Agreed.
Total department, not previously authorized, $172,000.
Agreed.
Does the committee agree that Supplementary Appropriation No. 2 (Operations Expenditures), 2009-2010…Mrs. Groenewegen.
Sorry, Mr. Chairman. I was wondering if we could return to an item on page 15.
Does committee agree that we go back to page 15?
Agreed.
Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had some questions on the $86,000 to provide funding for the costs associated with the Government of the Northwest Territories participation in the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference. I would like to ask the Minister for more detail of what comprises the $86,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We budgeted $50,000 for travel, $29,720 for accommodation, $6,170 for per diems, which gave us $85,890 and was rounded up to $86,000.
How many people will be attending on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories at the climate change conference in Copenhagen?
We’ll have one of our staff tied to the federal delegation paid for by the federal government and then we will have seven people: Premier Roland, myself, three MLAs and two staff. Thank you.
So, Mr. Chairman, at $50,000 for travel, is most of that airfare or is that for ground travel and everything when they get there? Because seven people at $50,000 for travel, that works out to over $7,000 per person and I don’t think it costs that much to fly to Copenhagen.
I would assume it covers the ground transportation and everybody is going to be travelling economy, so if we don’t spend all the money, then it will be returned unspent. Thank you.
Well, that’s good. Then we should expect to see about half of that money from the travel come back into the budget. So we’ll look forward to that when we see what the returned amount is when they return from the trip, because I think $50,000 is probably a little overestimated on the travel piece. Thank you.
We’re all travelling economy, so we’re going to try to put the taxpayers’ money to the best possible use. Thank you.
That’s good and I appreciate that and I thank the Minister for that. Initially when we were trying to get a third member from our committee to attend, we were told that we should pay our own way and I asked how much it would be and he said $86,000 divided by six. So it looks like they’ve got their budget under control here and apparently a slight change in schedule and more people can go and they’re paying less money for airfare. Travelling economy, that is truly impressive and I’d like to thank the Minister for that. Thank you.
The Member is welcome.
---Laughter
Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you. Just on the question in terms of the amount we’re spending and the magnitude of this conference, I guess I want to ask the Minister what are we going to get in terms of this budget item here, participating at the conference.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a meeting of global proportions to do with one of the most pressing issues of our time, which is global warming, climate change. There’s going to be a whole host of critical meetings from the heads of states for the countries to meetings that will involve the Premier, meetings that will involve myself and the MLAs that are going to be attending. There’s going to be an opportunity to have meetings with all the circumpolar countries to talk about issues related to climate change in the circumpolar world. There’s going to be an opportunity for us to make the case about the North and it’s going to be a unique gathering of people from all around the world trying to come to a consensus and it’s going to set the stage, I believe, for probably another major meeting. But it’s an opportunity where, given all the concerns we have with global warming and climate change, all the things we’re struggling with, that we think it’s very important to be there along with the federal government. All the jurisdictions are going to be sending delegates and it’s an important opportunity and venue where we want to be there so that our voices can be part of the discussion. Thank you.
I was watching the Knowledge Network TV the other day and they did have a segment on the upcoming Copenhagen conference and they’re expecting delegates from around the world to be there. They’re going to showcase some of the alternative energy initiatives that Denmark is going to do there. Certainly if there’s any that may enhance the North in terms of this issue here, I’m supporting the Members to go over there and see what kind of impact they would have at the Copenhagen conference.
Mr. Chair, I’m also aware of several of the governments having various promotional events to signify the upcoming conference. A couple of governments had their Cabinet meetings at various unique locations. Just a thought of even this government here having their Cabinet meetings somewhere in the Arctic just to showcase that we mean serious business. I’m not sure if that’s something that this Cabinet wants to do in terms of going up to the Arctic and having a Cabinet meeting there on the Arctic Ocean to signify the importance of this Cabinet. Just a comment.
Mrs. Groenewegen.
Mr. Chairman, I’ve been just thinking about this $86,000 budgeted for the trip to Copenhagen. Now I understand at some point in time the supplementary appropriation has to go to print, but wow, $25,000 out of $86,000 is going to be put back. That’s a big percentage off on the estimating of this trip. I know maybe at first they were going to fly business class and now they’re not and they’re taking an extra Member, but $25,000 out of $86,000 off on this and I guess what I’m wondering about is the Minister says, well, they’ll put the money back. How do they put the money back? Is he sure it just doesn’t turn into, like, some kind of mad money for the Department of ENR? Because, I mean, this would involve having to put a supplementary negative number back in here to ever show this. Like, how do we track that? If they are $25,000 off on an $86,000 supp, I mean how many of the other ones have they been 25 percent off and when did that money ever come back to the department? Because that’s concerning.
What process, what transparent process would we actually see that? How would we ever know if that money came back? Because you’d never enter a $25,000 return of the funds for that one particular activity on as a negative on a supplementary appropriation. So I’m just curious about process here. Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can provide a detailed accounting of the cost of the trip and in one of the supps coming up we could come back, if necessary, with a negative supp.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Okay, and I would appreciate that and it would be good to see that, but I hope this isn’t indicative of a regular practice of overestimating stuff that comes up in a supplementary appropriation and then that money just going to the department and we never ever track it or see it again, because we rely on those estimates that are given to us. We take them at face value. So I hope this is an irregular, extraordinary situation and not common. Perhaps since the Minister is the Minister of Finance, he could comment on that. Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Looking back over the years it would seem that our bigger challenge is the tendency, especially on capital projects, to underestimate and it’s something that we’ve worked very hard to come up with a process to be more accurate. This particular trip is unique, one of a kind.
A couple of years ago I was in Italy and I remember paying $10 for a cup of cocoa. So when I looked at the per diems, I thought for the amount of time we’re all going to be there it may not be a lot and I know our hotel rooms, for example, are to us very expensive but the norm, probably, in Europe. But we’ll do an afore counting for the Member and just a reassurance that we take our budgeting very seriously and try to be as accurate as we can. Thank you.
Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you. I normally wouldn’t be encouraging the government to spend more money on international travel, but since there does seem to be a $25,000 surplus, I was wondering, well, actually, Mr. Menicoche is wondering if he can come too.
---Laughter
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The number we have will fully use all our rooms that we do have booked and we’re trying to keep our costs down and because it’s there, as we indicated prior to this and we had this discussion as well in Cabinet, because the money is there we shouldn’t feel compelled to spend it all if we can avoid it. Thank you.
Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree that we do need to put a limit on it to be looking after the taxpayers’ dollar here and it’s a good debate on where that limit is. I just want to bounce off my impression of what’s happened here. Had the travel been first class I suspect we probably would have used that $50,000 and I believe the rules would allow first class travel here. So I’m seeing quite a good effort on behalf of all those travelling, to minimize the impact on the public purse and reduce those costs by 50 percent, perhaps more. So I just want to acknowledge that and encourage that whenever those of us travelling are young enough and healthy enough to be able to stand the rigours of regular travel that our public mostly uses. So would that be an accurate statement I guess is the question for the Minister and was it budgeted perhaps on first class or business class? Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Page 15, Environment and Natural Resources, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $172,000.
Agreed.
Agreed. Does the committee agree that Supplementary Appropriation No. 2 (Operations Expenditures), 2009-2010, is concluded?
Agreed.
Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that consideration of Tabled Document 18-16(4), Supplementary Appropriation No. 2 (Operations Expenditures), 2009-2010, may now be concluded and that Tabled Document 18-16(4) be reported and recommended as ready for further consideration in formal session through the form of an appropriation bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The motion is in order. To the motion.
Question.
Question is being called.
---Carried
I would like to thank the Minister, thank the witness. Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the witness out? What is the wish of the committee? Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that we report progress.
---Carried
