Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources regarding the steps and process put into place regarding this caribou issue. Mr. Speaker, I have constituents of First Nations background who say to me that some of their people are going hungry. I have constituents who own outfitting lodges that now they can’t bring in people to hunt these caribou and they say they’re going to go hungry. Mr. Speaker, the reality is if you depend on this, people are put at risk. I’m curious as to what steps the Minister has put into place to demonstrate gradual steps as opposed to just cutting everyone off and saying no caribou. Did the Minister set up a self-management, independent step where groups could monitor themselves and manage themselves at a lower incremental rate to still protect the caribou? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the challenges for this part of the country is there is no harvest management plan for the Bathurst herd. We know that back in 2006, when the numbers were about 100,000 to 120,000, the red flags were raised. Three years later, we’re down to around 30,000 animals. We are now in what I would call the red zone. There is a requirement for constructive action, which we have taken. We recognize the need to accommodate that. We have done that. We recognize there’s an impact on businesses. ITI is working with that. There are funds in the budget to help offset and then look at other measures to look at work that may be different and not tied to the caribou. There should be no reason for anyone to go hungry. The opportunity is there. It’s working in the Tlicho. We can sort something out with the Yellowknives. The key is to protect the Bathurst herd to ensure that future generations, in fact, do have a resource that they can continue to harvest. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, if this was on the radar for so long, why didn’t the Department of ENR manage what I would define as a sustainable hunt? And I would balance it equally between the local, traditional people who need to hunt this for food as well as, of course, the business type of people such as the outfitters who depend on this, who hire local people, and that meat goes to food. Mr. Speaker, we have two large impacted groups that if this was in the red zone continually, why wasn’t early on a number identified so these groups could work together and find a manageable balance? Thank you.
There were some clear signals given when the outfitters’ tags were initially reduced. The signals got worse as the census information came in. Once again, I’ll point out the complexities and challenges in this part of the Northwest Territories where you have the Tlicho Government with their Wekeezhii process and unsettled claims areas sharing and harvesting from the same herd along with other stakeholders from the south. There was no clear consensus and plan. We’re now past the point of being able to take a long, thoughtful look at this. There was a requirement for action to protect the herd and we’ve taken that measure. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, quite simply put: when did the Minister go out to, whether it’s an aboriginal hunting organization, if I may define them in that way, such as the chiefs or the bands, and certainly with the outfitters of saying what could be your bare minimum that could get you through the winter until we can get these types of boards such as the Wekeezhii board to make that decision? When was that type of discussion going to take place or when did that discussion take place by empowering them to make the decisions for themselves as opposed to government flying in and saying you’re done? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, late September we had a press conference over here in the meeting room when we had the results that came in from all the work that has been going on doing the herd census. At that point we indicated at the table with the grand chief of the Tlicho as well as the national chief for the Dene Nation, the Tlicho chiefs, and we raised the issue and put the numbers on the table, that this herd was in critical condition, that by the end of December 31st, we had to come up with some clear measures that we are going to protect the herd to allow them to survive. The plan was to have the Wekeezhii process meet that need. Unfortunately, that process is still underway and will not be concluded until sometime in April or May. In the meantime, the required action, which is why we used -- after great thought and careful consideration -- the authority that we have to respond to emergency measures when it comes to conservation issues like this. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.
Mr. Speaker, I try not to impress upon anyone that I am an environmental scientist in the area of caribou study in no way or no matter, but the reality is I am sure that there could have been an identifiable number said that we can find a minimum. That is what I am talking about; about making sure that people can eat and people can fulfill some of their traditional lifestyles without the government impeding on that type of philosophy. Mr. Speaker, is it too late for this government to find a balance to work out with the First Nations people of this area as well as finding a way for outfitters to survive through this crisis? Everyone is going to be left miserable in this process. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, everything I have seen indicates to me that there is no amount of sustainable harvest on the Bathurst that will allow the herd to survive at this point. We have made other arrangements. We have had and do have offers to help hunt outside the no-hunting zone. There are a couple of herds that, for this year at least, can sustain some extra harvest, the Bluenose-East and the Ahiak. Our hierarchy is set up. When there are restrictions, we start with removing the commercial harvest, the outfitters, the resident tags, and we work very hard and long to protect the aboriginal harvest. That is what we are doing in this case. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In Edmonton at the Royal Alexandra Hospital, there is a weight loss clinic. From time to time medical professionals have referred Northerners to those services at that clinic. There is a very accurate unit, I believe. It is for people who have weight issues that affect their health and their well-being. Mr. Speaker, I have heard from two constituents and also had spoken to Mr. Hawkins, I believe, who has heard from a couple of constituents as well, that the GNWT Department of Health and Social Services is no longer funding the provision of services to these constituents at the weight loss clinic. I would like to ask the Minister of Health and Social Services if this was a deliberate policy change by her department. Thank you.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Ms. Lee.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is not a change of policy, but it is about adhering to the policy. Weight loss procedure is not an insured service. It is not something that is covered anywhere in the country. Under our health care coverage, we pay for hospital and doctor services. Most of the situations we know of are not being done at a hospital setting. Mr. Speaker, our policy does allow for exceptions. It would have to go through a doctor’s coverage. We are working with the doctors to have a very clear clinical guideline on that. As well, in the interim, we are looking to see how we could come up with our own program to assist those who are extremely obese, and obese in a way that affects their health status, and the department is working on coming up with a program on that. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, so the Minister indicates that there has not been a change in the policy, that in fact in adherence to the policy that did exist. When my constituents began to receive services through a referral to the weight loss clinic at the Royal Alexandra Hospital and are now being told this is no longer, was it an error that they were referred there for surgery and medical attention in the first place? Was that referral made by someone who didn’t know what our policy was? Why now, in mid-treatment, is there a change in the support they received? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, those procedures should not have been approved. I cannot go into the details of the individual files, but we have at least half a dozen cases we know of. If we look into the details, we will find that the services that these clients were going to were not in a hospital or in a medical facility but in a private program like YWCA in Edmonton and such. We have to follow the Canada Health Act. Our health care covers hospital and doctor services. I know that there are lots of other services that people would like us to pay for, but we need to follow our policy and pay for what is covered under the Canada Health Act. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, so it sounds like some people managed to be referred and receive that support from the Northwest Territories, but now this error, I suppose, in policy has been caught. I am going to ask the Minister if it is possible that, since it would be difficult for these constituents, then, to carry on and complete the service that they were receiving through this Edmonton facility and I have to assume from what the Minister is saying that this may be a private clinic at the Royal Alexandra Hospital and not a hospital itself, is there a way that these few cases could be grandfathered and carry on receiving their service to the conclusion? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, the department, along with the medical community, is reviewing this program to come up with a plan that could assist its patients. I would recommend the Member and any Members in the House to have names of constituents that they would like us to consider in this review. I would be happy to receive them and get back to the Member separately. Obviously, this is not something I can talk about here. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Lee. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister: what would get obesity to the point, as she says -- I suppose they call it morbid obesity -- where it affects the well-being of the person? What would set that apart in the department’s policy guidelines from any other illness that someone could have? I don’t understand why this thing would be treated any differently than any other disease people have. Maybe some people are overweight because they are addicted to food, but if we were going to start telling people they couldn’t receive services because they had an addiction, that we wouldn’t be providing service, people with substance addictions or tobacco. There is no end where it would end. Does the Minister concur that obesity can be a medical condition that should be covered by this government? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, perhaps one day we can have a big debate on that.
Mr. Speaker, wellness includes a lot of things. It includes healthy eating, healthy lifestyle. Our program does not… Canada Health Act, for example, does not support alternative medication, herb medication, acupuncture. I think there are a whole slew of things that our people would like us to cover, because definitely it would include their wellness, also probably their medical condition. The fact is, weight loss reduction services are not part of our Canadian health insurance system. It is not covered anywhere or in any part of the country. Obviously there is an exception that can be made. It could be established that it is life threatening. That is why there is always that exception in the rule. So we are reviewing that. I will get back to the Member on that, because we are hard pressed to cover those programs that are covered under the Canada Health Act where the programs are delivered by hospitals and doctors. We can’t continue to add without putting guidelines and some programs here first. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, Mr. Roland. In terms of meaningful consultation and with the very important government that we have with the aboriginal governments, in terms of this issue going forward and a nation-to-nation-to-nation trust building relationship, from October 19th to 23rd there was a Dene leadership meeting here in Dettah. A motion was moved by Chief Edward Sangris of the Yellowknives Dene and seconded by the grand chief, Joe Rabesca, of the Tlicho Government, talked about the importance of this issue of the caribou here. They talked about having the discussions on the government-to-government basis with our government here in terms of looking at this herd and how to deal with it. I want to ask the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs in terms of this type of serious motion that was passed by the chief in terms of raising the issue to a government-to-government relationship, did the Minister act on this motion from the Dene Nation?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The process that we use at Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations when we become aware of these motions is we work with the appropriate departments to see their responses and how they would respond and work with the First Nations government or the Metis or the Inuvialuit, for example. There’s a process that is involved that we bring forward and work with them to try and work with the groups when it comes to the motion. In fact, in this particular case the Wekeezhii process is in place. Part of the Tlicho Self-Government Agreement that we work with and, as the Minister has pointed out, is a process that we undertake, as well as meetings we would have one-on-one with the affected groups and governments.
Again I would ask the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, in regard to the Dene Nation leadership motion that was passed, did the Minister act on this motion as the leadership wanted some work to be done in regard to the caribou?
As a result of the motion and motions prior to that, in fact as early as 2007, the importance of caribou was raised that we as a government from those motions worked with the First Nations aboriginal governments to come up with, number one, the accounts that were in dispute initially. We worked with them to get that information together using traditional knowledge and modern science and supported them with resources to help do the accounts. As well, that then set in place the initiatives that were undertaken by governments by reducing some of the earliest, when it came to tags or else those that qualified for resident harvesting, right up to the point where the last group affected were the aboriginal harvesters and we’re doing work to accommodate. So, yes, we have worked with those motions.
The motion speaks to a long-term plan with the GNWT on a government-to-government basis in terms of the basis to recognize the inherent right to hunt and the authority in terms of this issue here. Has this government here sat down with the Dene Nation leadership and talked about this issue as the motion dictated in terms of our saying this is what they wanted to do? Has this government done this in terms of answering to this motion that was passed on October 19th to 23rd, 2009?
The motions that are passed, whether it is by the Dene Nation or the regional leadership or the specific regional government that brings forward initiatives that we sit down and respond to those motions. We have agreements in place. For example, through the co-management boards, through the settled areas, whether it’s the Inuvialuit, the Gwich’in, the Sahtu, and through the self-government process of the Tlicho. In the unsettled areas there was a number of discussions held. There were meetings, as well, around this issue as well as at the larger meetings at the Dene Nation itself talking about the importance. I believe the Minister of ENR has provided a list of meetings that were held around caribou, around their importance and the need to take some action around conversation. So, yes, I would say we have acted on those and continue to do so as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Roland. Time for question period has expired, but I will allow the Member a final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, based on the government’s list in terms of consultation, he listed off a bunch of meetings. Mr. Speaker, the Minister has certainly done a lot of meetings. He’s shown me a very impressive list in terms of meetings. However, I believe that, Mr. Speaker, this will not stand up in the Supreme Court of Canada in terms of meaningful consultation. There is one process of doing meaningful consultation. The others tell him this is what we’re going to do and leave it at that. So, again, I ask the Minister in terms of building a relationship with the aboriginal governments on bigger issues that the Northwest Territories has to face, how is this going to ensure that the aboriginal governments should trust this government because of its own interest? How can we assure the aboriginal governments that we have their best interest at heart in terms of their rights and their culture and their way of life?
Mr. Speaker, it’s our responsibility as a government to make sure we work with the partners in the Northwest Territories. In fact, the list of meetings the Member has shows our commitment to work with the aboriginal membership across the Northwest Territories, whether it is around water, land, caribou, the many examples that we’ve worked in partnership developing either legislation or implementation plans about how we can serve and regulate the use of wildlife in the Northwest Territories. So we continue to do that.
As for seeking my opinion about what would qualify as satisfactory engagement in front of the Supreme Court, I’m not a lawyer, but I know with what we have and the practice we’ve put in place as the 16th Assembly, we do engage, we do consult and we work to accommodate. In fact, Minister Miltenberger talked about the accommodation factor with the Tlicho, and that’s been presented to the Akaitcho about harvesting outside this zone. So initiatives have been undertaken to try to make sure that we can serve and have caribou for the future generations. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the following document titled Youth Smoking in the NWT: Descriptive Summary of Smoking Behaviour Among Grade 5 to 9 Students. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Wednesday, February 10, 2010, I will move the following motion: now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Weledeh, that the government develop an anti-poverty strategy for the Northwest Territories; and further, that the Premier initiate discussions towards this strategy in partnership with business, organizations and those living in poverty; and further, that the government and partners start by developing a definition of poverty; and further, that the anti-poverty strategy identify specific, measureable targets, with clear, cross-departmental mechanisms for coordination and integration of actions; and furthermore, that the government provide a comprehensive response to this motion within 120 days. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker,
Whereas caribou have been a source of food and a means of survival for aboriginal people of the NWT since time immemorial;
And Whereas caribou herds migrate across jurisdictions and across international boundaries;
And Whereas the Government of the Northwest Territories has scientific studies that show a decline in caribou herds and deem it an emergency measure under the conservation process to ban all hunting of the Bathurst caribou herd within a specified geographical area;
And Whereas Dene Nation Resolutions #10/11-003 and #09/010-014 propose a means by which all parties can get back on track and be respectful of aboriginal culture and all Northerners by recognizing:
“the Dene will enter discussions and develop a long-term plan with the GNWT on a government-to-government basis to recognize both the inherent rights of the Dene to hunt and their inherent authority to design and implement solutions that will protect, preserve and ensure the survival of caribou for future generations.”;
And Whereas aboriginal people have deemed the GNWT’s recent actions in this regard to be an infringement on their aboriginal rights and treaty rights to hunt for survival and ceremonial purposes;
Now therefore I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that the Government of the NWT set a place and date to have an emergency meeting with the aboriginal people of the NWT to consider their consultative process and come to an agreement regarding the caribou;
And Further, that the Government of the NWT look at alternative measures to resolve the issue.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. There’s a motion on the floor, The motion is in order, To the motion, The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.
Mr. Speaker, I raise this issue due to the number of people I’ve been talking to in my region around this area here in terms of the importance of aboriginal people having access to their food such as caribou.
Mr. Speaker, I’ve talked to many people who know why it’s very important for us to have this food for our survival. People have said that we’ve been surviving for thousands and thousands of years. Mr. Speaker, actually, I read in a book called “The Alpine Hunters.” There was an ice patch study done in the Mackenzie Mountains that showed evidence from our elders and from scientific data, that there were hunters hunting caribou 5,000 years ago in the Mackenzie Mountains. There was evidence that came back through the scientific analysis of what was found in these ice patches.
Mr. Speaker, I say that the aboriginal people have always hunted for caribou. It’s in our blood. It’s in our life. As one of the elders in Colville Lake said, if you take the caribou away, you are destroying our way of life. You are destroying our life, he said. So, he said, you should not let this happen. We should be working on this issue how we can work together on this important animal here, Mr. Speaker.
Caribou don’t know which jurisdiction is which jurisdiction. They migrate. People in Colville Lake locate themselves right on the migration route of their caribou. So one of the questions I ask is how do we know if this is the Bathurst, Bluenose-East or Bluenose-West? When did we start labelling the caribou? We don’t know, Mr. Speaker.
One of the things that I wanted to say in terms of this motion here is I think we need to really strengthen the consultation process; meaningful consultation. This is why a lot of people are angry. A decision was done in the middle of some good discussions. I am not too sure if a meaningful consultation process was carried out.
The other point, Mr. Speaker, is the labelling of our herds. When did we start classifying this is the Bluenose-East and this is the Bluenose-West? How do you know if it’s Ahiak, Bathurst, Beverly, Porcupine? We start labelling different caribou.
Mr. Speaker, this is not only about the Dene in this area. There are over 1,000 Inuit in Yellowknife. There are Metis in Yellowknife. This is an assault on the culture, on a way of life, on people. There are lots of aboriginal people in Yellowknife, lots in the Sahtu, in Yellowknife. That’s down the region here. This animal was brought up with us. It’s part of our life. It’s in our blood. Traditionally, elders have talked about this animal. There’s no argument from this side here to say yes, we need to look at it, because it shows that we need help.
I haven’t yet seen evidence in terms of the mining, what they have done to this herd. The calving ground is north of the mines. There are big diamond mines up there, three of them that pour billions and billions of dollars. Thousands and thousands of trucks that go up there to those diamond mines, six minutes apart at one time. That’s incredible that we have, in the name of the big dollar to support our economy. That is incredible. I wonder what those poor, poor animals are thinking. How they can survive up there with all that blasting, blowing up the rock, the ground, the vibrations that go across this land. It scares them. What happened to all those herds in those years? One year they’re up to 1,000; next four or five years they’re down to a few hundred. So should we trust the government in terms it’s in their best interest?
Mr. Speaker, there were motions on this in terms of this issue here. The last point I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is that, yes, we do like food. Caribou has given itself to us. Elders teach us how to use it. But, really, the issue for me is about our culture, our way of life, our values and beliefs that caribou has given us. That’s what the issue is. It brings a lot of unresolved issues when you tell a nation of people you cannot do this, you cannot do that, we want you to do this. We have heard this for so many years in our communities. And all that they say is: how can they tell us we can’t hunt caribou? That’s what they’re telling us. They’re crazy to tell us we can’t hunt caribou. We should be working out a process.
Mr. Speaker, I bring this motion because the bigger picture is no matter who wins on this issue here, how are we going to continue building a relationship with our most important partner, the true people of this land, the aboriginal governments who own this land? How are we going to go forward on some big issues like devolution and resource revenue sharing? I think we’re going to have to restart. With this motion I hope it gives an opportunity for the government to look at this again, look at this issue again and look at the consultation process that was rolled out. I’m happy this motion is on the floor. I’ll allow other Members to speak on it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. I’ll go to the seconder of the motion, the honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I, of course, support this motion. I believe that we didn’t have to be here today. I still stand firm in the belief that had our leadership, our Premier, our Minister of ENR, attended the Dene national leadership meeting in Fort Simpson, we would have come a long way to resolving this issue. But because of the attention, or by the inattention of our government, we have to give it attention, Mr. Speaker.
For me it has always been critical, the fact that aboriginal people are not allowed to hunt. I respect the need for preservation and conservation, but, at the same time, Mr. Speaker, aboriginal people have the inherent right to hunt for food. In fact, our NWT Act says it loud and clear that nothing in the NWT Act, the ordinances, can be made to restrict and prohibit Indians and Inuit from hunting for food, Mr. Speaker. This is the case that we are here today. I believe that the Minister could have… There was a need for a ban. There was a need for a no-hunting zone, but there was no need to restrict aboriginal people from hunting.
I think the government and I think the Minister is wrong in this case. We’ve got precedents all across our great land of Canada, even with depleted species. Aboriginal people go to court and they win all the time, Mr. Speaker. It’s not because they want a wholesale slaughter and make animals extinct, Mr. Speaker, but there is an allowable harvest level that can be achieved for most herds or most species.
I believe that the Minister acted in haste. I don’t think he made the case to myself or to the aboriginal leadership that this is a case where this herd is extinct. In fact, thinking out loud, for myself, for some of the chiefs, I think that 25 caribou per community was something that even that bare minimum is something that the communities were looking at. That’s subsistence hunting, and that’s all the people asked for, Mr. Speaker.
Once again, I do not believe that our GNWT had the power to restrict or prohibit aboriginal people from hunting for food. However, it’s done. But I believe it can be undone, Mr. Speaker, to salvage whatever’s left of the winter hunting season. It’s not lifting the ban, but to allow aboriginal peoples to hunt there, Mr. Speaker. I think the fact that the media, our North has a lot of attention on this issue and the reason why my colleagues have been speaking about this issue over the past couple of weeks is because it’s a very dangerous precedent what the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources has done. It’s something I cannot support. I said it right off at the start and I think that this decision has to be reversed when it comes to First Nations people. The ban should stay. The no-hunting zone should stay. But what should not stay is the right to restrict aboriginal people from subsistence harvesting, Mr. Speaker.
The motion calls for us sitting down, coming to... With willingness we can work towards a solution. But I’m still upset, Mr. Speaker, that we didn’t have to be here today. It could have been done a couple weeks ago. At the same time, I really appreciate Mr. Yakeleya for moving the motion forward. I stand firmly behind that and I’ve got no problems seconding it. I’m really happy about the support that we’re getting from our colleagues for this motion, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu.
