Mr. Speaker, I have been so preoccupied with caribou that I forgot to recognize my own mayor sitting in the gallery and her son. I have to keep in mind not to miss some other things as well. Yes, I believe that we, because of the continued goodwill between all the parties and the recognition that we want to resolve this, have an opportunity to sort out the immediate issues surrounding the ban as well as engaging the much broader longer term, more important process that is going to flow out of the Wekeezhii process. It will eventually result in a caribou management plan that will include the Bathurst. We will have to speak to what will happen with the Ahiak as well as the Bluenose-East. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Before we go any further, I would like to draw your attention to the public gallery and the presence of a former Member of this House. Mr. Leon Lafferty is with us.
The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again I would like to raise the issue I raised yesterday in regards to the ministerial authority to take the action that he did and exactly where did that authority come from. We have the NWT Wildlife Act. We have the NWT Act. We have treaties. We have land claim agreements. We also have Section 35 in the Canadian Constitution that recognizes an inherence to aboriginal rights in Canada in regards to treaty rights and the rights of First Nations people. I would like to ask the question, under what authority did the Minister make the decision to move forward and the decision to impose this restriction?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member has basically listed the enabling legislation and subsequent authorities that we have used. The Northwest Territories Act, of course, is what gives us the ability to sit here in this forum to do the work of the people of the Northwest Territories. We have worked, and are working long and hard, to take over the decisions collectively as Northerners for the land and resources. Wildlife is one of the jurisdictions that we have authority over, as Minister Strahl confirmed when he was here last week. So the Northwest Territories Act and the Wildlife Act. Thank you.
Thank you. My understanding is that I tabled a document yesterday where I believe there was an Order-in-Council passed in 1960, which basically allowed certain restrictions on certain species in regard to barren-ground caribou, muskox, polar bear and the Wood Buffalo. Is that the authority you’re talking about when you talk about the NWT Act, the Order-in-Council that was passed in 1960, is that where you got the authority from?
Thank you. Clearly that document from 1960 that lists the barren land caribou and muskox, polar bear and bison, is one of the documents that enable us to do the work that we are doing. Thank you.
Aboriginal people have come a long ways since 1960. In 1960 they weren’t even able to vote.
Since then, Mr. Speaker, the aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories and Canada have progressed to a point where we’re finally recognized in the Canadian Constitution under Section 35, which recognized the right as aboriginal people and acknowledges their treaties, Treaty 8 and Treaty 11 in the Northwest Territories, and also upholds the land claim agreements that we negotiated. I believe by not finding the legal opinion on what grounds you made that decision on and not falling back on Section 35 and those land claim agreements, I believe you have not done due diligence by allowing due process in ensuring that you made the decision, you made the right decision and you allowed for due process to take place by consulting all affected parties in this matter. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I didn’t hear a question there. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to follow up on Mr. Krutko’s line of questioning. I did raise it yesterday with the Minister of ENR, Mr. Speaker. I know that aboriginal people come from a proud history. We tell our youth we as aboriginal people, have a special right, an inherent right in our treaties and one of them is to hunt and fish and trap as long as the sun shines, the river flows and the grass is green. We can hunt to feed our people. However, the Minister of ENR implemented a no-hunt zone, Mr. Speaker. No one disputes conservation or preservation, but what we’re talking about today is restricting the right of aboriginal people to hunt, fish and trap, most particularly hunt in this no-hunt zone.
I’d like to ask the Minister again, under our NWT Act, 18(3), it says that nothing shall be construed as authorizing the Executive Council to make ordinances restricting or prohibiting Indians and Inuit from hunting for food on unoccupied lands. However, there is a stipulation about a herd being extinct and I’d like to ask the Minister what document, what research, what definition is he using for a herd being extinct, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think we should also talk about the caribou and the trouble that they’re in and the fact that the herd numbers have gone from 120,000 to 30,000 and that we have to take some action in the short term to make sure that the herd is protected, recognizing that we have to work to accommodate their aboriginal right to harvest, which we want to do and we have done with the Tlicho and we’re working on it with the Yellowknives. We have the authorities under the Northwest Territories Act, any Orders-in-Council subsequent to that, as well as our own Wildlife Act, which is, as we speak, being redone. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Canadian case law is full of examples where jurisdictions tried to prevent aboriginal people from hunting and fishing and they’ve always lost in court. Once again, the Minister is challenging our inherent right to hunt and fish. We’re going to go to court, we’re going to win, but I’d like to ask the Minister right now, we’re not talking about lifting the ban, but we’re talking about allowing our aboriginal people to hunt as they always have for hundreds of thousands of years. So will the Minister consider that seriously and immediately? Thank you.
Thank you. We are not talking about restricting or removing any rights, we are talking about conservation, we’re talking about an accommodation with the aboriginal governments to ensure that their people have access to subsistence harvest. There is agreement by the Tlicho, support by the Tlicho, support by the Metis Nation. We are working on a resolution with the Yellowknives. We are interested in resolving this. The Members in this House now have become legal scholars, well scripted with legal questions from vast talk and smooth-talking lawyers and that’s not our job. If there’s a question about our authority, we can have that discussion. We can fill the room with lawyers and technical staff and we can have the debate about are we a duly constituted government, do we have that authority. I suggest to you that clearly we do. Every land claim that has been signed recognizes the need for conservation and the role of the government to be able to step in, and even in unsettled claims areas, 35-1, as well gives us a process to be able to do that carefully, but we are dully constituted to do that. We’re going to do that very carefully and we want to resolve the outstanding issues with the Yellowknives.
Thank you very much. If the Minister is creating the law or regulation that charges aboriginal people for hunting and getting them thrown in jail, then he is restricting our inherent right to hunt and fish and trap. So, once again, where does he get that authority that’s based on the definition of a herd being extinct? What is the Minister’s definition of this Bathurst herd being extinct? Thank you.
Thank you. The science tells us, the numbers tell us, all the work we’ve done with the communities and all the census information tells us that if we just carry on the next, within about two to three years, the Bathurst herd as a separate distinct herd will cease to exist if we just allow the hunting to continue. We have an obligation and a requirement to do the right things to protect the herd and at the same time respect the processes that are now underway with the Wekeezhii and to consult further with the Yellowknives to come up with a longer term plan. This short-term emergency interim measure allows us to do that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Your final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Once again, no one disagrees with the short-term emergency measures, Mr. Speaker, it’s about restricting the aboriginal right to subsistence hunting. When it happened with the cod fishing, they’re still allowed to fish for cod. So I’d like to ask the Minister to give that serious consideration and tell this House if he can commit to work towards that before March. Thank you.
Thank you. I’ll reiterate my commitment and information that I gave when the Member from Hay River South asked the questions. We have discussions underway. We have agreement with the Northwest Territories Metis. The Tlicho Government has supported our efforts for conservation. We have, and continue to have, dialogue and some clear proposals up for discussion with the Yellowknives and we are committed to hopefully resolving this issue in the not-too-distant future. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to continue asking questions of the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources on caribou. I’d like to start with, well, temporarily setting aside the whole aboriginal rights issue, the urgency of the caribou. Does the Minister fully appreciate what the caribou mean to the Yellowknives Dene and all aboriginal people? Could he describe his understanding of what they mean?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Maybe asking the Minister for his opinion. Mr. Miltenberger.
It should be ruled out.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand here as the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources. I spent a lot of time over the last few years becoming very conversant in all the issues, mainly wildlife that we’re dealing with. Plus I’ve been around for a long time, long enough to know and fully appreciate the value and importance of caribou to the people of the Northwest Territories as part of the fundamental nature and character of the Northwest Territories and has helped define how the people have evolved over the centuries.
I appreciate that note of caution. I do understand that, as well, and I fully understand that the caribou are meaningful and spiritual as well as in the physical and nutritional and emotional ways. And I think we all do in this House. But I’m wondering if that understanding was carried into the consultation process and, if so, during the consultation process did the Minister receive the go-ahead from the Yellowknives Dene for this ban?
The reason we’re still having these discussions with the Yellowknives, of course, is because we haven’t come to a final understanding and agreement on the ban. There is work underway, but, no, the Yellowknives did not approve or support the ban when it was initiated.
Again, this is by way of making sure that we’re all clear on why we are dealing with this issue today. I would for the record like to ask the Minister why he did then go ahead with the ban.
Emergency interim measures by definition, in my mind, we were faced with a need to make a decision to protect the caribou otherwise there would be a possible further precipitous decline and under the authorities that I did have or do have I made that very difficult decision to protect the herd and at the same time engage in the measures that were currently underway to find that area of accommodation and support among the aboriginal governments.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final supplementary, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Finally, I’d like to know – and I’d like to start by appreciating the Minister’s action along with that of the Yellowknives Dene to get together and talk about this, involve the entire community -- how will this process continue and how will support be gathered throughout the range of the Bathurst caribou to ensure that the solution is acceptable to all and put in place effectively and quickly.
I’d like to separate again the two fundamental issues. There’s the short-term issue of the number of months of the ban, which we’re going to sort out here hopefully in the next little while. The longer-range planning within the Tlicho and between the Tlicho and Yellowknives and the Northwest Territories Métis and all the other stakeholders to come up with a harvest management plan is a process that is in fact now underway. The dates have slipped where the Wekeezhii board has not been able to meet its initial targets, but that longer term process is absolutely fundamental to the well-being and survival of the herds and the involvement of all the aboriginal governments through a co-management process.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I listened to MLA Krutko and recall the terms of the rights for aboriginal people that have been fought for long and hard by some very good people. As a matter of fact, my grandfather signed a treaty in 1921, Chief Albert Wright, in terms of having these rights here.
I want to ask the Minister in terms of the protection of the herd and the protection of aboriginal rights with respect to the consultation and this interim measure. The Minister has indicated that he made a decision based on emergency conservation measures. I want to ask the Minister, with respect to the affected parties in the YK Dene in terms of their survival with the herd, has the Minister given that serious consideration prior to putting the ban on this specific herd?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the Sahtu Final Agreement, as it pertains to wildlife harvesting and management, it states there that the government shall retain the ultimate jurisdiction for the management of wildlife and wildlife habitats, and in emergency circumstances requiring immediate decisions respecting policies and regulations in respect to the harvesting of wildlife by any person, the Minister may make interim emergency decisions. We see this as an emergency. We’re fully committed. We’ve got resources ready to work with the Yellowknives. We’ve come to an agreement with the Tlicho Government where they’ve supported this necessity and the alternative measures. We’re working with the Yellowknives to come to, hopefully, a satisfactory conclusion. As well, to address the issue to make sure there is caribou available from other areas. At the same time doing the fundamental issue of protecting the Bathurst herd.
The right to hunt and provide food for our people, to teach them many different methods of survival of the aboriginal people. The issue here is in terms of the rights of aboriginal people to hunt for food for their families for their survival. In terms of the attitudes of governments of the past not to recognize aboriginal rights, this is the attitude I see of this government here in terms of putting a ban on hunting without proper consultation with the affected parties. Is the Minister, in terms of his decision with his staff in terms of having traditional knowledge, let the people decide for themselves how to handle the caribou, will the Minister give that to the people?
We fully respect and engage in the area of traditional knowledge. In fact, when the caribou work was being done in the Sahtu, the Member’s riding, Colville Lake was given money because they didn’t really believe the government numbers about the decline of the herd and they were given money to in fact replicate and see what their numbers told them. They came back with the same information, that there was a decline. The Member helped negotiate the Sahtu Agreement where the quote I just made about where there are urgent circumstances, the Minister has the authority to intervene if it’s necessary and can be justified. We’re in the same circumstances here. The Member should appreciate that he contemplated, when he helped negotiate the Sahtu Agreement, that there is a conservation issue here that we are trying to deal with in the most constructive way possible keeping in mind the need to ensure that there is still the aboriginal right to harvest.
At the time of the negotiations I didn’t know Minister Miltenberger would be our Minister in terms of this issue here. I wanted to say that in terms of making reference to residents of Colville Lake, Colville Lake people, I spoke to them the other day, they had some words for it and I can’t say them in the House in terms of the issue of caribou. The Minister has indicated that. I’ll leave it at that.
I want to ask the Minister in terms of the impact of caribou in this here, has he really looked at the impacts of the diamond mines, vehicles that are going into the diamond mines, has that been given consideration in terms of he is putting a lot of weight onto the aboriginal people and that’s not fair. So I want to ask the Minister in terms of his discussions with the money over food in terms of the impacts of the mines and the vehicles.
The one thing we know we can control in the short term over this hunting season is the hunt, where we estimated that anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000 animals are taken out annually. When you only have 30,000 animals left, that is a significant impact. We recognize there are concerns about the mines, the resource development, the winter road. All those projects, I would add, have gone through a fairly thorough environmental assessment process...(inaudible)...but in fact we recognize, as we do the broader, longer term harvest management plan, the issues of cumulative impact and if we look at all the measures required to protect the herd, are the issues about traffic on the winter road and all those other issues related to the mines there for discussion? Absolutely.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When it comes to the issue here it seems like the rights of the aboriginal people have taken a back seat to the conservation issue here. This is a basic right given by the Creator himself in terms of the relationship with the animals. This seems like it’s been taken away by this government here. That is the attitude. I want to ask the Minister with respect to resolving this issue as soon as possible to give the right back to the aboriginal hunters so they can feed their people. I ask the Minister if he can do that.
That right is there. It’s not for us to change that right. What we want to do is make the right decisions on the conservation side to ensure that future generations have a resource they can hunt in the coming generations for our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and on into the future. That is the requirement for the conservation measures that are currently underway in the short term.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ve got some questions today and I guess I’ll give the Minister of Finance, who happens to be the Minister of ENR, a bit of a break and ask my questions to the Premier. It goes back to my Member’s statement from earlier today when I talked about government contracting and the fact that in 2008-2009 the Government of the Northwest Territories sole sourced a total of over $53 million in contracts. In the Department of Executive, for example, out of 39 contracts, 26 of them were sole sourced and some of these to former bureaucrats. I’d like to ask the Premier what strategy he has to address the fact that we’re relying so much on former bureaucrats and consultants in trying to do the work of the people in the Northwest Territories.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.
