Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. This is more of a comment. We spent tens of millions of dollars on these two projects, and I, as a legislator, have not seen an updated cost estimate. I don't know what else I can say. That's just not good management. I will leave it at that. I want to ask about the strategic infrastructure line on page 243, $667,000. Can someone tell me briefly what that is actually for? Thank you.
Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The strategic infrastructure line, there's not a change in it from previous. It's due to unfunded positions and an increase of O and M spending. I am looking at it as no change, but I am going to look to ADM Brennan to just confirm. I see a difference here because there is a decrease of $133,000. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Brennan.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The $667,000 is $560,000 for salary and about $100,000 for O and M, including travel, some contracts, and materials and supplies. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate that concise response. I had understood that the department was doing some studies, research, cost estimates for small hydro projects close to some of the Tlicho communities, including Whati, Gameti, Wekweeti. Can someone tell me the status of that work? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to get ADM Jenkins to find that in his book really quickly and respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.
Thank you, Madam Chair. One project I can speak to quickly is the project for Gameti. We have done some hydrological monitoring on that since 2018 looking at doing a community-scale hydro power project. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Rather than eat the clock up here, can I get a commitment, then, from the Minister to share some more information about what that project is all about and whether there are any other mini hydro projects or work being done in the other Tlicho communities? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's a yes. The ADM did speak about one of the projects. The other one we can share information on is the Whati transmission line that is happening, as well. There are some projects that are taking place that the department will be able to provide an update as to where we are at with them. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate that commitment from the Minister. The Whati transmission line, though, has nothing to do with mini hydro. It's about bringing Snare power over to Whati at what I feel is an exorbitant cost. For the same cost, we could actually build mini hydro in three of the Tlicho communities and make them energy self-sufficient, but we will have that discussion later. Just a couple more clean-up questions if I can. My colleague from Deh Cho asked about research and development. Can someone confirm whether there is actually any research and development capacity within the Department of Infrastructure for biomass? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Some of the things that we are doing for alternative renewable energy research is funding used for academic leading-edge research and development of push technology, but without going any further, that's as much as I know on research and development. I will ask ADM Jenkins to see if he can give further information on R and D. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we do have engineers, and we have some smart people in the division. They do a lot of work. As an early adopter and now a leader in the use of biomass for heating across the territory, we have actually been contacted by territorial and provincial agencies in terms of our expert technical input into projects in other jurisdictions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Wow, I actually got through all of my questions. I want to thank the Minister and her staff for responding fairly quickly. I just wanted to note for the record that we have a wood-pellet boiler system, as well, in our home. When we put it in, it was $35,000. The prices have gone up significantly, but it is a big cost. We actually have hoppers on the outside of the house, and it's delivered pneumatically. With pressure, they can blow the pellets into hoppers, and you don't have to load the individual bags in. It's a big benefit that way, especially when you're an old guy. We need more money to do wood pellets, but even more importantly, wood chips. You are not going to get wood pellets in the off-road communities, and we have to look at technology that allows for wood chips to be used. That's my pitch to try to get the Minister and her staff to do some more work on wood chips and biomass, in general. That's all I've got. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
I will take that as a comment, and I thank the Member for sharing that. It's really good to hear that people are doing this on their own. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Since there are no further questions under this because we have gone through everybody, please turn to page 243. Infrastructure, energy and strategic initiatives, operations expenditures, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $19,030,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the new witness into the Chamber. Minister, will you please introduce your new witness?
Thank you, Madam Chair. Still with us today is deputy minister for regional operations, Gary Brennan, and we have Assistant Deputy Minister John Vandenberg for programs and services.
Mr. Vandenberg, welcome. Thank you, committee, and now we are going to move on to programs and services, beginning on page 247, with information items on page 249. Questions? Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions, I think, on fuel services. I hope this is the right area. I know in my riding, in Lutselk'e, the fuel has to be shipped in there. The prices of fuel shift from year to year. I am just wondering right now: can the Minister just explain the one item here, the actuals to the main estimates, that variance? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. When you look at the fuel services, I think that's where the Member is looking at, we had an increase of $32,000 for amortization adjustment, but there is a variance of $2.3 million, which the department absorbed expenditures in order for the fuel services division to stay within its authorized stabilization limits. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know this is a sticky point in the community of Lutselk'e because once a price is announced, that's the price for the year, but prices for fuel are always fluctuating. I am just wondering how the department determines how they keep a certain price for fuel in the communities and how they determine what rates they are going to be charging and how they arrive at that decision. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to get ADM Vandenberg to speak to this.
Thank you. Mr. Vandenberg.
Thank you. Good, I can hear myself. I thought I might have to push something. With respect to the determination of fuel prices, the fuel prices are based on a number of cost components. The cost components include the wholesale purchase price of the product itself; the commissions paid to the local community contractor for distribution of the fuel; the transportation costs of the fuel to the community; the taxes, and there are various fuel taxes that are part of that; an O and M levy, as well, which covers the cost of the overall operation for the fuel services division of the Department of Infrastructure, which includes staffing costs and office costs, various costs. All of those come together to determine the total price of fuel that is charged to the communities. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that response. If we could get some numbers back, I would like that, for all of the communities who have to have their fuel delivered. I know it's going to be different from community to community based on what I was just told here. If we could get a breakdown by community of what the fuel prices are on average in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I believe we have a list here that we can share. Within each of the communities, in the North Slave, the Deh Cho, Sahtu, and the Beaufort-Delta, in each of the different categories, we are able to classify what the price per litre is for diesel heating, diesel motive, gasoline, naphtha, as well as jet fuel. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Thank you. I appreciate that. One other concern that was brought to me by my constituents, especially in Lutselk'e, they are always watching fuel prices. They see it on the news. All of the sudden, the price will dip for fuel, and it becomes cheaper everywhere. That happens from time to time, but the prices of the fuel in the small communities stay the same. Is there ever going to be an appetite to keep with the times? If you see the price of fuel drop across the board, will the department ever follow suit and try to keep things fair for our small communities? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Really good question. I wish I could say yes right now, but I don't know for sure. I am going to ask ADM Vandenberg to see if he can help me out with that answer. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Vandenberg.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The price of fuel in the communities that we serve, the Petroleum Products Program, under the fuel services division, services 16 communities in the Northwest Territories, and for each of those, as was pointed out, there is a different cost structure, different cost component. The components are the same, essentially, but the prices to do that are different. A smaller fraction of that total price is actually the wholesale price of the cost of fuel. When we see fuel fall in various parts of the country, what we have to understand is that the cost of our local contractors to distribute the fuel in the communities, the cost of transportation, the cost of our levy, our various overhead costs, they do not really change very much. Even though the price of fuel, the wholesale price, may change somewhat, the price change for the communities as in what they pay, what the citizens pay, does not change that much. I don't know if that answers the question.
