Agreed.
Sergeant-at-Arms, escort the witnesses in.
For the record, Ms. Lee, could you introduce your witnesses?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have with me to my right Deputy Minister Paddy Meade. Further right is Mr. Derek Elkin, director of finance. To my left is Mr. Dana Heide, assistant deputy minister of operations.
Thank you, Ms. Lee. Welcome, witnesses. We’re on page 8-7. Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I seek unanimous consent to go back to page 8-29.
The Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to page 8-29. Is committee agreed?
Agreed.
Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Earlier when we were considering this department we had a number of questions that we had asked. I’d like to just follow up on some of those questions.
One of the questions we were asking relates to the Minister’s response to the Child and Family Services review and was about publication information. We had asked for some plain language information, how-to resources, things on the website, pamphlets and whatnot to be done up and it was consistent with one of the recommendations we had in the act. I was wondering if the Minister could tell us if they are going to move on that. Whether we can expect to see some of those plain language how-to guides and resources for print and distribution to people throughout the Northwest Territories done during the 2011-2012 fiscal year.
Ms. Lee.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I responded to the chair of Standing Committee on Social Programs on that issue on February 25th and indicated that we will implement that.
So we’re happy to see that commitment. We’re happy that’s going to get done.
The second one we talked about previously was the policy and standards manual. When we were out talking to the people, including staff, it was made clear that a lot of work needed to be done to the policy and standards manuals to make them a little bit more clear, a little bit more plain language, make it easier for the employees to understand, but also clarity for, once again, residents of the Northwest Territories. We were at that time seeking a commitment from the Minister to include these revisions in the 2011-2012 main estimates for completion or at least noticeable completion or progress during the 2011-12 fiscal year. I was wondering if the Premier can let us know the status of that request.
That item also was requested by the Member in the standing committee and I responded to the standing committee on the same day, February 25th, that we will implement that within the upcoming 2011-12 fiscal year using our own resources. That would also include consulting with child protection workers and managers. Thank you.
I’d like to thank the Minister for the commitment to get that done. Once again, I think that’s incredibly important for our users and for the administration of the Child and Family Services Act overall.
Another area that we talked about was obviously a critical area to us, and it’s one of the aspects that made the Child and Family Services Act unique in all of Canada, and that was the establishment of child and family services committees. Currently, there is one child and family service committee in the Northwest Territories and that’s in Fort McPherson. Yet the act does say that we will have a child and family service committee in all the communities throughout the Northwest Territories. We had asked during our previous discussion that the Minister commit to five. There was some discussion during business planning, I believe it was in the business plans, that the department would work towards having five committees established in the 2011-12 fiscal year, but we didn’t see any budget line for it, and I still don’t see a budget line for it in the main estimates. I’m wondering what is the status of the commitment for five in 2011-12 as outlined in the business plans. Thank you.
Our commitment is to bring that forward into the next business plan process. Thank you.
That’s not consistent with what we heard during the business planning process this time. We were under the impression that the department was going to work towards the implementation of five. With one already in place, that means four more. Meaningful work towards implementing four more for a total of five during the 2011-12 fiscal year. I’m curious why that’s gone, why that’s no longer a commitment of the Minister as outlined in the business plans.
It is consistent with the way the main estimate is presented. There is no money allocated for the children and family services committees. Our response to the recommendation from the committee was that we do appreciate the need for that. We would like to proceed with that but in order to do a proper job of it, we need to get the funding for that. We believe one of the main reasons these committees have not been successful in being established, even though, as the Member states, that these were provided for within the legislation, is because it’s not properly resourced. To be able to do that we believe that it should be presented as a part of the business plan process and properly resourced. For that reason we are making a commitment again that we will present it as a business plan initiative for the next fiscal year, 2012-13, which process would begin almost immediately after the main estimate is approved and finished. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I remain confused. Once again, during the business planning process we understood that the department was committing to making substantial progress towards having five child and family service committees in the Northwest Territories. We didn’t see the budget line in the 2011-12 main estimates, which is why, frankly, we were confused. We fully expected to see that. As I’ve said, it’s an incredibly integral part of the Child and Family Services Act and its implementation. We’re talking about empowering communities and giving them the ability to help themselves when it comes to child apprehensions. We’re talking about implementing committees which could significantly save us money and improve results for our children, those children that are in jeopardy within the communities.
Frankly, I need to understand how it went from being yes, in the business plans we’re committed, to the main estimates, no evidence of it at all, to now, oh, we’re going to do it in 2012-13. How can the Minister commit the next government? I mean, often I hear we can’t commit the next government to this, that or the other. I’m not confident that by saying today, oh, we’ll do it in 2012-13 means that it’s going to get done. We’d like to see something done now. We would like to see a commitment to move on the child and family services committees as the Minister said she would during the business planning process. Where is the consistency? I don’t understand what I’m being told, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, the Member can be as confused as he lets himself be, so I’m not sure if I can help him with that. The fact is, and when I say that we’re going to proceed, we’re going to present this as part of the next business plan, it doesn’t mean that I’m committing the next government. We are still going to be in this Assembly as we review the next business plan. The Member’s been here for three years. He knows what the process is. We’ve outlined in our reply to the committee a number of competing priorities that the Members have presented to us and the Member knows already that the business plan review process considers lots of initiatives that come forward from not only this department but from all other departments as well. I have made it clear that my department will present this and the other item that the committee has presented as a priority item.
There’s nothing to be confused about the fact that this was mentioned in the business plan which we reviewed in September and the main estimates that are before us. It does happen between the business plan and the main estimates. We have presented detailed information about how much money it would cost for us to establish these in the communities and to properly resource them and to do it right. I really feel, Mr. Chair, that the department went a long way in meeting the demands of the committee. They asked for four things to incorporate into our existing budget. The budget is already stretched and we have offered to incorporate upwards of $600,000 from within to meet the demands of the committee and the Members. This is not just my budget, Mr. Chairman, it is our budget and the Member knows how the money flows. You can’t get blood from a stone unless we take it out of somewhere. I mean, it’s not responsible math just to say add something more on and not look at the whole picture. Thank you.
It’s easy to be confused when somebody tells you one thing and you believe it and you expect it to appear in the main estimates and then it doesn’t appear in the main estimates. We are all in support of that initiative to have five in the communities, we all expected to see it and I don’t see it. It’s easy to be confused, Mr. Chairman.
I also must point out to the Minister this is her third term and she knows how main estimates coming into an election work and business planning. It’s my understanding that as a Member of this 16th Assembly we’re not really going to have an opportunity as Regular Members to sit in front of the business plans for the 2012-13 fiscal year and discuss them. It just doesn’t happen. Once again, I’m confused why she thinks that’s the process that’s going to be in front of us, because we’re not going to have an opportunity to look at them. I remain concerned. I remain confused. It was explained to us that it was going to be done and now we’re hearing, no, we don’t have the money. We said yes, but we don’t have the money so we’ve changed our mind.
This is something the Minister committed to and I think the Minister should live up to that commitment. I’d like to understand how the Minister went from being supportive of this thing and all of us expecting it to happen to being off the agenda, off the radar, not happening. The Minister’s staff went to the communities. They heard clearly. I’m disappointed. I’m radically disappointed in this Minister’s rejection of these committees for the 2011-12 fiscal year.
Mr. Chairman, I don’t have anything to add to that. Thank you.
Next I have Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask what the Minister is planning to do to enhance prevention and early intervention aspects of child and family services as a result of our review and how this is reflected in the budget as presented here.
Minister Lee.
Mr. Chairman, prevention and early intervention, we do that in many of our program areas, but in specifically for healthy families, the Member knows that we are proposing to expand the programming to Inuvik and Fort Simpson. That is part of this main estimate. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I do indeed know that. What we had asked the Minister was to do more in terms of prevention and early intervention. I am happy to see that the Minister is going to be recommending further expansion on healthy programs in 2012-13. That sounds like good work. These are expensive programs, although I have to say I would like to debate any budgets provided to us on that, certainly not what we were told when we looked in the healthy families.
I would just like to say, Mr. Chairman, looking at our report, prevention programs are starved for resources and lack capacity to take on more clients. The unfortunate reality is that crisis cases eat up the lion’s share of child welfare resources. This crisis response mode is not sustainable. The Minister is right; this is our budget, we are together on this. We have done a lot of work on it and listened to the people. What we are hearing is much more is needed on the prevention side. We raised this. We are refusing to accept this budget until we get more in that area, which means the Minister, or we will have to make judgment decisions on where the money will come from and we are hoping the Minister will take that on. But we have tried to say this is clearly the responsibility. We need more on prevention and intervention services. Now there are a million ways that the Minister could provide to deliver prevention and early intervention services. We go on to suggest, Members heard how many parents, especially young parents, would benefit from counselling and support groups. We need to vastly improve pre and post-natal care and parenting skills, offer respite services and child care plus in-home supports and home visitation programs. Investing in these prevention programs early will reduce the demand for protection services in the near future. These are investments. That is how we see them.
I am asking the Minister again. I am informing the Minister that we need to see action for us to make progress here. We are waiting. I welcome any comments from the Minister.
Mr. Chairman, as the Member knows, there are a number of prevention programs that are being delivered within the health and social services system and the authorities. I do agree with the Member that prevention is important and that it has to be part of our work. I do agree with him that, like any other health and social services system across the country, our systems often respond to post event rather than pre-event. It is for that reason that we have worked to expand prevention and early intervention into additional communities in this budget. I do not have any more money than what I had before this Assembly in this main estimate.
The Child and Family Services Act review report did come out and we have accepted 63 out of 73 recommendations. There are some that we are saying we will need to get additional funding to be able to do that properly. We are making a commitment to the Member, that I will be putting forward as a new initiative or a continuing initiative, prevention and early intervention money for the next business plan cycle.
This budget is a government budget. This is the Cabinet budget that we are putting forward to the Members. That is the commitment I can make. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, that is not good enough, obviously, or we wouldn’t be here. We have stated in our report that there are, in fact, some prevention programs, but as I said, we found that the programs are starving for resources and lack capacity. The Minister agrees with us that prevention is a key part of the approach, but the Minister doesn’t realize that we are saying it needs to be a much larger part and that we will gain savings from that. That will contribute to our health delivery programs. It is the Minister’s responsibility now or ours to find those dollars.
Mr. Chairman, I don’t want to read too much into it, but is the Member suggesting something that we could move around within the budget? If so, I would like to hear what he would like to take out in order to pay for what he thinks is important.
Mr. Chairman, no. I have been asking the Minister where her priorities are able to shift. If not, the next step would be that we would sit down and determine that, I would imagine.
Mr. Chairman, the letter that I sent to the standing committee on February 25th is the analysis we have done. It is the government’s position on this issue. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, just to confirm, the Minister sees no other work that the department can do in the area of prevention and early intervention other than a couple of healthy family programs for 2012-13. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, the Member knows that our budget, every cent and every dollar is allocated so I am not sure where he thinks that I could come up with $1.4 million to expand this program within this budget. I know that the Members have suggested that I look at $12 million under Child Protection Program but a lot of them are under contracts already. I would be happy to provide the Member with detailed information if he had an idea about where to move the money. I could tell you right now that even one of these two move it will have a consequence.
Mr. Speaker, I talked to the chair of the standing committee. I was under the understanding that the response I provided is something that is workable with the committee and the Members on that side. I am not aware of any other arrangements that the Member has. I think the Member has an obligation to look at the entire budget and not just go with what he thinks should be done. If he has something that he wants me to move, I would be happy to take it to Cabinet upon doing the analysis. These budgets are not done by just one person. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, if I could ask for a detailed breakdown of the contract services, $12.724 million, that would be very useful. I would appreciate that this afternoon. Thank you.
Mr. Elkin.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under page 8-30, there is $12 million under children’s services, $7.7 million for foster care that is flowed to the eight authorities. Under residential care, there is $3.6 million which is for children’s group homes including the Inuvik Group Home, Trailcross Treatment Centre, Polar Crescent Group Home and the Territorial Treatment Centre. There is, as indicated on that page, $858,000 for intervention services flowed to the authorities.
Next I have Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a very similar line of questioning as my colleagues, maybe just to clear something up that the Minister has brought open here in the House that felt that this would not be a problem with me. I had indicated that I was optimistic about this, but once we took a more detailed look at it, it was not something that I too am comfortable with. I see this as a fairly simple process, actually. I want to talk first about child and family services committees that our Standing Committee on Social Programs talked about. That was the establishment of five more communities that would go into the business plan for 2011-12. When we got together, the question was the cost. I don’t believe the cost of establishing these committees at the cost that was provided to us by the Minister. We are looking at this. It seems like we have done a whole bunch of work as a committee. We travelled around the communities and we got some recommendations that we thought were going to make a difference. There was obviously an issue with this whole system and the way the child and family services was being run. That is why there were so many kids in care and there are kids in the wrong cultural not in their home, basically not in their home communities, not in culturally that is foster homes. Many of them are good foster homes. I am not putting down the foster homes, but many of them are issues. We heard right across the Territories and all the small communities that didn’t like the idea of kids going into foster care and then being removed from the community and so on.
We provided options in recommendations in the report, one of them being child and family services committees. I thought the department would look at that, take a look at the five communities that had the highest apprehensions and then take that money instead of having the kids in foster care and develop committees, not balloon the costs for each committee and then provide it back to us and say you can’t do anything with it. That is not something we had expected. We thought that these were good recommendations that came that we thought would improve things over the long run. If we are not going to do anything, then why didn’t we just learn that at the very beginning?
We have to make recommendations. We went through the review. We are making recommendations. If the department doesn’t want to do the key issues that we felt were going to resolve some of the longstanding issues with the total area of child protection, the whole child and family services, then we should have been told that right off the bat.
It is no use doing the review because we don’t have the money to do it. We know the health budgets were tight. These were recommendations where we felt that money could be moved into other areas that would be lessened by these actions, by creating committees in communities where there are the highest apprehensions that would be the cost of foster care would go down. Then we run these committees and now attempt this and then do the early intervention. That is the same thing. If we are going to add, and we didn’t ask to add the two more healthy family programs, we asked for early intervention and we asked for prevention. There could be all kinds of things involved in that. Now it’s a good idea to expand the Healthy Families. We thought that that was a good program. There are two more in expansion. I don’t recall us saying that we would go into Fort Resolution or Lutselk’e with the committee. If the department felt that this was feasible to go into the regional centres because the regional centres are the bigger communities and the bigger communities are where the higher birth rates are and the Healthy Families go from the time there is a pregnancy up until, I forget the age, but I think something around preschool and then they work with these families. We’re in communities where there are higher birthrates, then we’re probably hitting a majority of the communities and then the prevention in the long run again pays money down the road on having healthier families and you don’t have so many issues later on and these groups are actually working with the families. To me it seems like we should be looking at this area, that’s why we’ve gone back to 8-29. Look at that budget and figure out how we can do this. Then let’s take another look at the numbers. Has the department take another look at the numbers. These numbers here seem to be very high. Why would we need $125,000 to train a child protection worker in each community where we’re trying to set up a committee? Why?
Anyway, I’d like the Minister to respond to some of that.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister Lee.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to just remind the Member, who is standing committee chair, that I agree with him and I said that in my letter on February 25th that the prevention, and I quote, “the prevention oriented recommendations of Standing Committee on Social Programs will, in the long-term, have a positive effect on these expenditures.” I agree with him. The standing committee review of the CFSA and those recommendations about prevention and increasing child and service committees and doing more of that work, I agree with him that that is a positive step and I’ve said that.
Now the issue here is that the committee is saying that you should expand this program now and you should do that by finding savings from within because prevention will save money. I think that ignores the staggering effect it has in prevention work and what’s already there, because we already have children in foster care and if you were to take this money out of that $12 million, the money that is allocated to kids in foster care and the families that are taking care of them, we have kids in Trailcross, we have kids in residential care, we have kids in care and we have to pay for them this year.
So if you’re going to take any of that out of there, I don’t have money to take out of there so that I can create the children and family services committees this year. That’s what I’m telling you. I agree with you; in the long run that is the right way to go. So children and family services committees, we have worked on this for the last 10 years because the legislation provides for that, but no Legislature has ever approved money for it. So coming forward in the next business plan, this will be the first time when we will actually go to business planning and ask for money, but we need to do it properly. To have children and family services committees to work, most people that want to sit on it would like to be paid to do that. They also want to be trained to see what the Child and Family Services Act says, in how do you intervene. If you want to bring elders and community people together to do this important work, then they need to be properly supported and trained just like community justice committees.
The reason why that succeeded, and I worked in Justice when that came up in the ‘90s, they were very well supported. They had a coordinator headquartered in Yellowknife, they had regional coordinators, there were staff, there were people like Nick Sibbeston who chose to work there. That was done properly.
So I’m saying you can’t say just because you want prevention now to take the money from people that are already in the hospital sick so that you can do prevention. I think that’s the right way to go and what I’m saying is the business plan said that we will work on increasing five committees. We will continue to do that, but the letter that I had was that the committee report wanted us to get really aggressive and set up five committees this year. In order to do that I am submitting to you that if we don’t want to keep on failing, because lots of Members were here, we recommended that these committees be set up. Without putting resources in there and putting honorarium, putting program money in there, it ain’t going to work. I’m asking you to give me two or three months to put this into the business plan review. For you to say it should be easy for you to just move $1.5 million, I don’t know how anyone gets that. It’s not that I don’t want to do it.
Thank you, Ms. Lee. Your time is up. I can put you back on the list if you want but I’m going to go to the next person on the list. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hard to know where to start here. I listened to the Minister answer Mr. Abernethy’s questions with regard to the business plan and what we thought was there and what apparently is not there anymore. The Minister just mentioned, and I am reading from page 42 of the Health and Social Services business plan, and it says work with communities to establish child and family service committees and at least five more communities in this business year. That’s from the business plan which Social Programs committee spent a great deal of time discussing, debating, getting information on in September of 2010. I have to ask the Minister, if that phrase is in the business plan, what does it mean to her in terms of money?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Ms. Lee.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I clarified that in my letter to the committee and all the Members on February...actually, this morning. The five committees that we’re talking about in the business plan is to do it the way we’ve been doing it, which is to have no money in it. That’s not new. There have been no monies to set up children and family services committees. Okay? So we will continue to do that. But we have seen very poor results out of that.
I want to say, the CFSA standing committee report said that you would like us to get a lot more aggressive and have a more robust program. You want us to set this up, five committees, and make it work. What I’m proposing to you, to make it work, it will take some money, and I don’t have new money in the budget.
I guess it’s an issue of how we interpret words. To me, establish child and family service committees means that you will work to establish those committees. The word “work” is in there. The verb is in there. To me there’s an action involved in that. The Minister states that they intended to do things as they have done it in the past. Well, that’s no action at all. One child and family service committee was organized in Fort McPherson. It fell apart. It’s maybe gotten back together again. I fail to see how this statement, an action to work with communities to establish committees, doesn’t indicate that there will be some work on the part of the department. Work on the part of the department translates into money. Time is money. Staff would have to be doing something. I really fail to understand how the Minister can say that this action is here but it’s not going to cost any money. In my view that has been done in the last five or 10 years and it has translated into zero. If you’re not doing anything, absolutely you’re not going to get any results.
I really am distressed that we approved the business plan as a committee. I certainly did, as a member of the committee, based on what was on the business plan. I, unfortunately, believed what was on the paper. I don’t know if the Minister is suggesting that business plans don’t matter, that what’s on the paper can change so don’t worry about it. Maybe we don’t even need to bother to read business plans, because the department can turn around and interpret the words on the paper almost any way they want. Because that’s what I’m hearing right now. I’m really quite disturbed.
The other part that the Minister has referenced is that the Child and Family Services Act review report suggests a really robust action to set up these child and family service committees. I guess it’s a matter of defining “robust.” I’m reading from the report and it says “amend the act to require the director to provide funds, salary for a committee coordinator, per diems for members’ training, and support to child and family service committees.” I think that’s the same as “work to set up committees; (b) allow flexibility of mandate and function for the committees so that the communities can create a model appropriate to their culture and situation, and (c) allow and encourage child and family service committee members to participate in the process and develop the supporting policy.” That’s not very robust in my mind. I guess if you interpret work to set up committees as spending no money, then, yes, this recommendation is pretty robust because it says spend some money.
I have to say that the Minister in her communications to committee relative to the issues that we’ve got and the lack of funding have taken the most expensive assessment of what we’re looking for. A number of times in the report I believe we referenced child and family service committees which needed to be flexible, which could be combined with other organizations within the communities that are already established. The community justice committees was one that was mentioned. There are interagency committees in a number of communities. They certainly could belong to that. There’s a huge amount of flexibility in how the child and family service committees could be set up. They don’t need to be funded to the tune of the amount of money that’s in the letter that we got from the Minister.
I didn’t hear the Minister answer the question from Mr. Beaulieu. She suggests that child protection workers need to be trained to the tune of $125,000 a year. I really have to question, if we have child protection workers that need that kind of training, they shouldn’t be in the business of child protection I don’t think. In my mind, a child protection worker is a trained social worker and I really am not understanding what kind of training they need to work with a child and family service committee. It’s a matter of being able to communicate and if social workers can’t communicate, we’re in big trouble. I guess I’d like to ask the Minister again why we have to spend $125,000 to train child protection workers for child and family service committees.
I just want to say that… And I am answering the Member’s question. The business plan speaks of not just the dollar amounts but some of the action items that the department wants to do. Dollars aren’t exactly always attached to some of those action items. It’s a business plan, it’s a blueprint where the department’s going to go, any department’s going to go for next year.
Like I stated before, I think this is about the third time I’m saying it, yes, in the business plan we said we will work to set up children and family services committees, like we have always done before. I am here admitting to you that we have not had success doing that. There were no specific dollars attached to doing that. We said we will continue to work on those. The way we’ve been doing it is we have, from the headquarters, asked the authorities to go out into the communities and work with the communities. The only community that has shown interest so far is Fort McPherson and that’s been going on for about five years. We’re still at a very delicate stage of getting it going. What we have heard on the ground from the people who want it, people who are really involved in Fort McPherson, is that they need more resources and support to do that. They would like some training to be able to work on that. Everyone would like honorarium because they know that in other committees they get money to attend these meetings. We’re just simply identifying that if the Assembly and the department really want to get this on the ground, I need to go before the next budget cycle and ask for some real money to do that.
I think it’s in the interest, actually, of the committee to make sure that to have your recommendation implemented, there has to be some money behind that. There are no contradictions between business plan and what we are saying here. We have always planned and we do continue to work on setting these up. But I believe in order to do that right, we need to spend the money.
I’m going to ask Paddy, the deputy minister, on what we mean by training the child protection workers. Sorry. Dana.
Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Heide.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The $125,000 that we have currently allocated for training, when child protection workers are currently trained they’re trained to work within a court system. They’re trained to work within a legal justice system. To change that practice to now move to more of a community system, to work with community committees takes a significant amount of changing practice. Just to bring workers in to train one round of social worker training throughout the North is $45,000 just for travel and per diems only. So there’s a need to change practice. There’s a need to train workers to support committees and to change the way they deal with children. It’s not a simple matter of saying we need to talk to communities and bring a child in front of the community. It’s changing court practice and changing how we deal with children. So there’s a significant amount of change practice that needs to take place.
Thank you, Mr. Heide. Ms. Bisaro.
I can squeeze this question in here. Mr. Heide just said it’s $4,000 to $5,000 to train one worker.
