important that our negotiators are supported by up-to-date mandates that offer reasonable solutions and support, and overall workable, affordable and effective system of governance. With investments provided through the Managing This Land Strategic Initiative the department was able to make significant progress in advancing the Comprehensive Mandate Review Project to completion during the life of the 16th Legislative Assembly.
Further investments have supported the work undertaken by the department to implement the GNWT’s consultation framework. All departments are now supported with a number of resource tools including a consultation resources guide and training modules, designed specifically around consultation. Over the past year, officials from DARE and the Department of Justice have jointly delivered their consultation training course to over 70 GNWT staff in all regions.
This past January I had the opportunity to present the results of Creating Our Future Together Initiative to the Members of the Northern Leaders’ Forum. The Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, the Northwest Territories Metis Nation and the Northwest Territories Association of Communities also presented the summary reports of their respective engagement processes. At our meeting, members of the Northern Leaders’ Forum agreed to continue the work of developing a vision for the NWT. We will meet again in the near future and agreed to hold a conference in the spring to further advance the vision and roadmap of our future.
As Premier and Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations I’ve made it a priority to ensure that I met with regional Aboriginal government leaders on a regular basis and I continue to do so. Since taking office we have met as regional leaders 10 times to discuss territorial matters of mutual concern and interest. Through increased engagement on the Arctic Council and in circumpolar relations we’ve been successful in advancing the prospective and interest of Northerners with our circumpolar neighbours. Building circumpolar relationships is important and a valuable aspect of the NWT’s vision of strong partnerships with northern governments. It presents an opportunity to learn from our neighbours and also share our knowledge and experiences with them.
Mr. Chairman, the work undertaken by the department during the life of the 16th Legislative Assembly will serve to advance many of our collective priorities such as finalizing and implementing Aboriginal rights agreements and representing our government and the NWT effectively at all federal, territorial, provincial and Aboriginal intergovernmental tables.
Financing the implementation of self-government remains a critical outstanding issue at all negotiation tables. The GNWT has identified a significant shortfall in the funding required by Aboriginal self-governments to fully implement their agreements and has shared its costing model with regional Aboriginal government leaders and at individual self-government negotiating tables to raise awareness of the issue. The department, in partnership with Aboriginal governments, will continue its efforts to engage Canada to acknowledge its ongoing role and responsibilities with respect to the implementation of self-government agreements in the NWT.
As Members are aware, the NWT will once again play host to the Western Premiers Conference in June 2011. As host, I plan to showcase our great Territory and provide a memorable northern experience for my western Premier colleagues. Hosting this conference also provides us with an important opportunity to influence the meeting agenda and raise the priorities of the NWT among important provincial partners.
That concludes my opening comments and I am prepared to answer any questions committee members may have. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Premier. Would you like to bring witnesses into the Chamber?
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Premier. Is committee agreed that we allow the Premier to bring in some witnesses?
Agreed.
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, if I can get you to please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.
Thank you. Mr. Premier, can I get you to please introduce your witnesses for the record.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my left is Gabriela Sparling, deputy minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, and to my right is Richard Robertson, director of policy, planning and communications. Thank you.
Thank you, Premier Roland. As with previous departments, committee, we’ll go through general comments and allow the Premier to respond en masse at the end. Are there any general comments on Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations? Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In regard to comments made by the Premier in regard to his opening remarks, and more importantly, the Department of Aboriginal Affairs. Again, I think the whole objective of the Aboriginal Affairs is to bring together our northern partners, especially the Aboriginal community and Aboriginal leadership and work with them to basically include them in our processes as government, not only from the Aboriginal claims perspective but the responsibilities we have as a government and as the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, but I think sometimes we lose sight of the Aboriginal Affairs component of this department. I think that because we do now have constitutional obligations, regardless if it’s under Section 35 of the Canadian Constitution, the land claims agreement that has been ratified and signed, but more importantly, the motion that we passed in this Legislative Assembly acknowledging the Government of Canada’s reluctance to sign in regard to the UN Declaration in recognition of the Aboriginal indigenous rights of people in the world, and now that agreement has finally been signed by Canada. I think, from what we’ve seen here in the Northwest Territories, that we are not really living up to the obligation and commitments that we make either by motions that are passed unanimously in this House or even obligations we have under the land claims agreements, which clearly stipulate that this government has a right to consult and not simply saying that we had a meeting 10 times with northern leaders, but it’s clearly spelled out in the land claim agreements in regards to what the definition of consultation is.
I think that through the federal courts have shown that it’s got to be meaningful and it’s got to allow for full participation in the whole consultative process and not simply bilateral by way of someone coming to you saying this is what I’m going to do, I consulted with you, and walk out of the room. This process has to be meaningful, and more importantly, live up to the obligations under the land claim agreements.
For the life of me, I couldn’t understand why the Department of Aboriginal Affairs did not catch on to the land claim agreements, especially in the area where it clearly stipulates that the government has, and it’s very spelled out in the agreement, it says they shall include the Aboriginal governments on any discussion on Northern Accord and devolution agreements.
In light of the groups that I represent, especially the Gwich’in, in regard to a letter that was given to the Premier which outlined six elements of concern in regard to the devolution agreement, and then it took the department in responding to that letter almost seven months from the time that you got the letter from the president of the Gwich’in Tribal Council, which was initiated by the Gwich’in Assembly, in which basically those elements, again, are still outstanding, and more importantly, probably could have made for a better agreement by way of the devolution agreement.
But again, Aboriginal Affairs has an obligation to ensure that we are on top of our obligations either under treaties, land claims rights, Canadian Constitution, Section 35, and more recently, the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. For me, I think maybe it’s time that the Department of Aboriginal Affairs took a course in regard to cultural awareness of Aboriginal cultures in the Northwest Territories, but more importantly, the areas and affects of national or international obligations that we have as government to protect not only the rights of indigenous people but ensure that they are able to carry out their rightful place in the northern social and economic society. I think it’s important that we do a better job of inclusion and not basically consider the role of government to work with the groups that you can work with and most groups you can’t work, well, push them off the table. For me, that is totally unbecoming of a government, but more importantly, unbecoming of a department who has an obligation.
The other aspect, I know, for years, as long as I’ve been here, is that the affirmative action numbers in this department is appalling. Not one Aboriginal person is in senior management in this department. Last time we checked you had a receptionist who was an Aboriginal person and that’s about as close as you got to affirmative action, and yet you call yourselves Aboriginal Affairs. I think, if anything, maybe you should change the title and really reflect what you really are. Again, I think it’s more important that maybe we need a thorough review of exactly where should the Department of Aboriginal Affairs fit in light of an independent department, should it be consolidated under the Executive. I think that discussion should be had as part of the transitional document that we put forward in regard to the upcoming government in regard to the 17th Assembly.
Mr. Chair, I’ll leave it at that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Next on my list is Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to speak a little bit about some of the frustrations from the Dehcho First Nations in the Deh Cho. I guess one of the biggest frustrating things, well, actually, one of the other frustrating things that keep happening, like, devolution was something that they did not need at this time because they just have to dedicate extra resources to find their way around that. But I think the biggest thing and the barrier of the Dehcho First Nations moving forward right now is the subsurface rights that was released by the federal government on the Edehzhie. I think that anything that our government or this department can do in urging Indian Affairs to reconsider this would go a long way in goodwill towards the Dehcho First Nations. Perhaps I can get the Premier to explain a little bit about how he heard of it as well, because I think a general feeling is that they would have advised us first before they advised the Dehcho. Maybe I can get the Minister to explain that a bit in his reply.
As well, recently the Dehcho First Nation has asked about having a role in the new chief federal negotiator. I don’t know if they’ve got applications yet, but who that new person would be they would certainly like to have a role and if there’s any way this Minister can also influence the federal government in trying to address this concern.
Also, I’m very pleased that my riding of Nahendeh will have a role in the Western Premiers’ Meeting that’s going to happen this June. I’ll be pleased to help work on that and I think also I have spoken with the chief and he’s very excited. He sees his role as a host and as soon as we involve the LKFN in the planning and assisting in the planning, I think, the better. It’s quite exciting to have our western leaders and a huge opportunity as well to utilize it to the best of our ability.
Just quickly some quick opening comments there for the Minister, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Comments. Is committee agreed that we have concluded general comments?
Agreed.
Okay, I will now go to Premier Roland for a response to the general comments.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The role of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations is one where we’re, in a sense, and I think the Member may have touched on this, but in a roundabout way we’re the face of our role when it comes to working with both Aboriginal governments and organizations, and with the federal government and with our provincial colleagues, with our communities, quite a gamut of things. In fact, we’ve now stretched ourselves to also deal with the federal government, Foreign Affairs, for example, on intergovernmental issues when it comes to Arctic Council and those areas.
The work that we have done, for example, some of the frustration that’s shared by some of the Members in the files we’ve worked on, it is not Aboriginal Affairs in a sense dictating to departments what has to be done, but through our mandates where we’ve gone through this in the time of this government and are coming forward with those mandates, renewed mandates, that sets the degree of negotiation that can happen, and I must say that we’ve been operating on some very old mandates. I’m glad to see we’re starting to bring those forward for renewal and I believe some of our Aboriginal partners will in fact like the results coming forward on that.
On the consultation piece, I must say that that is one where the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations became directly involved because of the many concerns we’ve heard about consultation and the different levels between departments. So we’ve got that work done and, in fact, working with the Department of Justice we have implemented the training modules. As I pointed out in my comments, we have identified or we have worked with 70 individuals all across the North in that package. The Department of Justice will be taking on the training modules and that part of it as of April 1st on that side now that it’s been identified and we have used court cases, we have used the land claims documents, we have used many resources that talk about Aboriginal rights and how they get defined, whether that is an agreement signed by governments or how the courts have added further clarification on that. So we have used that and that is what we continue to use. In fact, that applies to even the AIP process that we’ve undergone.
In fact, on the other side of it, implementation, we can show with records and minutes of meetings through implementation that from a GNWT side we’ve been honouring the intent of those discussions as well.
Within some of the frustrations I guess shared by Mr. Menicoche, we share very similar frustrations at times. The Edehzhie process was one of those where in fact the parties were informed the GNWT was supportive of the decision made by the federal government and we quickly reacted to that and in fact had their key staff person go back to the Dehcho and tell them that in fact that was not the case. In fact, we directed the Minister responsible to write a letter to the federal government and the Minister responsible to tell him that in fact we are absolutely not supportive. What we are supportive of was the existing process being extended until the final work that was done, because we felt that we were close to a decision point on Edehzhie and on that process felt that it should have been extended like many of the other agreements were. That’s what we continue to hold and support. In fact, I contacted the Dehcho grand chief, Mr. Gargan, on that.
On the chief negotiator process, we’re not involved in that. The federal government is key to that and we have no influence on that process of their selecting a chief negotiator.
On the western Premiers, I hope to, as I was saying in my opening comments, be able to showcase the North from around the North and our cultural events and try to get as much of our vast Territory in and highlight that to the western Premiers. I think probably even more importantly is the fact that we have the pen on the agenda to help get our subject matters on the table, a little more prominence of doing that. In fact, we’ll have a delegation team from there going in to Fort Simpson to meet with the chief and the mayor to go over some of the initial work that’s been happening on this.
Thank you, Mr. Premier. Committee, are we agreed to proceed with detail on Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations?
Agreed.
Consideration of detail begins on page 4-7, but it’s a summary page. So we’ll defer this until we’ve actually considered detail. So let’s turn to page 4-8. Committee agreed?
Agreed.
Okay, 4-8, Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, information item, infrastructure investment summary.
Agreed.
Moving along to 4-9, Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can we get a breakdown on all those positions based on P1s, P2s, senior management levels in regard to disabled and women in this department? So can I get a breakdown by affirmative action?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Premier Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Out of total employees of 40, we have 13 that are P1, 14 that are P2 and the remainder are P3. The combined that would fit into our Affirmative Action Policy is 67 percent. We have no one self-identified as disabled.
Could you give us what levels they’re at regarding entry positions or middle management or senior management?
In directorate, for example, we have one at P2, one at P1, and both are female. In policy and planning we have a number of P2s and a P1 in our system. Negotiations is where I think we’ve done a fair bit of work that we’ve stepped up at negotiator and chief negotiator positions where we have in negotiations one chief negotiator P1, we have a senior negotiator P1, another senior negotiator and four assistant negotiators P1s that we’re hoping to be able to move up as we’ve put this program in place. Implementation, same thing. We have three in P1 category and three in the P2 category. Intergovernmental relations we have one P1 and three P2 positions.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Krutko? Alright. We’re on page 4-9, Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, department summary, information item, active position summary.
Agreed.
Pages 4-10 and 4-11, Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to understand this department’s role in negotiations on devolution, such as the AIP. It was covered in the general remarks of the Premier under Executive. I’m assuming this department plays a big part in these negotiations. At least the information states they play a major role in all lands and resources negotiations. Could I just get that confirmed?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Earlier in Executive there is a devolution file that holds the resources. For example, hiring chief negotiators and assistant negotiators as well as supplementing some of our legal issues. Our role as Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations in the work, as the Member has highlighted, with our key role in many of the negotiations around the Northwest Territories is a key one. We have a committee of deputies that are involved in the devolution discussions and Ms. Sparling sits as part of that group and ensures that as we go through that work that, for example, the consultation framework that we have in place and our obligations under the land claims and the Constitution work are all followed and made sure that everybody is aware of the positions.
I appreciate that information. I guess I’m a little bit astounded, given our lack of success at getting our Aboriginal partners to the table, that this had no place in the Minister’s opening remarks for the department. I haven’t been able to spot any place in the budget where effort is being made to address this situation which I and others predicted. The greater challenges we face as a result of not having these partners at the table. I guess maybe the question is: does that extra effort that’s now required get reflected in the budget at some point and where would that be in this department?
The other thing that wasn’t highlighted was the regional Aboriginal leaderships meetings funding and processes held within the Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations and a number of our meetings that we had, especially leading up to the AIP, were funded directly through this shop. When it comes to having groups sign on, I mean, I think a number of them have highlighted their reluctance to sign on for a number of reasons. Some of them are more particular to the negotiations that would have to occur and wanting those dealt with up front, which would be difficult to do, especially when you don’t have an agreement framework to operate under. That’s basically what this AIP is, is the framework we get to operate under.
Our work on the consultation process is one that directly involved ourselves as a government and how we responded and reacted in the work we did day to day at our negotiation tables as well as, for example, on the Wildlife Act, issues if there’s any lands issues, transportation, airports, highways, that type of thing, or with health and social services or with housing. There are many times when we’ve been brought to the table on other parts to inform departments of the work that’s required and needed when it comes to some of our day-to-day activities.
I appreciate, again, those remarks on the role the department plays. I guess for now I’m looking at where in this budget it reflects the effort that it’s going to take to bring our Aboriginal partners to the table again in our devolution discussions.
Our role as Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations is support to departments in ensuring that we meet our obligations. The role that we have within Executive will be, or the advice that we provide to Executive, and that’s where the budget and the work that we’ll initiate. For example, under development and mandates, as we go forward we would be involved to ensure that as those mandates are developed, that we are honouring our commitments of existing agreements and protecting those discussions that are ongoing right now. For example, some of the discussions that are ongoing there are interim measures protections that would be incorporated. We would ensure that as those mandates are being looked at that those are incorporated.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There seems to be a lot of duplication between the Executive’s budget and this budget with regard to funding sources. In the Executive budget there were funds allocated to the northern leaders meetings and now here we see the line item here. Also with regard to questions we were asking about that I’m wondering what exactly is the overlap and if the devolution portfolio falls under Executive and the land claims portfolio falls under Aboriginal Affairs, do you have your own legal counsel for when you meet on the basis of both with different legal obligations? One obligation is to the Executive with regard to transfer of powers. The Aboriginal Affairs obligation is under the land claims and Aboriginal rights components. I’m just wondering; it seems like it’s not really clear how those dollars have been allocated. I was just browsing through here and you can see a line item that says there’s some $350,000 for the regional Aboriginal forum and also below that there’s a line item that talks about the northern regional forum. It seems like these numbers are duplicated in Executive’s budget and this budget. What is it?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The area of the regional leaders is not purely about devolution. It is about a number of other matters where there are common issues of discussion ongoing. Devolution was one of those as we got closer to signing and will play a role as we go forward. Clearly that funding that’s identified within this budget is the process of the meetings to go out and do the work.
The Northern Leaders’ Forum piece is that work that’s aside to the Northern Leaders’ Forum as I spoke to earlier around Executive. That table is a side discussion on Creating Our Future Together. We have a shared role in that.
As it comes towards the justice and the legal opinions, we in our case, as we do with every other department when it comes to legal issues, go to our Department of Justice to get their input on the legal terms and conditions that are in place.
Again, even in the Minister’s opening remarks he made reference to the whole idea of Creating Our Future Together but it seemed like the Northern Leaders’ Forum, the only groups he seemed to go anywhere with is the same groups that signed the devolution agreement, which is the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, the NWT Metis Nation and the NWT Association of Communities. I was at the last meeting and it was kind of quiet. There weren’t too many; a lot of empty seats. Just understand that the funding is for the Northern Leaders’ Forum yet there’s another pot of money there for the regional northern leaders to partake in that. I’d like to know what exactly the criteria is for the funding that’s in there to allow the Aboriginal regional forum to get. Is that divvied up between each region? Is that based on the regional representation? Could you give me a breakdown of how that money is going to be allocated to the regional Aboriginal leaders? Could you give me a breakdown by group how that $50,000 is going to be divvied up?
The Northern Leaders’ Forum, we came to the Assembly, got the budget, and as I explained to Members when we went through that process initially, what we thought we would do is one large process and I came back and informed Members that the regional leaders said they knew best what was happening in their regions, so we divvied up the budget to provide regional leaders. For example, this is the way it worked out -- and we’ll get a written document together, a draft that will show. There’s a base amount where everybody got the equal base amount of $19,000. There was a cost of living differential. So if you’re in a more remote area and spread out, that factored into the equation. Cost of living added when you look at that differential made it up to $30,000 for the Inuvialuit, $29,000 for the Gwich’in, Sahtu was $30,000, Dehcho was $27,000, Tlicho was $26,000, Akaitcho was $28,000, and NWT Metis was $25,000. That took into account, as well, the number of communities they had in there. When you look at that and the community factors, the Inuvialuit had a total of $53,000, the Gwich’in had $50,000, Sahtu had $52,000, Dehcho had $51,000, Tlicho had $48,000, Akaitcho had $50,000, and Metis had $46,000. We’ll get that information. Then there was that part of the funding that in previous years we provided to Members on the Northern Leaders’ Forum piece.
Also the government, I know in the past they signed a political accord or protocol agreements between ourselves and Aboriginal governments to sort of form a working relationship. Out of those discussions came, in the case of the Gwich’in, the MOU. I know the Sahtu has the same thing. I’m wondering if there are protocol agreements with the different Aboriginal groups in their regions on how we have discussions with them. Is that over and above this, or is that these dollars we’re talking about used for that type of purpose?
Previous governments used to have in place political accords that were time sensitive, I guess one could say, and could be renewed or avenues selected. Our process has been the northern leaders. We don’t have any additional budgets for protocols. Departments themselves could look at internal resources. For example, the MOUs that are in place have one been decided by the Government of the Northwest Territories of the day and we continue to honour those going forward based on economic activity and that work.
I know I’ll put the Premier in a controversial situation. Did the Department of Aboriginal Affairs get their own legal advice on the devolution agreement from the Aboriginal Affairs perspective and not from the Executive perspective? I’m saying that in the confines of the land claims agreements and the obligation under the land claim agreements which clearly stipulate that you shall include those groups that have those agreements, but more importantly, look at the constitutional validity of treaty rights, Aboriginal rights and in regard to the UN Declaration of how this arrangement has...(inaudible)...because I think that seemed to be the issue that is clouding this, is exactly how this was done, but more importantly, what’s the legal merit of government going ahead and signing the agreement with the minority groups and not the majority.
Mr. Chairman, the Government of the Northwest Territories supported the signing of the UN Declaration as an aspirational document. In fact, I understand that the federal government is now considering signing that same document. For ourselves, as the Government of the Northwest Territories, we are Aboriginal Affairs within the Government of the Northwest Territories and we ensure departments are following and fulfilling their obligations or informing them of those obligations and then we go to the appropriate department to hold them accountable to those agreements. As the Government of the Northwest Territories we get our legal advice from our Department of Justice.
