Debates of February 6, 2006 (day 23)

This project was estimated at about $200 million last year, but now it is up to almost $300 million. It is a huge project that I think the Minister would be well advised to put in writing. I am not sure that, this being a future project, should preclude that. My understanding also, Mr. Chair, is that the agreement that the former Minister Fontana gave is to the effect that the federal government will fund it at the back end, meaning that they would only invest whatever their portion is once the project is up and running, which tells me that the federal government is not ready to take those risks and liabilities associated with this project, which puts into question for me the trust and confidence they have in this project. So I think that is something that the Minister really has to work out here.

I have a lot of questions here, so I am going to move into the next question. That has to do with an assumption here which says that, one of the assumptions, of course, is that the ATCO has to win the contract. Let me just state that I don’t have any knowledge or information, but ATCO, I know, is a good company. They do a lot of work. My question here has to do with this as a business project. Is the Minister not concerned that a government is actively promoting a project like this, which the government has already stated in my written answer, that the government has been very active in promoting the Novel initiative? It is right here in the written answer. Is the government not concerned that the Minister and the government spending time and energy and money actively sponsoring a project like this might be seen as interfering with the private market effort? I could see it as we have two airlines, First Air and Canadian North. Would it not be problematic to any third party if the government starts lobbying for one airline to get all the contracts for the pipeline or something like that? Has the Minister ever considered that it might be inappropriate even for a government to sort of back one company and to say, even though the government says it is assumed, this is not going to go until they get the contract…Well, if the government backs the project, the government says they are going to buy from ATCO, isn’t it …It says in the answer here that the government has not really talked to Imperial Oil in a serious way because they don’t want to talk about it until they know that they are going to go with the pipeline, but there is too much of that grey stuff that I don’t really like. I would like to know if the Minister, as a Minister of this government, addressed that question in his mind about whether that is an appropriate thing for him to do.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, there is the only one company in Canada that has a patent on this idea. The company that has the patent is ATCO Structures out of Calgary. No other company has patented the idea. That is what it is. It is an idea of how you take workforce camps and, at the end of the project, and once it is over, you are able to convert it at a cheap cost, useable modular homes. Again, it is all hinging, like the Member mentioned, that once the project is concluded, we will work an arrangement out with the Mackenzie gas pipeline group, not with ATCO; with the outfit that will build the pipeline and purchase these camps. We will take it off of their hands after the project is concluded. Again, it all comes down to federal commitment for the $90 million. Again, that is hinging on the federal decision to go forward with this project and fund it. Without the federal funding, there is no project. Because of those reasons, that is the reason we are looking at this.

I would just like to point out we are not the only jurisdiction in Canada looking at this idea. Manitoba government is looking at it in regards to Labrador and Quebec. There are other First Nations' governments across Canada who are seriously looking at this type of arrangement for economic developments that are taking place in their backyards that they want to be able to see a win-win situation with these developments where you don’t have the 500 to 600 man camps in your backyard and you don’t get anything out of it.

Again, it is the concept. It is starting to spread. Other groups are looking at this. We are not the only group that is looking at it. Again, it all comes down to a company that has a patent and basically they are the only group that has the patent in Canada. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The written answer that the Minister gave to my question says that this project will cost $297 million. CMHC contribution will be $119 million. I am assuming that the federal financing goes in there. GNWT contribution will be $116 million and the industry contribution will be $62 million. Mr. Chair, the Minister states that ATCO is the only one with the trademark of Novel, but that is not to say that that might be the only company in the world who could do some kind of a conversion. I don’t know that. What I want to know is that this government has done due diligence to see that, if anybody is going to spend…I think any company, if a government goes and says, we have a $292 million project, what could you do with this? I am sure a company other than Novel would have thought of something. ATCO might be the only one. I don’t know that, but what I need to ask, as a public official, is that the Minister and the government has addressed that question, that they asked somebody about what could you do with $292 million. I would like to know if the Minister has asked any company unless, of course, he is going to tell me that ATCO is the only company in the world that could do this. I want to know if he could verify that. I would also like to know if the industry contribution of $62 million is coming from ATCO. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Just to make it clear on the contributions from ATCO, there is no contribution from ATCO. The money the Member mentions is that $26 million will be achieved through the selling of the units. So we sell the asset. We will sell enough to retain $26 million through private sales. The other thing is that we are talking here of some 1,400 houses for $230 million. Economically, you couldn’t accomplish that in regards to stick-built construction wherein someone who lives on low income needs to be wanting to own their home can arrive at that. The number we are looking at is about $100,000 to $110,000 per unit. I don’t think that you can go wrong with purchasing 1,400 units for $200 million. If that is the math that we are dealing with, then I would just like to point out again for the Member that there is no industry contribution. That is basically on the basis of sales. There was a letter that was sent. You can clarify that, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Next I have Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to question the Minister a little bit further in terms of seniors’ residences. I guess he mentioned earlier that there are now five seniors occupying the Tuk seniors’ complex. Even though he did mention it in this reply to a written question that I had, I would like to see some historical evidence of occupancy in that seniors’ complex in Tuktoyaktuk, as well as the other ones in Fort Resolution and Deline. It is important that we get that historical type of information.

I was wondering if the Minister could let me know if there are any other seniors’ housing projects in the works at this time in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we are working with a few seniors’ societies to look at expanding their senior allocation. Aven’s Centre is one of them. We are also working with the group out of Hay River to look at seniors’ housing. Also, we can get the Member the historical allocations because we do have a lot of seniors’ facilities in a lot of communities. Most of them have been transferred over or used for other uses such as public housing or market housing or whatnot. So I would like to give the Member that and provide him that information in regards to historical numbers. But as I say, right now we have some 416 people in seniors’ houses in the Northwest Territories. But I can get more information for the Member on it, if he would like it, at the appropriate time.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I am more interested in the Housing Corporation’s involvement in the Hay River seniors’ complex. Maybe the Minister could let me know. To what extent is the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation involved in the project in Hay River? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I believe the Hay River seniors’, we have land that we are allocating to the project. I think roughly the estimate on the land plus I think a bit of cash is $450,000 towards that project. Again, it is subject to different approvals and whatnot. But with the land and the allocations, it is roughly valued at about $450,000.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I can almost guess what the reason would be, but what is the Housing Corporation’s primary reason for involving itself in this project? The reason I am going to say that, Mr. Chair, is I have seen the NWT Housing Corporation’s involvement in seniors’ complexes in the past in Tuk, Deline and Fort Resolution. In light of the failure to get any type of uptake from seniors living in those communities to live in these facilities, I am just wondering if the Minister can let me know or what can he do to assure Members of this House that there will be an uptake from seniors in Hay River to occupy this facility? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will allow the president to respond to that.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Koe.

The complex or the project in Hay River is a coordinated effort with the Hay River Seniors’ Society. They, in turn, are working with a local construction company. There is some ownership partnership arrangement between the seniors’ society and the private company and also, as the Minister mentioned, we are looking at making a contribution under one of our programs where we contribute $25,000 a door, plus the land. We are looking at about a $450,000 contribution. We are looking at building 25 one-bedroom apartments.

The deal is still obviously under negotiation. There has been no agreement signed. The corporation or the groups in Hay River are very close to finalizing a cost. There has been a considerable amount of market assessment done by the groups in Hay River. There has been considerable amount of meetings between the seniors’ society and ourselves in trying to make sure that the project is feasible. So there has been a lot of work, but, as of this moment, there’s no signed agreement. We’re waiting for a formal proposal with the formal agreements with, obviously, all of the protected clauses in place.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess given the past, you know, in terms of seniors’ complexes and folks not moving in and not wanting to live in these things, I’m just wondering, could it be contingent upon the Housing Corporation working with the Hay River Seniors’ Society to get a list? If there’s going to be 25 units there, I think at the very least you should have 12 or 13 names of people that are going to sign up to live in these units because if you don’t, there’s no guarantee that they’re going to be seniors’ units. From what I understand, there were just 12 units that recently came online in Hay River, and I don’t understand why we couldn’t get names before we get out there and try to get something done. So I would like to ask the Minister, could it not be contingent upon the Minister or the Housing Corporation coming up with 12 or 13 clients and get a list of people before you rush out to build this new complex, because that never happened in the past and I’d like to see it happen? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it is a business deal and individuals will have to go to the bank for a large portion of this money and he will have to have a business case to do it. As part of that business case, we will have to have the client or, basically, a customer base to provide these 25 units. I believe that we are looking at that in regards to other places, which we have done that through our Supported Lease Program. I think that through this, again, it is not a completed deal yet. There’s still a lot of legwork we have to go through and we have not signed off anything yet until we see the complete package before we are able to proceed. They do have to be able to prove to not only ourselves, but the bankers and other people to finance this arrangement. So, again, it’s still in preliminary discussions and there is no final decision, but best-case scenario they will have to prove to us that they are able to access the bank financing along with our financing for the best business case. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Ramsay.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Minister and the president know what I’m getting at and that is that it’s easy for somebody to go to the bank. If you’ve got the land and you’ve got I think he said $450,000 in your front pocket and you go into the bank, it’s easy to get financing. Financing is the easy thing to do. Trying to come up with clients to occupy the 25 units, that’s another story. I think you have a lot of work to do to try to find clients that you’re going to put in there. I’ve got no problem with building a seniors’ complex anywhere if the clients are there to fill it. I think that’s what I’m trying to get at, and just before my time runs out, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister, typically in a seniors’ complex like the one that’s being proposed in Hay River, what is the cost of renting a unit in a complex like that, or what do you foresee the rent being in a room like that? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The proposal we’ve seen so far to date is it's $900 a month.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Next I have Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So to go back to some of the questions that I asked previously, I asked the Minister specifically what they’re doing for the people who are hard to house. My question was if not social housing and if not the support of someone or an agency such as the NWT Housing Corporation, then who would be possibly taking these tenants on as clients? The Minister mentioned that they fund NGOs, and I’d like to ask the Minister are the NGOs that they fund -- and I assume he means related to housing and hard to house folks -- are any of them located outside of Yellowknife? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Yes, I believe we fund Turning Point out of Inuvik. I’m not too sure of anywhere else, but maybe the Minister of Health can help me out here, who is the Minister responsible for homelessness. We do, I believe, approve some $450,000 to go to NGOs for the homeless. If the Minister of Health would like to elaborate on the homelessness funding.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is money that’s been put aside for this winter as we continue to work on a longer-term homelessness strategy or strategy for the homeless. There’s some money that’s been identified for Yellowknife and Inuvik and some in Hay River. As well, there’s a fund of $150,000, I believe, that’s been set aside for small communities to use on a case-by-case basis should there be circumstances that arise as there has been over the last number of months. It allows us to, on a short-term emergency basis, deal with those individuals that are called absolutely homeless, meaning they have no warm place to stay. In the longer term, we’re looking at the issue of relative homelessness, but that’s what Minister Krutko is engaged in in the longer term on the issue of relative homelessness. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now I’m confused. Whose money is it? Is it the Health and Social Services’ budget for this short-term and long-term relative homelessness, or is this money for the Housing Corporation? How much does the Housing Corporation put into hard to house, and I’ve got to tell you hard to house is not a short-term problem. Hard to house are people who have issues with their lifestyle perhaps, some have problems with mental illness, some have cognitive impairments, adults with FAS. Hard to house is not a short-term problem in the Northwest Territories, let me assure you. Who is the $450,000 from, Housing or Health? Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

The Minister of Health can take the question.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the issue that the Member raises is a very good one; well, it’s not a good one, but it’s a very difficult, complex issue. What we have had working together is the social envelope Ministers, which are Housing; Education, Culture and Employment; Health and Social Services; Justice; and Municipal and Community Affairs. We’ve put in a supplementary appropriation for this winter to deal with the issue of those folks over the course of the winter that have no place to stay periodically. I recognize that the hard to house is an ongoing problem and it is with us and it is going to continue to be with us. The concern about the funding for this winter was to make sure that we had the capacity to deal with those circumstances so that no one would freeze to death because they didn’t have a warm place to stay over the winter. In the longer term, we’re looking at expanded facilities. There’s a homeless coalition in Yellowknife; Inuvik is working on some plans up there with their facility and the relative homelessness, which are those people that are inadequately housed within the longer-term mandate of the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We also support the Salvation Army by way of a rent supp, and also we do fund the Yellowknife Women’s Centre and also homeless for basically transitional housing that is in Yellowknife. So we do fund different non-profit organizations, especially here in Yellowknife. So we do fund those organizations.

Thank you, Minister Krutko. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you. I’m still confused. Who funds those organizations; Health and Social Services or the NWT Housing Corporation? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Clarification, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we fund them through an interest-free loan on their mortgage. So part of their mortgage payments we deduct a certain portion. So we support them by way of funding them money towards their mortgage.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Going to my next point that I raised in my previous set, and that was emergency housing realities in view of six-month waiting periods. Now I think a lot of these obstacles I referred to earlier boil down to something, which it’s hard to integrate into government policies, and that’s common sense and some discretionary latitude for LHOs to use their own discretion to assess what is an emergency, what is a real need, what is something that needs to be responded to in terms of a housing need. It doesn’t matter whether you’re talking about people who are hard to house, or people who need emergency housing or people who, you know, it’s just not a perfect science. There’s unusual circumstances surrounding this from time to time. There’s things going on in people’s lives, there’s family break-ups, people try things, they may even move south, they want to come back, things don’t work out. Sometimes there needs to be some discretionary latitude and that’s why LHOs have boards and that’s why there are community representation on it so they can make those kinds of decisions. The Minister had mentioned before, Mr. Chairman, that they do hold houses for students, so if somebody doesn’t want to go away and upgrade their education and wants to come back to the community, but doesn’t want to go to the bottom of a waiting list again for housing, they hold it for students. Are there any other circumstances under which people could be away and get back into public housing without having to go on a six-month residency-type waiting list? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.