Which one of these on the list is a new use of space in Inuvik? I know that the deputy minister said before that there are PWS employees, I believe, still located in the office space on the ground floor of the Perry Building, so we know where they are coming from. Where are the rest of these folks coming from?
The MACA folks are in their own building, which is an old government building, so they will be coming from there when we vacate it. The Perry Building is a three storey building. We have to vacate the top two floors. Public Works is on the third floor. We are now down on the bottom floor. That’s all we are allowed to occupy. Public Works will be in there, as the Member mentioned. FMBS that was in there is now accommodated with MACA in their building. Once Education left the Perry Building, we leased space with other commercial properties in Inuvik. The public health unit I think is going to be…. Some folks are going to come from the hospital, is my understanding.
Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you. Those are all the questions I have for now.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Any further questions? Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Aumond mentioned there is going to be swing space. What’s the use of that space? Is that for future expansions or so when people move out of other facilities, they’ve got a place to stay? Is that what this is?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Aumond.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The use of swing space is something that we work into our office space standards. Right now, if we have to do any renovations to leased space, we don’t really have any other place for these people to go. If there’s not a lot of space or if some departments at MACA or Public Works or any other people who are going in there require more people or more employees or more staff, then we have room for them. We need to accommodate for some growth, but the intention, again — and the commitment has been made — is that other than the people who we have identified, we’re not intending to move anybody else out of leased space in Inuvik.
A number of months ago we had a similar discussion in regard to the Department of Environment, where they moved out to Shell Lake and were in the facility where they were renting space, yet they had the department check to see exactly what is the vacancy rate in Inuvik of retail space.
We have never checked to see what the vacancy of retail space would be in Inuvik.
Mr. Chairman, there are quite a few facilities in Inuvik that aren’t really operating at their full capacity. I know that there are offices that are underutilized in Inuvik. I’m wondering: as a department have we done due diligence by way of finding those other facilities that could be reformatted so that the departments that you mentioned could be considered within facilities in the Inuvik rental market that are already there?
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Public Works has done the analysis and evaluation and has put forward this option as the best one to proceed with.
Mr. Chairman, in regard to an option being the best one, I believe we had the same battle going back to the 13th Assembly regarding the Lahm Ridge Tower. That asset had been sold off, because the government said they had no use for that facility. They got rid of it, and the battle over that thing…. Also look at the capital cost of the Perry Building. That thing’s been a cash cow ever since we built it. I think the cost of maintenance, renovations, upkeep and whatnot, taking into consideration all those long term costs…. Has the government thought that in some cases we should maybe allow the private sector to provide these things and also to stimulate that economy in those deprived areas in the Northwest Territories?
I would like to again ask the Minister: have you done due diligence to ensure that the private sector is not going to be put in a situation where they make a major capital investment and then find out that government seepage by way of staff and programs, leeched to each office in government facilities, will have an impact on that market in Inuvik? Inuvik isn’t that healthy right now, especially with the whole pipeline in the next couple of years, which could have a major impact on that economy. So have you looked at doing due diligence? The present regime has basically made capital investments by way of buying into that market not knowing exactly what the implications of this is going to be on that sector.
Mr. Chairman, once again, the assessment was done. The staff in the Perry Building are some of the folks that are going to be relocated, because the condition of the building made it beyond use. There’s a balance that we try to look at as we move forward in communities so that we respect some of the concerns raised by the Member. In this case the approach determined as the best was to redo the building.
Can the Minister release the report he mentioned in regard to due diligence that was done by the department so we can see for ourselves exactly what the contents of that report are and what the findings are by way of the effect it will have on to the private sector in Inuvik?
Mr. Chairman, I’ll commit to pulling together a package of information for committee.
Can we get that information before we conclude this department?
Mr. Chairman, we’ll get that work done as quickly as we can. Considering the fact that we’re currently before committee, we’ll endeavour to have that done by tomorrow.
With that, I’d suggest that we defer this department until we receive that information.
Mrs. Groenewegen.
The combined storage building and the office building is 47,000 square feet. The rationale I’m hearing for it is that the space that some of the government offices are in right now is old. I want to know more about what that entails, because in my community not government employees but students are in a building that’s old, and I can’t even get air quality reports, although I’ve asked for them repeatedly. I can’t get the asbestos report for that school, although I’ve asked for it repeatedly. PWS has not provided that.
To hear about an investment of this type for a building of this size because government employees are in a space that’s old doesn’t cut it for me. Until we get information to the questions that Mr. Krutko has asked and until we have a chance to discuss this further in terms of it being a priority in our capital budget over health centres, water treatment, schools…. Until we can get a sense of the priority that’s being placed on this particular project, I would agree with Mr. Krutko’s request that we defer consideration of the capital expenditures for Public Works and Services until we have that information in hand.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Before we move forward and decide whether we’re going to defer this, I’ll go to Mr. Aumond and let him answer your other questions. Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We’ll just restate the commitment that by tomorrow we’ll pull together a package of information for committee that will hopefully capture and be able to address the questions that have been raised.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just before we conclude this, I wonder if I could slip in a question on the major projects area and where they are for the focus on the deferred maintenance program.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Aumond.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We did provide the work plan for the committee. I have some information with me, if the Member would allow me to pull it out.
Yes, that’s fine.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. All right, Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee defer further consideration of the activity Asset Management under the Department of Public Works and Services Capital Estimates ’09–10 on pages 4-4 and 4-5 at this time.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. A motion is on the floor. The motion is being circulated.
All right, the motion has been distributed. The motion is in order. To the motion, Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a question. The motion reads that we’re only deferring what’s on pages 4-4 and 4-5, not the whole department. Is that correct?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Yes, that’s correct at this time.
Question.
Committee motion carried.
We’ll move on to the next activity on page 4-7. Public Works and Services, Activity Summary, Technology Service Centre, Infrastructure Investment Summary, Total Infrastructure Investment Summary: $7.075 million. Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This, by anybody’s standards, sounds like a lot of money: $7 million. I was wondering if the Minister could tell us how our expenditures on information technology capital compares with other jurisdictions of a similar size. Even to people out there in the public, even to us in here, this sounds like a lot of money. Are we over resourced when it comes to information technology services and infrastructure?
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the presentation that we provided to committee, we pointed out that the Gardner Group, which is a world leader in IT research and analytics, has determined that governments on average spend about 5 per cent of their overall budget on IMIS and IT. The GNWT, based on our budget, is below that, at between 4 and 4.4 per cent.
Mr. Chairman, this is a public forum for the public to hear the answers to the questions. I don’t need to be reminded by Mr. Miltenberger of what the committee received a report on. Unfortunately, the public wasn’t in our committee meeting. They would not have been privy to the answers that were provided. So if Mr. Miltenberger is trying to make me look stupid and my questions look stupid because “as I know” the committee received a briefing, yes, I know the committee received a briefing. I am trying to ask questions and get answers for the benefit of the people who might actually be listening out there in the public who care that we as a government need to spend another $7 million on information technology. That’s why I’m asking the questions. So thank you very much, Mr. Miltenberger. I’m aware we had a briefing. I don’t need to be reminded of that, and I don’t want my question diminished or essentially mocked because we already had a briefing.
Mr. Chairman, there was no intent to mock or diminish. It’s an important question. The percentage that the Gardner Group, which is a world leader, had is 5.4 per cent of overall budgets. The GNWT is between 4 per cent and 4.4 per cent of its overall budget.
I’d like to thank the Minister for that non-editorialized answer. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. I don’t hear a question. I’ll go to the next on the list, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also have raised this and I raise it again here. I recognize that we’re within the general guidelines of other jurisdictions and so on, but the large capital projects don’t seem to fall into that formula of coming up with a percentage. Those are mostly operational dollars. We know that we have, relatively, a very high cost for infrastructure compared to other jurisdictions.
Another perspective on this is that because we have a modest size of population and availability of these very specialized talents, we often have to contract outside of the Northwest Territories for these services, whereas most jurisdictions are able to find that sort of expertise in house, if you will, Mr. Chair.
These are important perspectives, and I think they are relevant here. We have a similar complexity of data to manage and so on, as we learned from our briefing, as other jurisdictions, but we have much smaller numbers and sample sizes of things to deal with. This is all by way of stressing that I’m looking for some real critical assessments of what we spend on the technology/data management end of things. I’ve raised with the staff, as well as with the Minister, that I’m very interested in their input on where efficiencies can be had and so on.
Again, we’re at 4.5 percent; we’re sort of in the ballpark for operations, but I would bet that our infrastructure costs are much greater than other jurisdictions, and we’re sending our dollars away from the Northwest Territories to deal with this stuff. That’s why it’s quite a serious financial issue. I’d welcome any additional comments the Minister might have on these perspectives.
Thank you. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member raises some good points. Our infrastructure costs are due to distance, isolation and transportation issues that are often higher than other jurisdictions. In terms of the IT side and information services, we are, as well, coping with highly dispersed communities and that type of infrastructure with those costs. It is, as well, that the life cycle time, as the Member is aware, of IT systems is significantly less than a lot of the buildings that we invest money in. So the renewal time is shorter. We have equal distances and all the other challenges that we have with our other infrastructure costs, plus it’s also an area where it is very specialized and hard to recruit, which requires a reliance often on contractors.
I recognize the points the Minister has raised. Often these dollars are so large that I wonder. A lot of data management now gets outsourced to other countries, even other continents. I would ask that the Minister always look for opportunities to hire people locally and deal with some of this information manually. Given that we often are dealing with relatively modest sample sizes and the numbers to actually deal with it, we perhaps don’t need these Cadillac systems for all of those data management needs.
Mr. Chairman, it’s a point that we try to keep in mind. We strip down these proposals to make them as realistic and basic as possible, recognizing the significant costs. I appreciate the Member’s concern that there are skilled Northerners we can put to work in these areas. We’re definitely looking for those. A lot of these systems we are engaged with have proprietary information and specially trained folks. It’s a constant struggle to try to do those things, but they are things we try to keep in mind.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. We’re on page 4-7, Public Works and Services, Activity Summary, Technology Service Centre, Infrastructure Investment Summary, Total Infrastructure Investment. Mr. Krutko.
