I have a last question. It seems like we keep getting surprises thrown at us in different ways, certainly around the world now. If there was a case where a winter road couldn’t be put in because of climate conditions or weather conditions, do we have emergency plans in place for resupply? That might be Public Works and Services, but I imagine this department would be working with them on that. Thank you.
The concern that the Member raises has been very close to being a reality on a number of occasions. We are able to compensate for it by adding additional resources and making the resupply happen. But I guess in a hypothetical situation, the community that was not able to get its supplies in on time or whatever the case may be, we would probably be forced to go to the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs that has emergency measures or emergency operations within their responsibilities and we would have to look at flying or another mode of getting the product in or the supplies in.
That sort of makes common sense to me. I am wondering if the thinking has been done. I wonder if the Minister would know if MACA has been thinking about that sort of thing and putting in a sort of plan in place or at least contemplating…Sorry. Maybe I can hold that for later. Thank you.
Yes, Mr. Chairman. We would work with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs to address the issue to look at providing an emergency type of situation that would allow us to get into the community. If it is feasible, it would be forced to fly the fuel in, or if it is a community that is on the ice or along the river system that provide enough short-term assistance until the product was able to get there in the summer. But there is a committee, a working group that is made up from different departments that would look at each situation. It is something that is being monitored.
Next on the list I have Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of questions on 11-21 for the Minister. My assumption is that contract services is what they use to contract the highway contractors that maintain the various highways. How much of the 2,200 kilometres of all-season highway is done by contract as opposed to directly from DOT staff?
Minister of Transportation.
Mr. Chairman, that is a fairly specific question regarding doing some analysis. We don’t have the information right now, but we certainly can put it together or find the information and provide it to the Member as soon as we can.
The reason I am asking is I am trying to do some sort of comparison what it’s costing the department to do the highway maintenance directly and what it’s costing to do highway maintenance to a contract, specifically around Fort Resolution with Nuni (Ye) Construction. My understanding is that the contract is a fairly good contract and it’s set up in a way that you have to have machinery working in order to maximize the contract. An example that I’ve been advised of is that if it’s not snowing and in the wintertime and the machinery isn’t moving or it’s not snowing heavily, then the contract monthly amounts go down. Because of that they’re not able to maintain good management for the entire season, or year actually, that’s needed to administer the contract. I’m wondering, it seems like the community want to revisit the contract. Maybe the amounts are okay, but the structure of the contract seems to be an issue with the contractors. I’m wondering if the Minister would be prepared to revisit the contract with Nuni (Ye) Construction.
Mr. Chairman, this is a negotiated contract situation where both parties agreed on the terms. We certainly don’t want the company to have undue duress as a result of not being able to move forward and provide the maintenance as the Member is raising. I was not aware that there was an issue there. The deputy minister, Mr. Neudorf, can certainly undertake to have a sit-down discussion regarding the issues about, I believe, not being able to get out when they feel it’s required. That’s an issue we can take a look at. Thank you.
Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.
Mr. Chair, the highways on the winter road, can the Minister indicate to me in terms of the signage safety of our winter road in terms of in our region here? It seems like we certainly could use some more signage on the winter road and also the proper installation of these signs. If you were to drive down on these roads, Mr. Chair, I think you would agree to some extent in that these signs need to be properly put in place, because I don’t think we’re meeting the standards of when you put these signs on these winter roads because it still needs to be improved. I would ask the Minister what type of funding within the structure of the division in terms of having signage along the roads in the Sahtu, our winter roads, and how much they’re going to do this year and see when they can get it done with the proper installation of these signs.
The Minister of Transportation.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It’s certainly been a difficult task to have all the safety requirements incorporated into a winter road the same as an all-season road that the Member is requesting and has been very diligent about asking and raising concerns about safety. We’ve been trying to accommodate that. Over the years we’ve been putting signs to indicate the corners and to indicate there would be a safety issue as traffic was moving forward. The challenge, though, is to have the signs stay up. There have been a lot of times when the signs have been disappearing. We’ve had signs that probably are not being put up properly or the permafrost is pushing them out of the ground. We want to take a look and have that discussion to see if there’s a mechanism if we can do a better job with our own forces or maybe the possibility of contracting somebody to do it over the next while. We recognize that there is an issue there. Thank you.
I thank the Minister for his comments in terms of specifically recognizing that there certainly needs to be work done on the signage on our winter roads. I would even go to the extent that if the sign structure division can give some of these dollars to our region in terms of having the contractors do the work in our regions. These contractors put on these winter roads know the roads very well. They’re very well experienced. They know the terrain of our land. They know how to put these signs in and, provided that they’re given the proper resources and equipment to put these signs up properly, they are going to do it very good for the department. Right now I don’t think that’s happening.
I would ask the Minister again to look at this within his department to see if that’s something that could be included in terms of the winter road contractor’s duties as a contractor. That might require a few more papers in terms of having this type of direction from the Minister, but I think it makes a lot of sense when you have people on the road 24/7 doing the work on certain sections within the region. Certainly this would greatly enhance the public image of the Department of Transportation, the road signage and safety in our region. If I was to table some pictures of our road signage in the Sahtu region, I don’t think it would do very much for this department. I want to work with the Minister on this in terms of the signage. Certainly we need a lot of signage on our winter roads. Again, I would ask the Minister in terms of some very assertive road signage in our region in terms of working with our contractors, if that’s a possibility. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, we recognize there has been some difficulty getting the signs put up and getting them to stay up. Access is a really challenging issue to put signs in the ground or put signs up in the winter and to get them to stay up over the summer months is, of course, very difficult, and getting into and on the winter road in the summer is just something we can’t do. We did provide a couple contracts to individuals to put the signs up but it didn’t work out. We will, as the Member suggested, talk to our contractors that are always on the road system and maybe we can get some type of agreement for them to do this job for us. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I want to say that the department has been very good in working with our contractors. I also want to say to the Minister that the contractors are doing an excellent job in terms of maintaining our winter roads, working with whatever resources we have with them. Sometimes we feel that the budget for our contractors to do a proper maintenance routine schedule is sometimes...It could be increased. Certainly with what they are doing right now, I think they are doing an excellent job.
I think that the department has certainly seen a big increase in terms of our winter roads. I want to say that to the Minister and the staff who are working with our contractors on the winter road. I certainly want to see more creative, innovative solutions in terms of working with our winter roads. Certainly on straightening out the winter roads, clearing corners, cutting down some of the hills, there certainly could be some discussion.
Mr. Chair, the last point I want to bring to the Minister’s attention is the ongoing discussion...I have a file full here of letters between various Ministers on the Bear River Bridge in terms of go/no-go, go/no-go. I’m not too sure if the Minister could enlighten me in terms of this is one big bridge here that the people in the Sahtu were looking forward to. Certainly there were some factors that didn’t produce good results as to if we were going to have a bridge or not. The Minister has indicated to me that they are continuing to look for funding. I appreciate the department’s willingness to see if this is a possibility. In light of that, I encourage the Minister, I guess, to continue working with the Minister of Transportation and infrastructure of the federal department in regard to the economic stimulus plan that they have recently announced. There’s certainly money there that I’m not too sure if we fit. I recall that the Minister said that there are certain requirements and criteria that we don’t quite fit under the Northwest Territories, so I’m not too sure if he’s going to have any luck in terms of dipping into this economic stimulus plan in terms of bridge.
As Mr. Krutko has indicated through his willingness also for a Peel River Bridge, that there are also options out there that certainly I would be interested in seeing how we can go about building these bridges in the Northwest Territories. Certainly it has been in the books for a while, so I just wanted to, again, advocate for a bridge in my region. That will help greatly with the road transportation and the other activities that could possibly happen in the years coming down in terms of keeping the Sahtu open. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, the Member is correct when he states the Mackenzie Valley winter road is in good condition this year. I guess it’s an indicator of our economic situation, because we don’t have a lot of heavy traffic on the road systems. There’s very little exploration or development happening, so it’s a good year for the winter road. The base has gone in and has been very dependable up until now and we don’t expect it’s going to change. We should see it stay very stable for the next while.
Mr. Chairman, the Bear River Bridge is still something that, along with other bridges, will be considered. If the Mackenzie Valley Road every moves ahead, then this should be a part of it.
Mr. Chairman, the other issue regarding the economic stimulus, we haven’t got final word but we are expecting that these dollars that were indicated as part of this initiative are going to be based on a per capita. If that happens, we probably will not get much more than $5 million, which doesn’t allow us to do a whole lot of projects with that amount. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There was a program previously in regard to a chipseal program that was delivered by the Department of Transportation on behalf of the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs in regard to small communities. I believe there were some 15 communities that were identified to have work done on it and I know that because the Department of Transportation has the expertise in regard to road building, that’s why there was the partnership involved with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs and the Department of Transportation who had the engineering, the design and knew about the gravel resupply and that. I’d just like to ask the Minister, has he been in discussions with Municipal and Community Affairs about the possibility of reinstating that program?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister McLeod.
Mr. Chairman, I believe the Member had asked the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs that direct question. They have not come forward with any indication of interest to reinstate the program. Having said that, I am personally familiar with a number of communities that are now looking to chipseal the whole community through their new funding that they are receiving and they are planning to do just that. We, of course, are willing to provide any kind of advice if there’s a request made to this department. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I know that a lot of the small communities don’t have the capacity or they don’t have the granular resources to do a lot of this stuff. I think that because they don’t have the equipment and the expertise, that for them it’s a challenge. I think because this department does work with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, I think that’s something that can be done. With that, Mr. Chair, I’d like to move a motion.
Very good, Mr. Krutko. Go ahead.
Mr. Chair, I move that the committee strongly recommends that the Government of the Northwest Territories take immediate action to develop and deliver a small community chipsealing program;
And further, that the departments of Transportation and Municipal and Community Affairs take cooperative and concrete action to ensure small communities are able to access sustainable funding levels and technical expertise to achieve meaningful progress in regards to the local road surfacing in small communities.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. There is a motion on the floor and is being distributed now. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Krutko.
Mr. Chair, I believe, for one, that we do have to find a way to work with the smaller communities. I think that through the program that was previously in place, which was to work with communities to find a concerted effort between the Department of Transportation with their expertise and Municipal and Community Affairs working with communities to find a way to deal with dust control in a lot of our communities. I think that unless you actually have to live with dust in your communities, it’s not really an issue. I think that it really does have an effect on the health and well-being of the elderly people in our communities and also in regard to the cleanliness of our communities. I think that’s it a stigma that’s left on these small communities that we have to find a way to deal with this dust problem.
With the motion, I’m hoping that we’re able to pass this motion in support of working with those communities that don’t have the capacity and also develop a program that can work through the departments of Transportation and Municipal and Community Affairs so that we are able to find a way to deal with these problems with dust in our communities.
With that, Mr. Chair, I would like all the Members to take this seriously because I believe it is an issue that in this day and age, in this 20th Century, that we should not be dealing with the issue of dust in communities. If anything, we should be improving the quality. I think by simply chipsealing the main street of a community makes a difference in those communities. I think it brings pride to the people in our communities and, more importantly, they do feel that the quality of life has improved in our communities. With that, I look forward to other Members supporting this motion. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to just add a little bit to what Mr. Krutko is saying. In addition to all of the aspects that Mr. Krutko spoke of, also for the way the government is moving, in essence devolving a lot of the municipal responsibilities through the new plan to the municipalities, this is a major step towards increasing what I’d call market value of the community. I think anybody is aware that if you have a paved street in front of your property, your property is worth a lot more. I think this is a step in the direction where we will be increasing actual property values of individual homeowners in the smaller communities, which is actually a very good thing for everyone. It gives the ability for individual homeowners to borrow money directly themselves through some creation of a market in the community, then they are able to have a lot of the programs right now that are delivered by the Housing Corporation. A lot of that comes from the inability for the banks or the unwillingness for banks to lend in communities where when you don’t have streets paved and so on, sometimes they don’t see a market value. I think that when the dust is gone, then you will see the property improvements, which also adds to the market value of the various properties around the community and that. As we move in that direction, this government begins to devolve responsibility to the communities. I think it is important that this government do what it can to assist communities to increase market values. I think this is the first big step in the right direction. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Yakeleya.
Mr. Chairman, I also will be supporting this motion. I think this motion here speaks to sort of clearing the dust on these issues here. You have a program. You have the communities and municipal funding. You have expertise within the Department of Transportation and also they have studies done by the Municipal and Community Affairs office here. You think what we are asking here is through this motion here I am looking at it in terms of implementing a chipsealing program for the communities where there is expertise from the Department of Transportation which has the expertise, has the resources, and has the knowledge. With MACA, you have the studies. They have the funding in helping the communities implement a chipsealing program, small communities, so they can utilize their resources to develop a good program.
For so long, Mr. Chairman, in our communities, especially with the elders that Mr. Krutko talked about, the amount of dust that collects on their windowsills, in their houses, on their furniture, it is unbelievable where we don’t do a proper job in terms of suppressing the dust in our communities. Twenty years ago, Mr. Chairman, I talked about this, that there weren’t very many vehicles in our communities. Today there are over 60 vehicles in Tulita itself and then with the amount of driving that happens in that small little community the road sure takes a pounding. When that happens, the amount of dust in the people’s face, the amount of dust that is collected in the houses, even in our health centre. It is close by the road there. It is outrageous, in that a very good program should be able to help our communities.
I fully support this motion here. I think about my Aunt Julie who is asthmatic and that she has to keep her windows closed during the summer months because of the amount of dust that is in her house and she is complaining. She is an elderly lady who complains to me every time we go in Tulita in terms of the dust that is happening in and around her place in the summertime. She has to almost change her air filters once a week. She has to get it here at Wal-Mart. It costs a lot of money in the summer months. I think more of her and the older people and the younger kids that have to breathe in the dust when there is no dust suppression or any dust control in our communities. I look forward to something from this department, from the other departments to see how they can work with our communities and how do we implement a chipsealing program for all of the communities that Mr. Krutko has alluded to in terms of this committee motion. I look forward to some results from this motion. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. We are moving on to Mr. Menicoche. To the motion.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to speak in favour of the motion. I think it was a good program. We used to have it before with our territorial government. I would like to see the department try to make the resources available to make this manageable to deliver small community chipsealing program. I think that it is something that our government can do, one little small thing, that will help make lives better in the communities.
Quite often there is a larger chipsealing program going by one of the communities who can utilize that and to take into account the smaller communities. For some of the more remote ones that might be more challenging, but still, all our communities should be treated the same. They should be part of the big plan as well. I would just like to say I will be supporting the motion, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank Mr. Krutko for bringing it up in Committee of the Whole.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the issues here we are really facing is the fact that this used to be a MACA program and then MACA transfers the community gas money and the gas tax money, and then they say sorry, we don’t do this anymore. That is sort of one of the problems that we are faced with. That is why these motions keep coming up.
I have often said that there is a policy problem here, where the government used to do this but then they decide that now they are not in this business. I don’t think that there has ever been a heart-to-heart deciding on what government should be responsible for and what communities should be responsible for. I often question, is that money that they used to do things like chipsealing, was that transferred over to the communities? I would have to say I don’t think so. I think the windfall of things like the gas tax money that the department will be pointing at and say, well, now it is your business. You have money. I think that was a windfall above and beyond the existing funding pot that would have covered this in the old days. I think there’s a policy problem. I am not suggesting the Executive Council will see this motion every time this page comes up in every budget going forward, but the reality is that it is coming up in the last few budgets. The fact is no one seems to want to be addressing the policy problem we have here. It is about who is ultimately responsible for chipsealing. Is it the community or is it the government? In some cases, I think it is probably both. It is a shared responsibility.
I think that work needs to be done. I would say, if you heed one message from this motion, at least hear that, that between the Department of Transportation and the Department of MACA, the two departments need to be sitting down with the municipalities and start working this out to figure out who should be ultimately responsible for this. Just because one department is working as a flow-through for things like gas tax money, that was meant for other things.
Mr. Chairman, I will be supporting this motion. I suggest that someone should start having that conversation on the policy of this issue, which is ultimately who is responsible. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Not having any further comments, I will ask Mr. Krutko to conclude the debate.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I would like to thank the Members that did speak in support of the motion. Again, this motion is directed to the small communities. I think that this issue has been around since the 14th Assembly. I know that special committee, that first small communities, filed a report and this was one of the recommendations which instrumented they put in place main street chipseal program for small communities and which it only served basically in one Legislature, which was the 15th Assembly. I think because of it only having to take place in one Assembly, other communities are saying that this issue is a health issue. It is not a question about …and also having the capacity to deliver this program in a lot of these smaller communities. The small communities do not have the capacity to basically hire engineers, start doing the evaluation in regards to the survey that has to take place, looking at the gravel needs, looking at the equipment that you have to bring in to do this thing. One project you are talking about a community’s $1.6 million. I think that for that kind of money for small communities, sure, they get a little bit of gas tax money, but you are only talking about $150,000 if not less.
With the motion, it does direct the Department of Transportation and MACA to find a way to deliver a program that will meet the unique challenges in small communities dealing with dust control. Again, I will be requesting a recorded vote on this motion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Are we ready for the question?
Question.
Mr. Krutko, Mr. Menicoche, Mr. Ramsay, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Beaulieu, Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Jacobson, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, all those opposed, please stand. All those abstaining, please stand.
Mr. Lafferty; Ms. Lee; Mr. Miltenberger; Mr. Roland; Mr. McLeod, Deh Cho; Mr. McLeod, Inuvik Twin Lakes; Mr. McLeod, Yellowknife South.
The results of the recorded vote on the motion: nine in favour, seven abstained. The motion is carried.
---Carried
Thank you, committee. We are moving on to page 11-21, activity summary, highways, operations expenditure summary, $47.859 million.
Agreed.
Page 11-22, information item, highways, active positions.
Agreed.
Page 11-25, activity summary. Mr. Krutko.
Are we under marine?
